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The Bocage - 4/15/2011 3:38:38 PM   
Mad Russian


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I want to look forward for a moment. I want to start thinking of the most defining terrain feature in the world and what it will take to model it.

I don't know of a single gamer that has thought it's ever been modeled correctly in a wargame yet.

We've had some pretty detailed discussions about other subjects, so I thought since PCO is wrapping up we might be able to find something about PC4 to discuss.

The bocage and what it will take to model it CORRECTLY seems like a natural subject to bring you all in on.

So, what do YOU think? What will it take to have an accurate representation of the bocage?

Good Hunting.

MR





The formidable barriers presented by the hedgerows and the military characteristics of the Bocage seem to have taken First Army by complete surprise. Despite Allied planners' awareness of the nature of the Bocage, American commanders had done little to prepare their units for fighting among the hedgerows. Preoccupied with the myriad problems of the D-Day landings, American leaders had failed to see the battlefield in depth and had paid little attention to the potential problems of hedgerow combat. As early as 8 June, General Bradley called the Bocage the "damndest country I've seen." General Collins of VII Corps was equally surprised by the nature of the hedgerow terrain and told General Bradley on 9 June that the Bocage was as bad as anything he had encountered on Guadalcanal. Brigadier General James M. Gavin, the assistant division commander of the 82d Airborne, best summarized the surprise of the senior American leadership: "Although there had been some talk in the U.K. before D-Day about the hedgerows, none of us had really appreciated how difficult they would turn out to be."

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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 9:09:03 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 3:45:34 PM   
Mad Russian


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Here are some of the comments made concerning the bocage from the US POV:

"Despite Allied planners' awareness of the nature of the Bocage, American commanders had done little to prepare their units for fighting among the hedgerows. Preoccupied with the myriad problems of the D-Day landings, American leaders had failed to see the battlefield in depth and had paid little attention to the potential problems of hedgerow combat." They knew the bocage was there but they didn't actually wrestle with the problems beyond the beachhead and envisaged bold maneuvers across the countryside.

"Even though the hedgerows were serious impediments to offensive operations, the primary obstacle holding up the American advance was the German defense." Goes on to explain that the Germans took advantage of the compartmentalized terrain. I have read elsewhere that the Germans never figured out how to counterattack through this terrain at any scale, though.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 3:49:50 PM   
Mad Russian


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The solution was better small-unit leadership and combining arms at a lower level than had been doctrinally envisaged. Basically, pin the Germans down with indirect fire, engineers create lanes of mobility, further fires from tanks, infantry close and destroy. Technical innovations such as the Cullen device were helpful, but the real solutions were tactical and had to be practiced, practiced, practiced.


Of course, the bocage will need to be able to be breached with explosives and the Cullen Device in the game.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 3:57:24 PM   
Mad Russian


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Another shot of the Cullen Device.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 3:59:49 PM   
Mad Russian


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Here you can find a Combat Studies article on how the U.S. Army viewed operations in the bocage.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/doubler/doubler.asp

Good Hunting.

MR 

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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 4:03:05 PM   
Mad Russian


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Here is what we are looking at as being a "typical" hedgerow setting. Often vehicles couldn't turn around in the lanes between the hedgerows. In this picture you can see why.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 4:05:07 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 4:04:21 PM   
Mad Russian


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Even where the roads are wider it's very 'tight' terrain.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 5:05:28 PM   
Mad Russian


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More infantry and hedgerows.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 5:15:36 PM   
Mad Russian


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The problem is that it's not always impenetrable.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 6:39:21 PM   
diablo1

 

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Oh no don't tell me....hedgerows and bocage are going to become the new "grass"!??

Well that means you can look for this game about 2016 guys if that.

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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 6:52:58 PM   
Mad Russian


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Oh no, I'm telling you that hedgerows are going to be important, like they were in real life.

I'm amazed that you have an issue with the grass mods. What part of combat do you think vegetation takes in LOS/LOF if it's not important? You seem to think that without the grass the game would be better. Could be but the grass isn't eye candy, it's a functional part of the game. While I didn't ask for it to be implemented I can see where it makes a huge difference in game play.

As to your 2016 time frame, only a solid release date for PC4 will tell when that will be.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 6:53:14 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 7:07:29 PM   
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I'd worry about hedge rows right after I worry about the right way to do paratroops.

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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 7:50:06 PM   
Mad Russian


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I'm assuming you're discussing paratroopers actually floating down to earth. The part between plane and ground. Actual paratroop drops are a special event that added altogether, maybe, covered a week of WWII and a few divisions at most. The hedgerows effected entire Armies for months.

For me, that's a significant difference of scale, but maybe others would rather see para drops modeled before we look at how to model the hedgerows....

Good Hunting.

MR




< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 9:13:56 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 8:23:45 PM   
rickier65

 

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seems like we'll definitely need to decide how to handle Hedgerows for ealing with NWE.

Were gaps blown in hedgerows by tanks/art to facilitate advances?

thanks
rick

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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 8:28:29 PM   
Mad Russian


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They tried different solutions.

Good Hunting.

MR







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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 9:05:14 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 8:53:44 PM   
Mad Russian


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Of course the Germans weren't asleep all that time.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 8:58:58 PM   
Mad Russian


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Many units developed their own tactics for breaking through the hedgerows. Here are the 3rd Armored Division methods.

Good Hunting.

MR






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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/15/2011 9:02:25 PM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/15/2011 9:00:39 PM   
Mad Russian


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Here is the 83rd Infantry Division answer.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 12:53:44 AM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

after I worry about the right way to do paratroops


Now we're talking that's definitely more important than "grass" or "hedgerow or bocage" to me. I certainly want paratroop units more so than "grass".

Besides a very simple way to handle hedgerows was to set them on fire like my uncle told me they did.

< Message edited by diablo1 -- 4/16/2011 12:55:19 AM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 1:04:59 AM   
Mad Russian


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What unit was your Uncle with again? It's been a long time since our discussion of his participation in the Battle of the Bulge. I'm sorry to say I've forgotten his unit.

I agree too that paratroopers are extremely important. Not so much the paradrop itself.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/16/2011 1:05:38 AM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 2:19:23 AM   
diablo1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What unit was your Uncle with again? It's been a long time since our discussion of his participation in the Battle of the Bulge. I'm sorry to say I've forgotten his unit.

I agree too that paratroopers are extremely important. Not so much the paradrop itself.

Good Hunting.

MR



I was reletively young when he died but I recall something about the V corp engineer battallion.

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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 3:11:07 AM   
Mad Russian


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There were several Engineer units assigned to V Corps during the Bulge.

254th Engineer Combat Battalion
1111th Engineer Combat Group (51st, 202nd, 291st and 296th Engineer Combat Battalions)
1121st Engineer Combat Group (146th, 254th Engineer Combat Battalions)


The unit I served with in Germany was also an engineer battalion and a part of the V Corps. I was in the Corps 30 years after your Uncle's service. Lot's of U.S. Engineer units saw extended combat during the Battle of the Bulge.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 6:03:56 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

The bocage and what it will take to model it CORRECTLY seems like a natural subject to bring you all in on.

Respectfully, y'all are gonna have to give BF a shot at this.

That which merits incorporation into your future efforts is to be embraced.

As is the case with virtually everything else regarding our hobby, all else should be discarded.






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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 7:38:17 AM   
Mad Russian


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I understand BUT PCO is finished. It's time for us to consider the toughest part of the next project. Most of the German vehicles are already done. There remains a few basic models of Allied Vehicles, some of which have also already been done, unless we get to do 1940 as well.

Bocage needs to be looked at in terms of what we as gamers want to see it do/react in game terms. BFC doesn't use the PC map maker to produce maps. That means that while BFC may have a good set of answers for their game series it may not work well in PC4 at all.  The two game systems already seem to have radically different approaches to things like foxholes, gun pits, etc.

Most of the rest of the NWE terrain types are already available. Bocage is not and IMO, it will be by far the toughest to try to model. Part of the challenge lies in that it is a two part challenge. To get the natural untouched model right and then the part about blowing holes in it and penetrating it. Those two models will need to work hand in hand if the bocage fighting is to feel right.

Blowing holes in the bocage also solves problems like rat holing row house walls. If you can blow holes in a bocage wall you can blow one in a row house wall as well. That's just one example of where getting the bocage right can benefit the rest of the game.

Good Hunting.

MR




< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/16/2011 7:42:29 AM >


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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 3:44:11 PM   
Yoozername

 

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I think of PC as more of a tank-centric game, but my impressions are largely based on the first two releases. 

Still, I do not think I want a bocage game.  From anyone.  The terrain forced the warfare into a confused infantry blood-letting.  It would probably be best handled by a game that modeled individual soldiers. Or companies.  Commanding any unit in such terrain, and the modeling thereof, is just as daunting as getting the messy terrain right.

http://www.amazon.com/Clay-Pigeons-St-L%C3%B4/dp/0811726045/ref=pd_sim_b_7#reader_0811726045

I would recommend this book for anyone interested in what the fighting was like. 

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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 4:22:52 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I think of PC as more of a tank-centric game, but my impressions are largely based on the first two releases.


I think you're impressions are pretty accurate. While PCO has moved from where it started with PC:OWS which was totally tank-centric, to more of a middle ground we still have aways to go to get the game to being well balanced. 

quote:


Still, I do not think I want a bocage game. 


I don't either. That's not what I'm proposing. We aren't about to make a bocage game. From all our screen shots you should have seen by now that this particular team is very broad minded. We aren't focused on a single campaign, time period or location. I have scenarios in the release that span a period from one of the first engagements of the war to fighting outside Berlin. That's more what you will get from us. That means that the Normandy area will have a very important place in the offering.

All of June and July were spent fighting their way out of the bocage. That's roughly 1/6 of the time spent fighting the Germans in NWE 44-45. That begins to lessen a bit if we can do 1940, and I see no reason why we can't. The only differences would be the vehicle and infantry models.

quote:


The terrain forced the warfare into a confused infantry blood-letting.  It would probably be best handled by a game that modeled individual soldiers. Or companies.  Commanding any unit in such terrain, and the modeling thereof, is just as daunting as getting the messy terrain right.


Agreed it will be for the most part an infantry fight. Which will be the main focus of where PC4 is going. To bring the infantry combat model up to the same high standards that armor combat now enjoys in PCO.


It's not my intention that we turn PC4 into a Normandy slugfest, instead of that we just need to include that Normandy slugfest in the game.

What we're both saying is that it will be a nasty place to fight. What I want to do is to get the thoughts of those that have played it in other games before and what they liked, or didn't like and what we may do to get it right here.

I have some ideas. I'm sure the rest of you do too. The PC series has always been about where the gamers wanted to take it. In PCO you had a group of gamers that took it where it is now. We are just wanting the views of those that will play the game later. It's been my experience that you do heavy research before you start a project. Get all the information together before you start so you have fewer things to change once it gets going. That's the purpose of this thread. To gather information. I have the technical data. I have the photos. We know what it looks like. We know where it needs to go. But some of you may have ideas of how you think the boacage should work as well.

There will be other PC4 threads in the coming months. What to do about things. Like buildings exploding and catching fire. Do we want fires that spread? Do we want mis-ID units, which in NWE I don't see how you can not have them considering the American penchant to turn any German vehicle into another report of a Tiger engagement.

To me the obvious place to start all that was with the bocage. The single toughest part of the puzzle. Once we get that piece in place the rest should be a piece of cake.


Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 5:55:05 PM   
Yoozername

 

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The 29th Infantry certainly would agree with you.  I believe they fought in various bocage country well into August (All the way from the beaches).  They fought till they linked up with the Brits I believe.  They were still losing 100+ guys on certain days while Patton was burning fuel on road trips and tipping over apple carts.

I think the only computer games I have played with bocage are Close Combat and VFV? 

It remains to be seen what BF has done with bocage.  I believe they have modeled two types of hedgerows; big and small.  Since they still have not modeled gun depression, I can almost imagine a sherman parking right next to a hedgerow and pounding Germans on the other side.  In reality, they probably would not be seen.  But perhaps they have abstracted relative spotting to abstract this. 

edit: white phos. Must have. I read that right after d-day landing, its use was soemthing like 3% of shells. That RAPIDLY increased as it was shown to be a cure-all for entrenched infantry. 105mm, 81mm and direct fire sherman 75mm had the Germans crying 'foul'. I can cite very detailed reports of it saving the day in the bocage. Some shermans just loaded AP and WP with minimal HE.

< Message edited by Yoozername -- 4/16/2011 7:23:37 PM >

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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 7:05:03 PM   
Ratzki

 

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I wonder if it would not be better handled if it was known what the infantry combat model was going to look like. Or at least what we think that the infantry combat will look like. If PC is going to follow the road of 1:1 infantry representation like CMx2, (which I do not think is that way to go) then the bocage fighting will have to be handled very differently then if PC stays with the abstracted squad representation. Fighting in bocage should be in the game, and should be the potential bloody combat that it often was.

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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 7:18:08 PM   
Mad Russian


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The PC infantry model will have the orders process looked at. The casualty rates and it's ability to fight looked at.

The scale of the series isn't planned to be changed that I know of. What you will see are more improvements to the existing series.

The PBI has waited it's turn to get a face lift but it's coming.

As of yet there have been discussions that were a bit ongoing. They were made at times when we thought the PCK update was just about finished and what did we want to do for PC3. Now, most of the things we talked about you are getting ready to play with. PCO incorporates about 2/3 of the things we had originally discussed. You can go back to the discussion threads here in this forum and check all the things we talked about wanting to see. Then go and check the features thread for PCO. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the number of features discussed and those being brought to you in an UPDATE!

What that's done is to push the PC series forward by a game and making the series considerably less tank-centric. At least I think it has.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: The Bocage - 4/16/2011 10:34:21 PM   
Yoozername

 

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As far as the tanks using cullin-type devices...I have my doubts they could make it through the larger hedgerows which were VERY thick. The M5 tank in this pic has rubber 'flat' tracks. I assume these tanks would get up to speed and ram the hedgerow and use momentum and low gear to plow on through.


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