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Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:31:48 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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1. How does one build forts in hexes where no base exists?

2. How does one make a hex an "objective" when it isn't a base?

Thanks!
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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:34:04 AM   
Misconduct


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If there is no base in the hex then you cannot build forts

You can't make a Hex an Objective is there isn't a base.

3. To have a base you must be able to have an AF or PORT, if both are 0 then it would be a small dot in the middle of the hex to show it is a base however nothing has been built (check the islands in the solomons area and you will see what I mean about a few bases that arn't built.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 2:43:06 AM   
Alfred

 

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Engineers who are not at rest will automatically build up the fortification levels in a non base hex. Combined with the terrain bonus, a formidable defensive position can therefore be established.

Alfred

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 3:01:56 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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I'm sorry, but I have to contradictory answers here. 


You can't make a Hex an Objective is there isn't a base.

Then there was this answer:

Engineers who are not at rest will automatically build up the fortification levels in a non base hex.
 
Or am I missing something in these answers.


Thanks guys!

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 4:28:17 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm sorry, but I have to contradictory answers here. 


You can't make a Hex an Objective is there isn't a base.

Then there was this answer:

Engineers who are not at rest will automatically build up the fortification levels in a non base hex.
 
Or am I missing something in these answers.


Thanks guys!


Alfred is right. Look at an LCU which has been in a non-base hex for a few days/weeks. You'll see a "Forts" notation with a number on its detail screen. When you move it the forts (think of them as fighting holes, chopped-down trees, slit trenches, etc.) are left behind.

Look at the top left corner of this shot. This Chinese unit out in the countryside has established a level of Forts equal to 4. How that is factored into the combat routines I have no idea (maybe it's in the manual somewhere), but I always figure more forts are good, fewer are less good.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/24/2011 4:34:33 AM >


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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 4:28:30 AM   
Alfred

 

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1. You can only set a base (includes dot bases) as an objective. Combat in a non base hex is not affected by the level of preparation achieved by the LCU whereas it is when combat occurs at a base hex.

2. LCUs out in the field most definitely can and do build up their fortification levels. Click on the land icon and it will tell you whether forts are being built and what the current fortification level is. You do need to not have the units in "rest" mode, the same as if they were located at a base.

Alfred

edit: missed it by that much, Chief.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 3/24/2011 4:30:36 AM >

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 4:30:35 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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Thank you for the clarification, Alfred.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 10:06:49 AM   
undercovergeek

 

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well i never knew that!! always learning

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:00:47 PM   
m10bob


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What sort of "objective" do you refer to?..You may designate any coastline hex as an amphibious objective, no problem,except the speed at which the ships/barges will unload...(For this reason, I don't know why airborne units cannot do the same, land in any hex)..

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:08:48 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

What sort of "objective" do you refer to?..You may designate any coastline hex as an amphibious objective, no problem,except the speed at which the ships/barges will unload...(For this reason, I don't know why airborne units cannot do the same, land in any hex)..



There used to be a workaround for that, you could set 'transport supply' orders for any hex, and then change it to 'transport troops' later. Not sure if it works anymore though.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:13:20 PM   
undercovergeek

 

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ahh i was under the impression the OP meant the objective you set in the bottom right hand corner - the preparation one, though it wouldnt be needed for an uncontested hex?

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:41:07 PM   
HansBolter


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I am not here to criticize anyone's answers, but it appears to me that apples have been compared to oranges.

I assume the OP was asking about the fortification level of the hex itself and was unaware that individual units also have their own fortification levels.

While units that remain in a hex for multiple turns can increase thier individual fort levels, hexes without bases cannot have hex level forts constructed in them, at least to the best of my knowledge.

Is allowing individual units within a hex to build up their own fort levels equatable to having a hex level fort ranking? I don't believe it is, although I certainly don't know for sure.

It seems to me that units with individual fort levels located in a base hex with a hex level fort would incur a cummulative effect. Or is the individual unit fort level superseded by the hex level fort when a hex level fort exists? Inquiring minds would like to know.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 12:53:55 PM   
HansBolter


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It is also not correct that hex level forts cannot be built in non base hexes. They cannot be built in non- base capable hexes, ie...open country with no dot.

Hex level forts can be built in dot hexes that have not yet been built into base hexes.

Screen shot is a case in point:






Attachment (1)

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 2:13:52 PM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1. You can only set a base (includes dot bases) as an objective. Combat in a non base hex is not affected by the level of preparation achieved by the LCU whereas it is when combat occurs at a base hex.

2. LCUs out in the field most definitely can and do build up their fortification levels. Click on the land icon and it will tell you whether forts are being built and what the current fortification level is. You do need to not have the units in "rest" mode, the same as if they were located at a base.

Alfred

edit: missed it by that much, Chief.


Any - or do they need engineers present?

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 2:26:07 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1. You can only set a base (includes dot bases) as an objective. Combat in a non base hex is not affected by the level of preparation achieved by the LCU whereas it is when combat occurs at a base hex.

2. LCUs out in the field most definitely can and do build up their fortification levels. Click on the land icon and it will tell you whether forts are being built and what the current fortification level is. You do need to not have the units in "rest" mode, the same as if they were located at a base.

Alfred

edit: missed it by that much, Chief.


Any - or do they need engineers present?


I always assumed the highest fortification in open terrain was useless in defending a non-base hex, Jungle/woodlands however would be a pauseable defensive place, or across any river-hex as it will cause a shock attack. However I never tested this in any non-base hex due to the supplies demand, just how high can the fortification go? I would assume not above 6?


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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/24/2011 7:03:37 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1. You can only set a base (includes dot bases) as an objective. Combat in a non base hex is not affected by the level of preparation achieved by the LCU whereas it is when combat occurs at a base hex.

2. LCUs out in the field most definitely can and do build up their fortification levels. Click on the land icon and it will tell you whether forts are being built and what the current fortification level is. You do need to not have the units in "rest" mode, the same as if they were located at a base.Alfred

edit: missed it by that much, Chief.


Alfred -

I appreciate the clarification -

Thanks.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 3/24/2011 7:05:53 PM >


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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 3:24:55 AM   
Alfred

 

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Attention class and welcome to Fortification 101.

What is fortification

The game employs the term fort levels in two similar but different situations. These are:

(a) base hex (includes dot base)
(b) non base hex

In a base hex, fortification levels represent how strong and extensive the permanent defensive structure is. Think of Fort Eban and the Maginot Line forts in Europe representing something like a fort level 8 or 9, the Dragons Teeth of the incomplete Siegfried Line something much less, perhaps a 3 rising to a 4 or 5 where the Dragons Teeth are matched with pill boxes.

Base fortification levels are permanent in the sense that they exist independently of the presence or otherwise of friendly troops. Your base 6 fortification levels will remain after the garrison has completely moved out. It remains ready to welcome and house any future arriving friendly troops who are able to immediately enjoy the benefits of the permanent defensive structure.

In a non base hex, nothing permanent is built. This would be clearer if the game had used the term "entrenchment" rather than fortification. Out in the field, individual units entrench themselves with foxholes and then berms etc. However this fortification level essentially represents temporary defence structures which will be lost when the unit moves out. Arriving units have to start from scratch their own entrenching.

Construction of forts

Engineers are required to build forts whether in a base or out in the field. Just as you need engineers to build things in the game such as airfields and ports, similarly you need them to build forts (and entrenchments). Just as engineers who are in "rest mode" do not build things in a base, the same applies to entrenching out in the field. Makes sense, right? Oh, and of course you would also need to have adequate supply on hand to feed the hard working engineers.

In a base which has a permanent defensive structure in place, enemy combat engineers can reduce part of the interlocked defensive structure even when the overall assault has failed to carry the entire position. Out in the field there is nothing permanent for the combat engineers to reduce, the assault either smashes through and captures the entire position or it is repulsed and thrown back to the starting lines.

Not all bases can build up their fortification level beyond 6. The base screen will indicate whether you can build beyond level 6. You will not be able to build up your tiny atoll beyond level 6. Furthermore, where you can build beyond level 6, you need to have 25k+ in supplies present. If the supply depot drops below 25K, the base construction figure will appear in red and construction will freeze until the supply again exceeds 25k.

I have seen units out in the field with entrenchment up to 6. I do not believe that units out in the field can entrench beyond level 6 because there is no supply depot present out in the field with 25k+ supply.

Benefit of forts

For the defence, forts provide three major benefits generally and one in monsoon affected bases.

(a) they shield troops from suffering casualties
(b) they improve the adjusted assault value modifier
(c) attackers need their adjusted combat odds to exceed or equal the fortification level +2 to capture the hex
(d) during the monsoon season, the maximum amount of daily supply is partly determined on the base fortification level

Alfred

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 4:02:32 AM   
PaxMondo


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Thaks Alfred.  Great summary.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 5:35:36 AM   
erstad

 

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quote:


Engineers are required to build forts whether in a base or out in the field.


This is the only point I would challenge. Yes, engineers are required to build forts in a base, but field fortifications can be built by units with no engineers. For example, I have an HQ unit which has a fort level of four despite having only support squads.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 5:47:45 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

quote:


Engineers are required to build forts whether in a base or out in the field.


This is the only point I would challenge. Yes, engineers are required to build forts in a base, but field fortifications can be built by units with no engineers. For example, I have an HQ unit which has a fort level of four despite having only support squads.



Ah yes, but I would bet the HQ unit is also in a hex which has some other LCU present which does have engineers.

If you go back to any earlier post in this thread I made reference to pulling up the land icon and it stating whether forts are being built. When you click on the land icon a list of all the units pressent at the hex appears. The fortification level which is there displayed is for all the units.

I never have an HQ unit all by itself stationary out in the field so I can't saying with 100% certainty that it couldn't build forts by itself but I am 99.99% certain that my preceding post is accurate. I did distinguish between permanent/temporary and fortification/entrenchment because they seem to me to be the key differences between base and non base fortifications. One applies to hex infrastructure, the other to unit capabilities. Otherwise the game engine really treats them the same.

Alfred

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 6:31:23 AM   
erstad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

quote:


Engineers are required to build forts whether in a base or out in the field.


This is the only point I would challenge. Yes, engineers are required to build forts in a base, but field fortifications can be built by units with no engineers. For example, I have an HQ unit which has a fort level of four despite having only support squads.



Ah yes, but I would bet the HQ unit is also in a hex which has some other LCU present which does have engineers.

If you go back to any earlier post in this thread I made reference to pulling up the land icon and it stating whether forts are being built. When you click on the land icon a list of all the units pressent at the hex appears. The fortification level which is there displayed is for all the units.

I never have an HQ unit all by itself stationary out in the field so I can't saying with 100% certainty that it couldn't build forts by itself but I am 99.99% certain that my preceding post is accurate. I did distinguish between permanent/temporary and fortification/entrenchment because they seem to me to be the key differences between base and non base fortifications. One applies to hex infrastructure, the other to unit capabilities. Otherwise the game engine really treats them the same.

Alfred


Good point, you are most likely correct. I wasn't thinking about other units in the hex.




< Message edited by erstad -- 3/25/2011 6:33:04 AM >

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 1:03:13 PM   
HansBolter


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Alfred,

Since you appear to be very well versed in your understanding of forts, do you have an answer to my question as to whether, or not, field "entrenchments" and base fortifications have a cummulative effect, or if the former is superseded by the latter?

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 3/25/2011 2:15:35 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Alfred,

Since you appear to be very well versed in your understanding of forts, do you have an answer to my question as to whether, or not, field "entrenchments" and base fortifications have a cummulative effect, or if the former is superseded by the latter?


No, they are like matter and anti-matter.

LCUs in motion carry no fortification level with them. When a LCU moves into a base hex it "assumes" the fortification level of the base (manual page 209). So if the base already has level 6 forts, the newly arrived unit instantly acquires the benefit of sheltering behind those fortifications. Its engineers will not entrench the unit at the base but if the base is capable of building beyond level 6 forts and the player has fort construction on, the engineers of the newly arrived LCU will assist in building up the base fort levels. The moment that LCU moves out of the base it loses all fortification levels but the work which its engineers put in to building up the permanent base fortification levels remains back at the base.

When the LCU comes to a stop in the field it can start to entrench itself commencing at level 0 fortification, but the point is that a non base hex has no permanent structures.

I should again remind readers that the manual and game regularly employs the term "fortification" to cover both base and non base hexes. My use of the term "entrenchment" for field works is not official but I feel better conveys the difference between the permanent and temporary structures of base and non base hexes respectively.

Alfred

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 4/3/2011 7:29:15 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Alfred -

Have just finished a PBEM turn, and am now catching up on the forums. Really appreciate your step by step, detailed explanation of this important concept of the game.

Thank You, Sir -

Mac

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 4/3/2011 3:30:14 PM   
LST Express


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I love these kinda threads, Alfreds fortification 101 is going in my AE folder.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 10/31/2011 9:27:55 PM   
zuluhour


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Attention class and welcome to Fortification 101.

Gee Whiz, I need a real big sticky here.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 10/31/2011 9:55:23 PM   
sandman455


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Yes, many thanks Alfred for putting that together. It helps a lot!

However, I am a bit concerned. . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Attention class and welcome to Fortification 101.



Is there a tuition for all these classes of yours I'm taking?

Can I get a scholorship or grant to help defray the cost?

If my college education ended up being a big waste of money, does that mean my WitP/AE games are going to end in 1944 under the shadow of many B-29's?

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 10/31/2011 9:57:55 PM   
jeffk3510


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I'm still confused. In a NON Base hex... do you have to have eng or not to build forts?

Nice summary btw Alfred. As always..

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 10/31/2011 11:55:30 PM   
Sredni

 

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I don't think anyone is 100% sure if non engineers can build forts outside of bases or not, though it should be easy to check. In china just move one of the innumerable hq's off to some out of the way hex and see if it builds forts while all alone.

We do know that units without engineers will gain fortifications outside of base hexes when in a stack of other units that include engineers. As a concrete example I had a huge months long siege in burma in a non base hex with artillery units, hq's and armored units all without engineers of their own who all built up to 4 or 5 level forts. Either the engineers that the other units had are shared and helped them build forts, or any unit builds forts without needing engineers while outside of base hexes.

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RE: Questions on Fortifications and picking an objective - 8/19/2015 4:12:57 PM   
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Why not revive this thread? I've never noticed units alone with no engineers fortify in a non base hex. I have noticed that engineers in a hex will fortify for everyone, but perhaps at a different rate for each.

Now here's a question: I have noticed that sometimes when a unit moves into another non base hex they may (or may not) carry their forts with them. Is this a bug? I don't have a save which will substantiate this, but if no one believes me I'll take before and after saves next time I get a game going, hopefully soon.

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