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Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 11:39:01 AM   
rolypoly


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This noob needs some help regarding the constant lack of fuel in my armored spearheads.

As an axis player, in every operation, I manage to plunge my panzer armies deep behind enemy´s rear and force either withdraw or create a pocket. I manage to keep my panzers out from major combats, but fuel is what is always a constant problem.

In addition to that, panzer korps HQ-units aren´t generally wise to leave to the gap between foot and motorized units(5 hex rule), so I usually have to keep them with their subordinative units. Is this a right thing to do? I mean, the distance to the starting point, even on turn 1 usually grows very large - like in, for example, Minsk pocket.

Should then I apply the 15hex rule to move forward the army HQ of the relative panzer army?

And should I move the HQ before or after ending the turn? How about the refit status? Does this apply to the fuel as well? Also, moving HQ,s is very costly (according the manual) so should I avoid this as much as possible?

I mean, I have tried several different ways but what is the best way to make sure, that after the previous encirclement is destroyed, your armor is already beefed up for another pincer move?

Air supply seems to have very little effect, or then Im doing it wrong - should I supply the stacks with hqs and or units directly?


Thanks for the help!

< Message edited by rolypoly -- 2/17/2011 11:40:49 AM >
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 2:07:15 PM   
NinetyNine

 

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Page 271 of the pdf manual discusses HQ Supply build-ups. I've only been experimenting the past two days with it, so not 100% sure of the practical problems with overusing it, but it does replenish my armor units(at the cost of a turn, essentially).

(in reply to rolypoly)
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 2:37:28 PM   
heliodorus04


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All good questions.

Here are important supply considerations:

Regarding Headquarters.
HQs use the trucks in the Motor Pool to move their supply dumps. Thus, HQs with a lot of dumps can become problematic detractors from supply elsewhere. Try not to move HQs far if they have a lot of dumps. But generally as the German, your Panzer corps' dump number is usually decently small.

Aerial resupply works well to a panzer corps HQ rather than flying missions to each separate division. As long as the combat units are within 5 hexes/20 MP, you can consider going straight to the HQ with air supply. I sometimes do it directly to divisions if I need that specific unit to have higher MP.

TIP: When flying air supply to an HQ, if that HQ is stacked with other units, the dropped supply/fuel will be shared, and often the unit will take more of the dropped supply than the HQ. To avoid this, when moving your HQs, move the HQ to a hex 1-hex away from its final destination so it's stacked alone. THEN fly air supply. Then move the HQ onto the unit that will protect it. Ensures the HQ gets all its supply itself, and minimizes truck usage only having to move those dumps 1 hex.

HQs draw extra supply (i.e., more than they otherwise would) if ANY of the following conditions apply:
a) The HQ has more than 50% of its vehicle Need
b) The motor pool has a vehicle surplus
c) The HQ is within 10 hexes of a railhead

Tip: If your HQ has fewer than 50% of its vehicle need, try to keep it within 10 hexes of (next turn's) railhead.
Try very hard not to strain your motor pool. This is best achieved by careful movement of units, especially HQs. Use rail and naval whenever possible. Every truck counts! Move air bases efficiently. Move higher level HQs the minimum distance to stay within 15 (or whatever) hexes of the farthest subordinate.

Tip: Consider carefully whether you need to advance a unit greater than 15 hexes from a railhead (10 hexes for the HQ to railhead, 5 hexes from the unit to HQ). Plan rail repair accordingly. Keeping my infantry HQs 10 hexes from railhead and my infantry 5 hexes from the HQ has resulted in me having an average of 14 for my infantry movement each turn. This REALLY helps supply, but is admittedly not always possible for panzer corps and units.

Supply delivery modifiers for ALL units (including airbases, HQs, and units):

Supply delivery to any unit is modified as follows:
Distance to railhead from unit is less than or equal to 25 MP, unit receives full supply (this is not to say 100% of need, because fatigue and experience play a part that is not defined).

When distance to railhead is greater than 25, supply is modified (reduced) by a percentage equal to the following:
25/actual distance in MPs.
For example, if you were 50 MPs away from the railhead, your supply delivery in tons would be multiplied by 0.5, and thus, half your supply amount would not be delivered.

Another, CUMULATIVE, modifier exists for the number of hexes to railhead, as follows:
When hexes to railhead is less than or equal to 10, full supply arrives.
When hexes to railhead is greater than 10, supply is modified (reduced) by a percentage equal to the following:
10/actual hexes to railhead

Again, if you're 20 hexes from railhead, your supply received will be reduced by half.

Since these two modifiers are cumulative, if your 20 hexes and 50 MP away from railhead, you will receive 0 supply.

TIP: It is usually easy to stay within 25 MP of the railhead even if you're more than 10 hexes away. Try not to be outside of both 25 MP and 10 hexes.

Unit Supply Draw Modifier (all units):
A unit will draw its supply Need (fatigue/experience modifiers notwithstanding - we don't have any math to model those) as follows:
A unit will draw it's Need, modified as follows:
100-(the distance in MPs to its supply source*-5)
*Note that for units within 5 hexes, the source will be the HQ most likely.

So if you have an armored unit with 50 MP, and you spend all 50 MP, supply received will equal 45 percent of Need.
TIP: Move efficiently. This is especially true for HQs themselves, as they supply their units.

I can't find it in the manual, but an HQ's distance to railhead, when under 10, will see an INCREASE in the amount of supplies delivered.

The single best ways that I have found to increase the natural flow of supplies to panzer units is this:
Get their HQ to within 10 of the railhead
Don't move the panzer unit for 1 turn.

Knowing all of these, and figuring out when and where to violate the 10-hex distance, will go a long way to improving your panzer MPs available.

_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

(in reply to rolypoly)
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 3:06:57 PM   
Mudmag99

 

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Do Aerial Supply drops automatically drop fuel as well as supply?

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 3:17:25 PM   
Josh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maggot99

Do Aerial Supply drops automatically drop fuel as well as supply?


Nope, only supply. No bullets either. You can drop fuel if you press "shift" when airsupplying, then rightclick on the unit (in the pop up menu you can choose what planes you want to use for fuel supply, the word "fuel" is in the lower right hand corner of that popup). You seriously want to do that because some of those units drive on gasoline fumes LOL.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 3:26:38 PM   
Mynok


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Supply is turned into bullets.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 3:27:23 PM   
timmyab

 

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Hi
One of the things that I've noticed in our current game is that you are not gaurding your flanks properly.This is allowing me to isolate some of your armoured spearheads which means they wont recieve supply in the axis logistics phase.Try to keep your flanks covered with zones of control at least.This makes it very much more difficult for the Soviet player to penetrate behind your lines.Actually, why am I telling you this?
By the way, I've just sent you a turn.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 3:46:53 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Since these two modifiers are cumulative, if your 20 hexes and 50 MP away from railhead, you will receive 0 supply.


I took cumulative to mean that supply gets cut in half for the MP factor and then cut in half again for the hex factor. So you end up receiving 1/4. Which then might get multiplied down by other factors. I'm pretty sure I've gotten a trickle of supply even when beyond 20/50.


< Message edited by EntropyAvatar -- 2/17/2011 3:47:13 PM >

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 4:00:15 PM   
rolypoly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Hi
One of the things that I've noticed in our current game is that you are not gaurding your flanks properly.This is allowing me to isolate some of your armoured spearheads which means they wont recieve supply in the axis logistics phase.Try to keep your flanks covered with zones of control at least.This makes it very much more difficult for the Soviet player to penetrate behind your lines.Actually, why am I telling you this?
By the way, I've just sent you a turn.



I noticed this particular fact on the last turn you sent to me: this mistake of mine was due to the following errors: i thought your isolated units could not move enough to actually do anything useful also -I noticed that I had made a big mistake when not taking supply ZOC protection more seriously. this error was enforced by my assumption that all of your able soldiers are racing behind dneper...

I guess HQ buildup-experiment might be the next step...

Ok then, now im going to open that turn and check the news from the front

Thanks for the help guys!


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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 4:07:08 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EntropyAvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Since these two modifiers are cumulative, if your 20 hexes and 50 MP away from railhead, you will receive 0 supply.


I took cumulative to mean that supply gets cut in half for the MP factor and then cut in half again for the hex factor. So you end up receiving 1/4. Which then might get multiplied down by other factors. I'm pretty sure I've gotten a trickle of supply even when beyond 20/50.


You could be right, actually. I was assuming "cumulative" in the additional sense. It is more likely that it is sequential as you describe.


_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 10:24:16 PM   
marcpennington

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maggot99

Do Aerial Supply drops automatically drop fuel as well as supply?


Nope, only supply. No bullets either. You can drop fuel if you press "shift" when airsupplying, then rightclick on the unit (in the pop up menu you can choose what planes you want to use for fuel supply, the word "fuel" is in the lower right hand corner of that popup). You seriously want to do that because some of those units drive on gasoline fumes LOL.


Actually, based on experimentation, it would appear automatic air drops (through right clicking) drop a combination of both supply and fuel, although they always say supply in the pop up message box. Through shift right clicking one can select to drop either fuel or supply, but not both in the same mission, which seems an over-sight. Or perhaps I am confused.

Although it might be a bit "gamey", one tactic I've found to dramatically increase air supply to the forward units is in the Air Doctrine menu to drop the percent needed to fly before doing the missions to around 20%, which allows for a quite a few additional air drops, especially if one is doing them at the end of your phase. Afterwards, I raise the percent back up so as not to wear out my air force on other missions, but on the resupply ones their losses seem minimal at least in the early stages of the Blitzkrieg. Of course, there may be some long term consequences for the air force here that I am not aware of...

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/17/2011 11:47:16 PM   
randallw

 

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Before earlier patches all that flying might have created a huge fatigue level for those air units; not sure how much they'll suffer now.  At minimum i'd expect heavy air unit usage to create a bunch of damaged planes after a few turns.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 12:16:11 AM   
Marquo


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I would thinkk that dropping supplies on an HQ will effect the subordinate units the next turn after the logistics phase, whereas dropping supplies directly on units has an immediate effect?

Marquo

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 1:13:29 AM   
2ndACR


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It does damage them, but the worst is if they run into some Russian fighters. You can see 20 bombers and 40 transports go down if they are not escorted.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 1:53:39 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

It does damage them, but the worst is if they run into some Russian fighters. You can see 20 bombers and 40 transports go down if they are not escorted.


Do air drops at night.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 6:09:04 AM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

I would thinkk that dropping supplies on an HQ will effect the subordinate units the next turn after the logistics phase, whereas dropping supplies directly on units has an immediate effect?

Marquo

If by "immediate" you mean an increase in MP, no.
Their fuel stocks will go up immediately, but they can never get more movement than they started the turn with. So the turn before is when they need the fuel, because in the next Logistics phase, they're not gonna draw much supply.

_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 3:49:19 PM   
Champagne


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I thought that the figures for keeping Corps in full supply were this: Railhead to Corps HQ 25 hexes and 100 MP ?



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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 4:23:44 PM   
cookie monster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

I thought that the figures for keeping Corps in full supply were this: Railhead to Corps HQ 25 hexes and 100 MP ?



I know what your saying. If the HQ is in range and has lots of dumps then why bother air supplying units.

I can understand air supply of units outside HQ supply range though.

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 4:54:56 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

I thought that the figures for keeping Corps in full supply were this: Railhead to Corps HQ 25 hexes and 100 MP ?



That's not how I read those. Am I wrong?
I thought the modifiers given above apply to any unit tracing to a Railhead, regardless of whether it's an HQ or a combat unit.

/edit, yeah, still think I'm right.
20.4.3.1, first sentence.
I believe all of those criteria apply to HQs.
Certainly from a game-play standpoint, paying attention to this has increased my movement for infantry especially.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/18/2011 5:00:15 PM >


_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

(in reply to Champagne)
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 5:22:59 PM   
Champagne


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Thanks for your input.

You are probably right!

I had not noticed 20.4.3.1 in this light before. My confusion is due to the fact that the manual states on more than one occasion that 25 hexes and 100 MP amounts to full supply for the Corps HQ tracing to the Railhead. This is not accurate.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 5:25:28 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

Thanks for your input.

You are probably right!

I had not noticed 20.4.3.1 in this light before. My confusion is due to the fact that the manual states on more than one occasion that 25 hexes and 100 MP amounts to full supply for the Corps HQ tracing to the Railhead. This is not accurate.

I think the 25/100 is being mis-used in context elsewhere in the rulebook.
When you are over the 25/100, you are Isolated, and thus, unable to be supplied even if a wide-open path of hexes is between you and railhead.

Again, this is my interpretation of rules.

_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

(in reply to Champagne)
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 8:00:35 PM   
Champagne


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Maybe we can get final clarification from someone from Matrix or a tester.

This is an important issue.

< Message edited by Champagne -- 2/18/2011 8:33:53 PM >


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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/18/2011 10:02:21 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
I had not noticed 20.4.3.1 in this light before. My confusion is due to the fact that the manual states on more than one occasion that 25 hexes and 100 MP amounts to full supply for the Corps HQ tracing to the Railhead. This is not accurate.


Where does it say this? I can assure you that a unit 50 MPs from the railhead will get less supplies than one 10 MPs.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/20/2011 6:03:29 AM   
Champagne


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"20.4.1. TRACING SUPPLY

In order for a headquarters unit to provide supply to its
attached combat and support units, it in turn must be within both 25 hexes and 100 MPs of
a railhead."

" 20.4.3.1. RAILHEAD DISTANCE AND MOVEMENT SUPPLY MODIFIER
When tracing supply to a railhead, the distance from the applicable unit to the railhead will
modify the amount of supply delivered. Anything under 25 MP’s gives full supply "

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/20/2011 6:21:16 PM   
Marquo


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Here are my thoughts on supply (State is not Trace is not Receiving Supply)

1. State of in supply or isolated: Supply = </ 100 MPs to railhead   Isolated > MPs
2. Tracing Supply   for a unit </ 5 hexes/20 MPs to HQ;  HQ to RR  </ 25 hexes/100 MPs or Unit to RR </ 25 hexes/100 MPs
3. Receiving Supply: HQs get more supplies if if has >50% vehicles and is </ 10 MPs to RR; gets bonus if on/adjacent to city/urban hex.
4. Receiving Supply: Units get full supply if < 25 MPs/</10 from RR; if >25/>10 from RR then it receives a percentage less; if the unit moves it receives less a % less supplies and there are also date/location/weather modifiers.

Marquo 

(in reply to Champagne)
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RE: Supplying armored spearheads? - 2/20/2011 7:15:03 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Here are my thoughts on supply (State is not Trace is not Receiving Supply)

1. State of in supply or isolated: Supply = </ 100 MPs to railhead   Isolated > MPs
2. Tracing Supply   for a unit </ 5 hexes/20 MPs to HQ;  HQ to RR  </ 25 hexes/100 MPs or Unit to RR </ 25 hexes/100 MPs
3. Receiving Supply: HQs get more supplies if if has >50% vehicles and is </ 10 MPs to RR; gets bonus if on/adjacent to city/urban hex.
4. Receiving Supply: Units get full supply if < 25 MPs/</10 from RR; if >25/>10 from RR then it receives a percentage less; if the unit moves it receives less a % less supplies and there are also date/location/weather modifiers.

Marquo 

My concern is with the interpretation of #2 with regard to HQs.
I see nothing in the rules that exempts HQs from the effects of tracing supply to a railhead as in #4.


_____________________________

Spring 2018-Playing: Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress; Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Bonhoeffer
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Holland'44, Demyansk Shield: Frozen Fortress

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 26
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