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RE: Rails to Vyazma!

 
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RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 8:23:38 AM   
Balou


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@ sveint - so what's your rail route to support any advance (if so) to the Crimea ?
@ Michael T - risky IMO, because you will have a maximum of 3 rail lines instead of 5. If one gets cut by partisans ....

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RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 9:05:54 AM   
sveint


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I don't fight in the Crimea in 1941. There's nothing there.

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RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 10:38:59 AM   
Balou


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I rather prefer to seal the Crimea at Kerch, which is not so hard if done early. I don't like to have a soft underbelly when I push towards Stalino or even further. On the other hand there probably remains the amphib landing issue (?).

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RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 2:58:15 PM   
Q-Ball


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The Crimea is a whole different issue, and a good question: Should the Germans attack into it in 1941?

First, I think it is absolutely essential to at least make it as far as the Northern Chokepoints. My game with Tarhunnas has convinced me that this much is critical for the Germans. Even more, you probably need to do this quick enough to allow time to build forts there.

If you stop at the chokepoints, you better leave good units down there, not just Romanians (unless you use the Mtn Bdes). You can't afford as Germany to have the Russians breakout and threaten your rear.

To get all the way to Kerch would probably involve the diversion of at least a Panzer Corps from the drive on Stalino. Taking Kerch does secure the Crimea for sure during the Blizzard, and simplify defense elsewhere, but that's a tough call to divert those Panzers. Ideally you can do that and take the Donbas cities anyway, but you probably can't.

The Crimea does have some population, but not that much.

I think Amphib landings are overrated. The Germans can bomb the port you just took, which puts the units on beachhead supply, and prevents reinforcements coming in. All you really do is throw a beached whale on shore that will eventually be cleaned up.

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Post #: 34
RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 3:05:28 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Landings can mess things up for the Axis in the Crimea. Unless the Axis player is very careful and devotes a lot of units to it, it is often possible to isolate units with a well placed landing and the Soviets can afford to risk a division or two to isolate an Axis corps in the Crimea.

As things stand now, there is no reason whatsoever for the Axis to risk units in the Crimea, even if it can be had for free. The problem is IMHO twofold: There is nothing there worth having, which there should be, and Soviet landings are much too large, frequent and cheap for the Soviets.


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Post #: 35
RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 3:32:51 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Landings can mess things up for the Axis in the Crimea. Unless the Axis player is very careful and devotes a lot of units to it, it is often possible to isolate units with a well placed landing and the Soviets can afford to risk a division or two to isolate an Axis corps in the Crimea.

As things stand now, there is no reason whatsoever for the Axis to risk units in the Crimea, even if it can be had for free. The problem is IMHO twofold: There is nothing there worth having, which there should be, and Soviet landings are much too large, frequent and cheap for the Soviets.



I can see sacrificing a couple units on Amphib; not sure what to do. Tarhunnas and I are playing with a House Rule limiting to 3000 amphib points, and a general agreement to keep the distance sailed to a small number of hexes. (No landings in Romania). The Crimea does expose the Germans potentially; you can cover the ports easily.

The Crimea has maybe 13-15 manpower, and a small industry cluster in Kerch. There isn't alot down there in terms of Russian industrial capacity. Was there historically? Or was it a focus mostly for control of the Black Sea?

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RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 3:58:18 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Going through Odessa is risky as you are vulnerable to naval assault. Need several Romanian coastal garrisons at minimum.


+1

This is an issue for any southern route that is taken and essentially, you are making a long term commitment to leaving several units off the line, even if you do nothing with the Crimea. Eventually, this won't be as critical as beltway routes are hooked up inland, but it would be a bit for that to take place.

As far as the Crimea goes, it is even more worthless than I suspected in this game. Unless you move into Kerch and surprise the Russians, just cutting the rail line to any port city (Odessa included) does not prevent the Russians from evacuating industry. (Both Odessa and Kerch can be evacuated in this fashion). Essentially, the Crimea is a trap in this game to suck down a fair number of Axis forces in garrison duty to guard against Russian invasions that may or may not come.

Historically, the Crimea had huge implications as far as the political situation with Turkey (at least in Hitler's mind) and also as a potential bomber base to operate against the Rumanian oil facilities. With the air model as broken as it is, it is impossible to determine if this type of campaign was possible or not in the real war. Certainly in game terms, the Axis has little response they can do since interception sucks for the most part and bombing any bomber fields in the Crimea would be problematic at best since after the first turn, trying to bomb airfields is fairly ineffective.

I think unless there are major changes, I see no need to take out the Crimea as the Axis and getting into the choke points should be a sufficient defense to screen off the area. Let the Russians commit a lot of force in a vulnerable position and see if they can get anything done against minimal Axis forces instead of the other way around.

In other news, great conversation on the rail roads.

I also agree with Q-Ball on the need for "beltway" rail roads to help shift forces in theater north and south. Makes a big difference in meeting Russian attacks.

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Post #: 37
RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 4:39:40 PM   
Balou


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quote:

I see no need to take out the Crimea as the Axis and getting into the choke points should be a sufficient defense to screen off the area.


IMO the trouble is that - if the southernmost rail line is not going via Odessa - any troops sealing the Crimea chokepoints will be far away from rail supply. Any rail line further north won't be in reasonable distance to those troops unless Krivoi Rog or Zaporo are connected, and going to Nikolaev without Odessa would be very costly in terms of MPs. For sure it's not going to be a problem during summer, but my feeling is that it's going to be different during mud or blizzard.

Beltways: I'd like to know what other people have seen with auto rail repair when it comes to beltways. So far I have repeatedly tried to lure those guys near the rail lines I want connected, but somehow and even after they were sent back and their HQ had been relocated, they always seem to remain deaf to my orders.


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Post #: 38
RE: Rails to Vyazma! - 8/2/2011 4:41:23 PM   
Balou


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Forgot to add that my beltways will primarely be build by FBDs, but auto help would be appreciated.

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Post #: 39
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