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Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 2:18:33 PM   
Yogi the Great


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Just for your information, Tiller Games has listed Tunisia '43 as a new release this morning.


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 2:55:22 PM   
SuluSea


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Tiller has some interesting titles but the dated art and from what I understand a DRM makes his games in this day and age a no buy for me.

I could live with the graphics if the title was up my alley (I play his guadalcanal)but not the DRM.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 2:56:28 PM   
V22 Osprey


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Tunisia '43 looks like a very interesting title. Too bad he decided to release it after he left HPS with his new DRM.(Same with Modern War.)

EDIT: So tempted to give in....must resist....

EDIT2: SuluSea, I actually think the Mediterranean graphics are more attractive titles than other fronts, with East Front titles having the worst.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 3/11/2011 3:02:53 PM >


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 3:13:59 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2456
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Just for your information, Tiller Games has listed Tunisia '43 as a new release this morning.


I've purchased a couple of the Tiller "Campaign Series" to mine OOB data from. I look at the situations and find the company/battalion scale very interesting. However, I simply can't play them because the graphics are so wretched. Specifically, I'm referring to the "3D-Normal" view where players actually have to plan and plot their moves. While many folks who play the games appear to have similar concerns, there's apparently no plan to upgrade this ancient aspect of the core design. And my criticisms of the graphics are not about eye-candy. Rather, the 3-D view is just ridiculously hard on my eyes. It also leads me to make mistakes that I don't believe that I'd make if Tiller would simply drop the 3-D nonsense and adopt additional, "zoomed-in" 2-D views:






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 3/11/2011 3:14:35 PM >


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 4:25:47 PM   
Knavery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Tiller has some interesting titles but the dated art and from what I understand a DRM makes his games in this day and age a no buy for me.

I could live with the graphics if the title was up my alley (I play his guadalcanal)but not the DRM.


Yeah there have been a lot of folks talking about the DRM of Tiller games at Wargamer. To be honest, I don't understand their decision to use DRM. It's not like the game is Call of Duty Black Ops or anything. These games cater to a very small market of mature and intelligent people who would not cheat a company out of the money they deserve by pirating a game. That's just not going to happen in this sub-culture. And if it does, it'd be very rare.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 4:45:14 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3627
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery


That's just not going to happen in this sub-culture. And if it does, it'd be very rare.


I never really thought of that. We are a sub culture aren't we?

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 5:54:35 PM   
vonRocko

 

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I have played some of his games in the distant past, and I would like to play them again, but just 3 seconds of looking at those horrible graphics makes my head spin! Someone needs to tell them to quit being so cheap and put some profits into making them look better. I don't need animations or anything like that, just more clarity. Their games look 20 years old.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 7:01:40 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2545
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Tiller has some interesting titles but the dated art and from what I understand a DRM makes his games in this day and age a no buy for me.

I could live with the graphics if the title was up my alley (I play his guadalcanal)but not the DRM.


Yeah there have been a lot of folks talking about the DRM of Tiller games at Wargamer. To be honest, I don't understand their decision to use DRM. It's not like the game is Call of Duty Black Ops or anything. These games cater to a very small market of mature and intelligent people who would not cheat a company out of the money they deserve by pirating a game. That's just not going to happen in this sub-culture. And if it does, it'd be very rare.

Wargaming companies that go for DRM base it on high amount of downloads from torrent sites. What they don't understand is that most of these downloads are from countries outside of their chosen market and that adding DRM to prevent them is pretty counter-productive.
Basically, situation looks like this - value of work, including developer's work is different in different countries. Western developers tend to price themselves out of many markets, so people there find different sources of games. No amount of DRM is going to make them buy these games, because buying them at the prices that they are offered would be stupid and dangerous to their well-being.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 7:02:32 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I have played some of his games in the distant past, and I would like to play them again, but just 3 seconds of looking at those horrible graphics makes my head spin! Someone needs to tell them to quit being so cheap and put some profits into making them look better. I don't need animations or anything like that, just more clarity. Their games look 20 years old.


Believe it or not, a lot of people love these games, so much so, that they've been willing to mod the art for the 2-D maps, counters and so on:

http://www.hist-sdc.com/MapMod/index.htm

http://volcanomods.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

However, that's just for the 2-D maps. When you zoom-in to plot an attack or move, you still have to use the butt-ugly and difficult to interpret 3-D view. Last year, HPS published Midway for Tiller. The graphics didn't even appear to have been done by a professional artist. They were that bad. I still supported the game, however, because it played so well. Once more, my gripe isn't about eye-candy. It's about the abominable, nearly unusable GUI that's foisted off on folks who buy games that use Tiller's 3-D view.




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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/11/2011 8:16:38 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Believe it or not, a lot of people love these games,



I believe that. I like the gameplay also. It's just my aging eyes need a better look. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/14/2011 8:23:52 PM   
Perturabo


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I kinda liked graphics in his Battleground Ardennes.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/14/2011 9:11:56 PM   
eastwindrain

 

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As a 62 year old with very good eyesight thanks to my optician I really enjoy the 2D and 3D veiws, so guys no more moaning please don't be so bloody vain.
As the saying goes you'll suit glasses but remember you have a choice with contact lenses or laser surgery also available.

IF YOU CANNOT READ THIS YOU MAY REQUIRE A EYE TEST.

I also enjoy Gary Grisby's WitP/AE which has very small counters, again absolutly no problem whatsoever.

So again stop this needless attack on Mr John Tiller and HPPSIMS.

Also I'm interested to know what game similiar to these has better 3D graphics.

With 60 to 70 games released and more in the pipeline someone seem's to have correct the formula.

< Message edited by Lowlander -- 3/14/2011 9:18:58 PM >


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 2:43:31 AM   
Waffenamt

 

Posts: 117
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From: Canada
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No eye test required here. I don't see any "needless attacks" but I do see many valid opinions . Each camapign series seems more like 1 game with a load of scenario packs marketed as separate games. I bought many Panzer Campaign scenrios back in the 90s and early 2ks but found them all bit too much like the one before after a while. The template used became all too apparent, and th clickfest got tiresome with some of the larger battles. The graphics were just OK then, but I find them inexcusable now, especially when I gotten hooked on other games available here with similar scales, but much better graphics and a lot more effort going into each release. I won't mention which particular series I'm referring to, but it's on this site and there's just no going back for me!

Regards

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 10:02:26 AM   
eastwindrain

 

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Again which game are you hooked on which is similar and IYO has much better graphics.

Anyhow I'm not buying products here unless the games available contain John Tiller or Gary Grisbys DNA.



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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 10:21:21 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I just realized I've been so deep into the Pacific War I'm not even sure what happened in the real Tunisia in 43. Would anyone happen to have a link? The real deal, not the game.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 11:34:54 AM   
eastwindrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I just realized I've been so deep into the Pacific War I'm not even sure what happened in the real Tunisia in 43. Would anyone happen to have a link? The real deal, not the game.


Well your search engine will help you achive your aims, I've been to Tunisia a number of times mainly around the ruins of Carthage but the local markets and shops are something else !!!.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 12:03:15 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
I just realized I've been so deep into the Pacific War I'm not even sure what happened in the real Tunisia in 43. Would anyone happen to have a link? The real deal, not the game.


Summary :

1) Monty was incredibly slow at chasing the retreating Axis after Alamein
2) Rommel gave the green US troops a bloody nose at Kasserine
3) Hitler poured in lots of troops - too little and too late
4) US from the West, UK/Anzacs from the East closed in and made them all PoW's

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 12:43:50 PM   
hgilmer3


Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Just for your information, Tiller Games has listed Tunisia '43 as a new release this morning.


I've purchased a couple of the Tiller "Campaign Series" to mine OOB data from. I look at the situations and find the company/battalion scale very interesting. However, I simply can't play them because the graphics are so wretched. Specifically, I'm referring to the "3D-Normal" view where players actually have to plan and plot their moves. While many folks who play the games appear to have similar concerns, there's apparently no plan to upgrade this ancient aspect of the core design. And my criticisms of the graphics are not about eye-candy. Rather, the 3-D view is just ridiculously hard on my eyes. It also leads me to make mistakes that I don't believe that I'd make if Tiller would simply drop the 3-D nonsense and adopt additional, "zoomed-in" 2-D views:







Those screen shots are exactly why I have never bought one of his titles. I'm sure they are good games and I know war games typically have lesser graphics than other mainstream titles. I live with those limitations, but these graphics are on par with early to mid 90s. You can do "wargame" graphics and yet still have them look better than that. WiTE is a perfect example of not flashy graphics, but still a 1000 times better than these titles.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 3:14:18 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10364
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From: England
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Not sure what the fuss is about with regards to the graphics...I really like his 2D Squad battles graphics but hate the 3D....still in this sort of game the graphics are of no consequence...from the style of play to the scale it is nothing to do with graphics at all....it's about gameplay....FPS=graphics, Race games= graphics, Flight sims=graphics (though I'm loving FreeFalcon)....turn based operational wargames =great graphics not needed....

I play Dwarf Fortress with a graphic mod...still very basic but the gameplay is immense....I could easly play a spreadsheet style wargame as long as it drags you in and feeds your imagination with words...plus alot of options and things to do I'd be very happy....

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 4:29:22 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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I don't mind the 1990's graphics all that much(although I agree that it could use some improvement), it's the lack of resolution options that trouble me. I loaded up a recent demo of a Tiller game and the thing plays on about a fifth of my screen when in 2D normal mode.

The native resolution of my monitor is 1900x1200, so I don't want to reduce the resolution and suffer the loss of clarity. I understand that this game engine is many years old, of course. It's just a pity that he hasn't the time or inclination to update the engine to use multiple resolutions. It could be that the game engine can't do it, however, whether or not he would like to make that change.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/15/2011 11:42:06 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

I don't mind the 1990's graphics all that much(although I agree that it could use some improvement), it's the lack of resolution options that trouble me. I loaded up a recent demo of a Tiller game and the thing plays on about a fifth of my screen when in 2D normal mode.

The native resolution of my monitor is 1900x1200, so I don't want to reduce the resolution and suffer the loss of clarity. I understand that this game engine is many years old, of course. It's just a pity that he hasn't the time or inclination to update the engine to use multiple resolutions. It could be that the game engine can't do it, however, whether or not he would like to make that change.



May I ask what game you are talking about? I've never heard of ANY Tiller game that doesn't either run in a window(and thus automatically fit to size of your desktop) or run a variable resolution engine(JTCS). Even the games from his talonsoft days support a variable resolution engine.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 6:03:45 AM   
mgarnett

 

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I think he means the map only takes up a small portion of the screen. The game runs in a maximised window but because there are only two levels of 2D zoom, you can only make the 2D map so big. On modern large monitors, this means that the map is a small portion of the windows real estate that you have available.

Cheers

Mark

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 9:38:23 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
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If you want to learn about the struggle in North Africa starting with Operation Torch then I cannot recommend highly enough a book called An Army at Dawn by Rick Atkinson. It is a fantastic read. Really shows the struggle and the strain on the me as they fought under very hard conditions.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 3:46:52 PM   
eastwindrain

 

Posts: 220
Joined: 11/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nick Schieben

No eye test required here. I don't see any "needless attacks" but I do see many valid opinions . Each camapign series seems more like 1 game with a load of scenario packs marketed as separate games. I bought many Panzer Campaign scenrios back in the 90s and early 2ks but found them all bit too much like the one before after a while. The template used became all too apparent, and th clickfest got tiresome with some of the larger battles. The graphics were just OK then, but I find them inexcusable now, especially when I gotten hooked on other games available here with similar scales, but much better graphics and a lot more effort going into each release. I won't mention which particular series I'm referring to, but it's on this site and there's just no going back for me!

Regards


Ok we cannot stand the suspence any longer please enlighten us, reveal the title with the super enhanced 3D graphics surely keeping the secret to yourself is rather selfish.

Edit crickey I hope it's not the JTCS.

< Message edited by Lowlander -- 3/16/2011 3:50:46 PM >


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 4:09:56 PM   
eastwindrain

 

Posts: 220
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Those screen shots are exactly why I have never bought one of his titles. I'm sure they are good games and I know war games typically have lesser graphics than other mainstream titles. I live with those limitations, but these graphics are on par with early to mid 90s. You can do "wargame" graphics and yet still have them look better than that. WiTE is a perfect example of not flashy graphics, but still a 1000 times better than these titles.
[/quote]

OK WitE which I also have is a strategy game at 10mls per hex but the map is very very bland, however a mod is available which fills in a load of missing locations and IMO helps with the history and enjoyment when these are fought over.

The PZC games have a accurate 1 ml hex grid based on Russian WW2 maps ( german forces were more than happy with them ) of the campaign area so you have a massive amount of detail.

But we all have different tastes thank God, let's face up to reality I could start slagging off some games which I don't like but instead I don't get to see the Queen blink because my wallet stays in my pocket.


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 4:14:16 PM   
eastwindrain

 

Posts: 220
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

I don't mind the 1990's graphics all that much(although I agree that it could use some improvement), it's the lack of resolution options that trouble me. I loaded up a recent demo of a Tiller game and the thing plays on about a fifth of my screen when in 2D normal mode.

The native resolution of my monitor is 1900x1200, so I don't want to reduce the resolution and suffer the loss of clarity. I understand that this game engine is many years old, of course. It's just a pity that he hasn't the time or inclination to update the engine to use multiple resolutions. It could be that the game engine can't do it, however, whether or not he would like to make that change.



I sorry to hear this but remember reading that this is not a problem as the game will run on larger screens why don't you take the time to contact HPSSIMS support.

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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 4:24:26 PM   
eastwindrain

 

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You know I visit various sites and over at the Blitz YOU NEVER NEVER GET GUYS SLAGGING OFF OTHER GAMES, but this seems to happen on a regular basis on these boards, like it's not by Matrix let's all gang up like a pile of bully's and write the title off before it effects Matrix's game sales.

I don't have a axe to grind but somehow I feel better for that.


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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 4:42:10 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlander

You know I visit various sites and over at the Blitz YOU NEVER NEVER GET GUYS SLAGGING OFF OTHER GAMES, but this seems to happen on a regular basis on these boards, like it's not by Matrix let's all gang up like a pile of bully's and write the title off before it effects Matrix's game sales.

I don't have a axe to grind but somehow I feel better for that.


So what are you saying? Are you suggesting we shouldn't talk about wargames, and our likes or dislikes? This isn't a "gang up" on tiller games, in fact many posters like them. We're just giving our opinions, why would that be a problem?

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Post #: 28
RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 4:50:33 PM   
Obsolete


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quote:

It also leads me to make mistakes that I don't believe that I'd make if Tiller would simply drop the 3-D nonsense and adopt additional, "zoomed-in" 2-D views:


Well, I thought the 3D hexes were one of the most interesting features.



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RE: Tunisia '43 - 3/16/2011 6:19:08 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett

I think he means the map only takes up a small portion of the screen. The game runs in a maximised window but because there are only two levels of 2D zoom, you can only make the 2D map so big. On modern large monitors, this means that the map is a small portion of the windows real estate that you have available.

Cheers

Mark


Thank you, Mark. Yes, this is exactly what I meant. The demo is Panzer Campaigns: Mius '43.

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