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Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 4:40:52 PM   
Tarhunnas


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I am in april 1943 in a PBEM campaign, and I seem to have lots of tanks in the units and in the pool, but I am desperately short of men. I have no motorized, panzergrenadier or rifle squads in the pool, but for example 155 tigers! Below is the 19th PzDiv as an example, lots of shiny brand new Panthers, but almost no riflemen. I guess I have had too many manpower losses, but any suggestions what I should do about this?






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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 6:12:36 PM   
molchomor

 

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Some things...

1)Disband light flak support units
2)Disband lousy new divisions (I disband all new Luftwaffe field divisions with moral below say 70 or so)
3)Prioritize reinforcements to important units (all my strike and key defense forces are typically in "refit" mode)
4)Use Allies to garrison cities to free up more German fighting units, scan the map for extra Hungarian and Romanian units that pop up now and then
5)Don't waste manpower, avoid going up against (incredibly overpowered and almost unbreakable) Soviet entrenched forces and let pocketed units starve 2 weeks or so
6)Micromanage railway building with TBDs so you maximize supply/readiness levels and the amount of men that are actually used in the unit in combat



< Message edited by molchomor -- 3/31/2011 5:58:38 AM >

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 10:21:50 PM   
Q-Ball


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As a note, a Rifle Squad in the pool does not represent 12 guys and their weapons. It ONLY represents their weapons. Same for Labor Squads; it is not 20 guys and all their shovels. It's just the Shovels.

When you disband units, the equipment goes into the equipment pools as "Rifle Squads" or "Labor Squads" or whatever, but the MEN in those squads go into the Manpower pool. They can then be issued new or different equipment, and sent to the front.

I assume your MANPOWER pool is empty, but you have stuff in your ARMAMENTS pool. You need both available to make more Rifle squads.

So, you have to find and free-up more manpower from somewhere. It doesn't matter what type of Manpower, as long as it's German.

I would take a serious look at disbanding the following:

1. RHQ HQ units (these should go first)
2. AIRBASE units, particularly the Army Airbase units. Stack 9 air units in every airbase; if you have some left over (which you should), disband them. You can probably ditch ALL of the Army Airbases units; that would be 50,000 men right there, enough to equip 4 divisions.
3. Luftwaffe Units

If things are real bad, consider:
4. Security Units. You can use Axis Allied for security instead, and as you get pushed back, you don't need as many Security units anyway.
5. FBD Units: They have 27,000 men each, that's alot. Maybe you don't need 5 of them
6. Construction Battalions: They also help build trenches, so this is a desparation move

This applies to the Romanians and Hungarians as well, it seems like they each have extra Airbase units or HQs, which is manpower you can tap

The Finns seem to be maxed-out already on airbases, so I couldn't find a way to get them more guys.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/30/2011 10:27:49 PM >


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 10:33:17 PM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas





A sub-question if I may please;

The 19th Panzer TOE shows that the unit is equipped with 16x SdKfz-251/10, and 17x SdKfz-251/1 half-tracks. Do these 251's carry the Panzer Grenadier, and Panzer Pioneer squads currently on the TOE. Also if this division had a full Panzer Grenadier battalion, would it also have a close to full complement of 251's (depending on the replacement situation of-course)?


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 10:45:55 PM   
Mynok


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I don't think so. IIRC, the Sdkfz1/10 was a mortar carrier and didn't carry squads. Not sure what the 1/1's are particularly for. Since the squads are motorized, I'm assuming that means they are provided with innate transport (truck?). Maybe the 1/1's are used for particular squads that will accompany the armor is close support?

EDIT: Wrong! The 1/10 carried a 10.5cm infantry gun. It's a support vehicle.


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 10:50:37 PM   
Q-Ball


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If you look at the device "PanzerGrenadier Squad", you'll see that the "Squad" has armor, and a high construction cost. The Sdkfz 251 carriers are abstracted, and included with the squad; they are never listed as a separate line-item. The "Vehicle" requirements of divisions with those units is also high, which is also an abstraction of those AFVs.

It would be too complicated to keep separate track of carriers and troops; otherwise, what happens if you don't have enough carriers? Do they walk?

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 10:52:31 PM   
Mynok


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I'd wager that a lot of 'mechanized' carriage was still trucks, no?

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 11:47:06 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

If you look at the device "PanzerGrenadier Squad", you'll see that the "Squad" has armor, and a high construction cost. The Sdkfz 251 carriers are abstracted, and included with the squad; they are never listed as a separate line-item. The "Vehicle" requirements of divisions with those units is also high, which is also an abstraction of those AFVs.

It would be too complicated to keep separate track of carriers and troops; otherwise, what happens if you don't have enough carriers? Do they walk?


I find that strange too, half-tracks are not listed in units like PanzerGrenadier and other motorized units yet, the game details infantry squads down to the number of riles? Why are they abstracted when there are factories building various Sdkfz carriers? There is a difference between an APC and a truck but, the game doesn't seem to detail this.


< Message edited by pad152 -- 3/30/2011 11:50:43 PM >

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/30/2011 11:59:39 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

There is a difference between an APC and a truck but, the game doesn't seem to detail this.


Motorised infantry squads don't have an armour value.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 10:12:16 AM   
DivePac88


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Thanks Guys for you answers, sort-of makes sense when you think of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Maybe the 1/1's are used for particular squads that will accompany the armor is close support?



I think the SdKfz-251/1 carried the the MG 34/42 on its heavy mount, either on the front (without shield) or dismounted out of the half-track. That they equipped the support companys along with the mortar carriers.


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 10:33:20 AM   
karonagames


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Panzer Grenadier squads also have a movement rating of 36 compared to 6 for foot soldiers, but I have no idea what impact movement ratings have in Gary's combat algorithms.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 11:30:33 AM   
color

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

I think the SdKfz-251/1 carried the the MG 34/42 on its heavy mount, either on the front (without shield) or dismounted out of the half-track. That they equipped the support companys along with the mortar carriers.



Actually all the SdKfz 251's had a standard MG 34/42 mounting, unless that was exchanged with a support weapon.

There is some misinformation about the SdKfz 251's in this thread so to get it right I list the correct configurations:

- 1/1 variant is just the basic variant, so the game calling it a 'MG carrier' can be a bit confusing as it implies it had something extra except the standard outfit. It would be 'the troop carrier'.
- 1/2 carried the 81mm mortar, so would act more in a support role.
- 1/9 carried the 7,5 Kwk37 which is the same gun that was found in the early Pz Iv's, used as direct fire support.
- 1/10 carried the 37 mm PaK36 gun, which was the standard AT gun at that time.

I don't think I've heard about mounting a 10.5 field gun on a SdKfz 251 though, so it would be interesting to know what source was used for that.
Could be a confusion with one of the following:

a) The SdKfz 251 1/4 (which is an ammo carrier variant) towing a 10.5 field gun, but not mounting it.
b) The Sd.Kfz 11 coverted to mount a 10.5 gun, sometimes referred to as a SdKfz 251, but that would have been a field conversion which was never built from scratch.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 11:51:27 AM   
color

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I'd wager that a lot of 'mechanized' carriage was still trucks, no?


Well, the Sdkfz 251's were halftracks, but there were never enough of them to go around so many panzergrenadiers had to do with trucks as you suspect.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 12:15:47 PM   
ComradeP

 

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As far as I know, the 7.5cm gun on the /22 was the largest gun mounted on the Sd.Kfz. 251. It was not the largest calibre weapon, as those were the 28cm, 30cm, or 32cm Wurfrahmen mounted on the sides of some variants.

quote:

I'd wager that a lot of 'mechanized' carriage was still trucks, no?


That depends on what you interpet as "mechanized". If "Panzer Grenadier" is what you would define as "mechanized", than yes, most PzG regiments simply used trucks as in 1942-1943 Schuetzen regiments in mobile divisions were renamed to PzG regiments even though most of them were still regular motorized infantry.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 12:55:48 PM   
Montbrun


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The Panzergrenadier Squads each have 1 x SdKfz 251/1 as an integral part of the Squad. The 251/1s you see in the ToE are the HMG carriers.

Brad

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 1:26:13 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

The Panzergrenadier Squads each have 1 x SdKfz 251/1 as an integral part of the Squad. The 251/1s you see in the ToE are the HMG carriers.

Brad


If this is the case, why is it that the squad does not list the halftrack's weapons or armour in its data? If the half track is not represented here, and it is not represented in the TOE, I suggest that these vehicles are for all intents and purposes not present in the game.

Is this in fact a bug?

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 1:39:26 PM   
Q-Ball


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The Germans never had enough halftracks. In theory, all PanzerGrenadiers were supposed to be mechanized, but in practice, most Wehrmacht Panzer divisions had only 1 Bn Mechanized, and most PzG Divisions had 1 or none.

Only the SS and Panzer Lehr division PzGs had full mechanization

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 1:45:16 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

If this is the case, why is it that the squad does not list the halftrack's weapons or armour in its data? If the half track is not represented here, and it is not represented in the TOE, I suggest that these vehicles are for all intents and purposes not present in the game.

Is this in fact a bug?


They are represented, a PzG squad had ~9 men, so that makes 12 with a crew of 3 for the halftrack. Two of the squad's LMG's are also actually on the halftrack I'd guess, because they have 4 instead of 2.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/31/2011 1:46:58 PM >


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 3:10:15 PM   
squatter

 

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Yes, I see what you mean ComP. Still, although very minor, it is still less than satisfactory in a game that aims to model down to individual trucks, rifles and men. The squad and the halftrack attack, and are attacked as one. They are damaged as one, treated as some kind of centaur, the body of a halftrack, and the head of nine panzer grenadiers.

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 3:58:34 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

I don't think I've heard about mounting a 10.5 field gun on a SdKfz 251 though, so it would be interesting to know what source was used for that.
Could be a confusion with one of the following:

a) The SdKfz 251 1/4 (which is an ammo carrier variant) towing a 10.5 field gun, but not mounting it.
b) The Sd.Kfz 11 coverted to mount a 10.5 gun, sometimes referred to as a SdKfz 251, but that would have been a field conversion which was never built from scratch.



Could easily have been old eyes reading something wrong too.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:01:52 PM   
Montbrun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Yes, I see what you mean ComP. Still, although very minor, it is still less than satisfactory in a game that aims to model down to individual trucks, rifles and men. The squad and the halftrack attack, and are attacked as one. They are damaged as one, treated as some kind of centaur, the body of a halftrack, and the head of nine panzer grenadiers.

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  


The squad also has an armor rating.

Brad

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:08:45 PM   
squatter

 

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So they do - front and side armour of 1. Normal infantry are 0. Yet a normal German halftrack is 14 and 10.

It would appear the panzer grenadiers have flak jackets.

For the purist, this needs fixing.


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:08:53 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  


If you look closely at the TOEs, it actually fits exactly with reality. All Panzer and PzG Divisions in all TOEs have most of their infantry as "Motorized Rifle Squad" for the entire war. The mix changes within the Divisions, as there are also some "Panzer Grenadier Squads"; these are halftrack mounted.

There are NO units, not even the SS Panzer Divisions, that have only PzG Rifle squads, and not Motorized Rifle Squads.

It is true that all "Panzer Grenadier" units in the game are halftrack mounted, but most of what the Germans IRL called "Panzergrenadiers" are actually in-game called "Motorized Rifle Squads", because most "Panzer Grenadiers" were in reality Truck-Mounted.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:22:46 PM   
squatter

 

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Okay, but the central point is that the half-tracks in which these grenadiers are mounted are not modelled, unlike every other vehicle that took part in the war. Other than the fact the troops have extra MGs, men, and flak jackets(!).

The infantry squad and the vehicle they travel in should be modelled seperately, should they not?

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:29:37 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Hmm, this is interesting. Now I know why there are so few 251/1 around. I always wondered, but never dared to ask...

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 4:52:51 PM   
Lrfss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Yes, I see what you mean ComP. Still, although very minor, it is still less than satisfactory in a game that aims to model down to individual trucks, rifles and men. The squad and the halftrack attack, and are attacked as one. They are damaged as one, treated as some kind of centaur, the body of a halftrack, and the head of nine panzer grenadiers.

It also flies in the face of the other assertion here that most panzergrenadier squads in the war were in trucks not halftracks. Under this model, 100% of panzergrenadier squads get a halftrack, and what's more, you dont even need the factories to build them, as you do with every other single vehicle in the game (ie, armament points are used to build these squads, not vehicle factories).

It doesnt sit with the ethos of the rest of the game to model them in this manner.  


+1, agreed

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 5:09:41 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Okay, but the central point is that the half-tracks in which these grenadiers are mounted are not modelled, unlike every other vehicle that took part in the war. Other than the fact the troops have extra MGs, men, and flak jackets(!).

The infantry squad and the vehicle they travel in should be modelled seperately, should they not?


Why? Seems like a reasonable abstraction since it is organic transport.

The game doesn't model every individual thing. It models divisions in detail. Below that, everything is an 'entity' that can be put into a division, no matter what it actually contains. If we accept your assertion, then the game should model tank crews separately too. That level of detail would simply add nothing to the game.


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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 5:28:08 PM   
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Wait a minute - are you telling me the game does NOT model tank crews separately????

Someone get a rope.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 5:36:34 PM   
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I appreciate this discussion as it was not clear (and still isn't totally clear, at least to me, to be honest) how these come into the game. In my modded version of the GC, I added production capacity for the halftracks (yes, they are manufactured/part of the German production system) in order to allow the conversion of more of the motorized infantry squads to PG squads over time (never 100%, even in GD or SS pz/PG divs). The number of halftracks vs PG squads in the standard TOEs is not a linear relationship so I just made a best guess at how many extra halftracks were needed to convert extra squads/companies to halftracks. Have just hit the (modded) '42 TOE conversion points for motorized and Pz divisions and I have a huge surplus waiting for the TOE change to kick in. I have a feeling I have vastly overestimated the number required, possibly because of the way the game seems to be modelling them. We'll see; suspect if I got it wrong there is no game mechanism to make some sort of use of the extra halftracks I will have wasted production capacity on.

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RE: Lots of tanks, no men - 3/31/2011 5:43:59 PM   
squatter

 

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[/quote]

Why? Seems like a reasonable abstraction since it is organic transport.

The game doesn't model every individual thing. It models divisions in detail. Below that, everything is an 'entity' that can be put into a division, no matter what it actually contains. If we accept your assertion, then the game should model tank crews separately too. That level of detail would simply add nothing to the game.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, I dont follow your logic, and I'm not asserting seperate tank crews.

Now, as the manual says: "Combat is conducted through an automated tactical system that models the action down to the individual aircraft, Armoured Fighting Vehicle, and infantry squad."

Can we at least agree that the game sets out to model every AFV, then? We're not going to get far without that.

Good, so we agree that the game aims to model every AFV that fought in the war in the east, yes? That's why all those tanks have got individual names and data.

But hang on, there's one exception to this: the german panzer grenadier halftracks. All the other halftracks are in there - the mortar ones, the flak ones, all of them - except the ones that carried the panzergrenadiers into battle.

Instead, the crew and weapons of these halftracks are thrown in with the rest of the panzer grenadier squad, all fighting as one.

Now, if it was the case that the German panzergrenadiers sat in their halftracks during battle, firing over the sides at the enemy, then perhaps this approach would have some merit. But sadly, as we all know, the germans would dismount from thir halftracks, and infantry and vehicle would fight seperately.

A game that models literally every single other AFV individually, yet doesnt model these halftracks. I'm saying that's odd.

In WitE as it stands, the troops sit in the halftracks during the fight.

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