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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc

 
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RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 1:54:18 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

For a Div, probably. Everything would have to go exactly as planned. Good luck there.

It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.

And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.



So 29 hours to load up probably same or more to off load then as well a train ride across all of the soviet union. Ok i would buy a combat reduction for the first turn after disembarking. Seems reasonable.

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Post #: 211
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 2:14:04 AM   
randallw

 

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There already is a MP penalty for loading/unloading a unit onto/off the rails; who knows if it's a reasonable accurate rate or not.  In my game experience loading and unloading a unit leaves it with a pretty small amount of MPs, and since you can't unload directly next to an enemy unit you have to march at least one hex to get to an attack spot.  There's pretty much no chance for a deliberate attack and only a small chance at a hasty one.

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Post #: 212
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 3:39:44 AM   
2ndACR


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True, but very few vehicles are transported combat ready. They have to fuel, draw ammo, food. And sort out the confusion that occurs with a long move etc.

I think there should be a 1 turn after unload pause before they can move, and they will have 1/2 CV that turn. So say turn 1 rail. Turn 2 unload, 1/2 CV during pause, then on 3rd turn they are at normal everything. The 1/2 CV will make people stop and think before railing right up to the front line. Especially with a very fluid front line.

I don't think any unit should be able to load on rail, move, and then unload the same turn. Just takes too long, unless you want to hit them with a big CV and morale penalty.

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Post #: 213
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 1:01:54 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jalla

bwheatley,

Keep in mind that a division would need more than a train to move, more like 50 for a full strength infantry division and at least 300 for an armoured division.

A division should be able to detrain and fight in about a day or two if the railroad is able to deliver all the trains to a general area within a day or so. Detraining a single train should take no more than a few hours at the most.


Cool so it sounds possible then to de-train and ready to fight within a week?


Very possible. The French did it with a vengeance in 1914. Should be quite possible for other major European powers in the 1940s.

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Post #: 214
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 1:22:39 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

I think there should be a 1 turn after unload pause before they can move, and they will have 1/2 CV that turn. So say turn 1 rail. Turn 2 unload, 1/2 CV during pause, then on 3rd turn they are at normal everything. The 1/2 CV will make people stop and think before railing right up to the front line. Especially with a very fluid front line.


This would undermine the Axis need to send Fire- brigades to threatened sectors of the front, particularly in 1943 onwards. I am having a hard enough job holding Flavio as it is. If I lost the current quick response, he will be in Berlin much sooner!!!

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Post #: 215
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 1:22:40 PM   
ComradeP

 

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The French did it in France they did not rail troops across hundreds of miles.

I don't object to the current strategic movement per se, but I do agree that it's somehow odd that you can pick up a unit in Dothexgrad, Russian SFSR, move it to the front and drop the unit there in one turn (or move it from Dothexstadt, Germany, to a place in Byelorussia, the Ukraine or Lithuania) without the unit losing combat effectiveness even temporarily.

The oddest thing about that is that rail movement causes little fatique, so if you rail a unit a substantial distance and drop it somewhere hundreds of miles away, it might have less fatique than a unit moving to the hex from 5 to 10 hexes away.

Of course, rail transport over significant distances still takes two to three weeks and might actually be slower than some priority movements in the actual war.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 2/3/2011 1:23:49 PM >


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Post #: 216
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 2:06:29 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The French did it in France they did not rail troops across hundreds of miles.

I don't object to the current strategic movement per se, but I do agree that it's somehow odd that you can pick up a unit in Dothexgrad, Russian SFSR, move it to the front and drop the unit there in one turn (or move it from Dothexstadt, Germany, to a place in Byelorussia, the Ukraine or Lithuania) without the unit losing combat effectiveness even temporarily.

The oddest thing about that is that rail movement causes little fatique, so if you rail a unit a substantial distance and drop it somewhere hundreds of miles away, it might have less fatique than a unit moving to the hex from 5 to 10 hexes away.

Of course, rail transport over significant distances still takes two to three weeks and might actually be slower than some priority movements in the actual war.


I think early 20th century armies were designed to get maximum advantages from railroads. The French moved troops from near Switzerland to near Paris (surely 200 miles) in less than a week and went to the attack and won.
Anyway, loading and unloading are the relatively time-critical parts of a rail move. The train itself gets you hundreds of miles with relatively little trouble which is the whole point.

I agree the Soviets seem fantastically flexible, but to build in a real administrative and signal system would begin to approach a game only I would enjoy:

It seems to me the idea East Front game would be one that gave you an operational area say Riga to Leningrad -- not too big -- and then let you try out different variables in building armies for each side. For example, you could take a 1923 ideal Wehrmach just as it starts using radios on the road and put it up against a 1923 Red Army which has a pretty flexible command structure, armored trains and so on and let them fight it out at the company/battalion level in a daily orders cycle. Another interesting variation would be a ideal Red Army of 1939 with a good command structure, good signal/radio doctrine and lots of light tanks. It might do well against say a German army with less flexible command and less emphasis on radio/signal training.

For me, the less abstraction the better. In my ideal simulation, every radio message would be tracked and possibly intercepted and/or radio located by the other side. The game would focus on the army cheif-of-staff's situation: checking the radio and recon picture at 5AM. Dealing with visiting Commisars and/or STAVKA at 8AM. Getting the army commander his hang-over cure at 9AM. Sending the ARmy Commander off to help morale at some point on the front and so on. In my ideal game, as the Cheif-of-Staff, you would look at information on your maps that might be wrong and make your assessments (which might push your intelligence expectations in the wrong direction) and worry about how long it takes to get a tank brigade off the trains and fueled and assembled.

Anyway, there's a lot that gets abstracted in WitE, but I think, given the level (ie the whole front with weekly turns) there are other benefits.
Not my cup of tea. I would be more interested in an army or front level game with the player in the position of the Front or Army staff.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 217
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 2:25:07 PM   
raizer

 

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and we are not talking about detraining and then hasty attacking....Im talking about detraining and moving at max 1 hex-which is all i need...a lot of us are playing small pbem scenarios as well.  I can take units from the back of the map and move them right up into the front lines to occupy forts or stick them in rough or in swamps...and they are ready to fight-and I can also rail units to 1 hex of enemy units, move another unit that was not on a train into the EZOC and take the unit detraining to either backstop that unit or if it has enough MPs, which it will sometimes, make the 1 hex move on top of its friendly and join in exerting a ZOC on the enemy unit.  This is early war crap units, I dont care about attacking, with them.  All I want to do is zoom a unit up to the front, detrain it, move it a hex and put its body on a panzer division, all the while taking absolutely no casualties. I could care less about a hasty or a delib.  The unit I moved up, and has found its way into good defensive terrain or a fort, or stacked on a friendly,is now a problem for the enemy unit.  And these "trained" units when they detrain and move, exert a full zoc-maybe we can talk about that as well.  Why should a unit just off the train have as much influence on zocs, and project its own full zoc as a unit that has been in the line?


< Message edited by raizer -- 2/3/2011 2:28:43 PM >

(in reply to MengJiao)
Post #: 218
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 2:34:00 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

and we are not talking about detraining and then hasty attacking....Im talking about detraining and moving at max 1 hex-which is all i need...a lot of us are playing small pbem scenarios as well.  I can take units from the back of the map and move them right up into the front lines to occupy forts or stick them in rough or in swamps...and they are ready to fight-and I can also rail units to 1 hex of enemy units, move another unit that was not on a train into the EZOC and take the unit detraining to either backstop that unit or if it has enough MPs, which it will sometimes, make the 1 hex move on top of its friendly and join in exerting a ZOC on the enemy unit.  This is early war crap units, I dont care about attacking, with them.  All I want to do is zoom a unit up to the front, detrain it, move it a hex and put its body on a panzer division, all the while taking absolutely no casualties. I could care less about a hasty or a delib.  The unit I moved up, and has found its way into good defensive terrain or a fort, or stacked on a friendly,is now a problem for the enemy unit.  And these "trained" units when they detrain and move, exert a full zoc-maybe we can talk about that as well.  Why should a unit just off the train have as much influence on zocs, and project its own full zoc as a unit that has been in the line?



On the scale of a week and 10 miles and with WEGO mechanics, you could argue many ways that there's no problem with an infantry division getting off a train and exerting a zone of control. Maybe he wasn't there at all and the enemy just heard a rumor he was coming. Maybe his presence was simulated with telephone calls "accidently" made to the enemy HQ as in (drunk Russian voice) "Hello, is this the 157th infantry division? I have two trainloads of 122mm howtzer shells for you if you want to come pick it up."

(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 219
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 3:03:22 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

surely 200 miles


That would be just 20 hexes, units can move quite a bit more (up to around 800 miles) and still have a chance to detrain.

Not to mention that many of the hexes don't have large railyards or possibly even a station. Detraining heavy equipment without any kind of facilities is, at best, tricky.

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Post #: 220
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 3:06:30 PM   
raizer

 

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really true to the above post-I can detrain anywhere with exactly the same manner and consequences, whether its a lone track line in a swamp, heavy forest or a major rail hub in industrial urban area 

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Post #: 221
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 3:24:28 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

really true to the above post-I can detrain anywhere with exactly the same manner and consequences, whether its a lone track line in a swamp, heavy forest or a major rail hub in industrial urban area 


I agree it would be nice to have to worry about where to get things off the train. However, I think details like that imply a game with a much smaller scale, say 1 KM terrain resolution, and a daily cycle that runs something like:

5 AM breifing
6 AM first requests for recon
7AM results come in from first battle segment
Chance of decision about trains and so on
10 AM results come in from second battle segment
Chance of train problems etc.
1pm results come in from 3rd battle segment
Chance of more train problems etc.
4pm results come in from 4th battle segment
Chance of more train problems
7pm final daily reports planning for night action, finally get stuff off the train
12pm early night results chance to plan for early morning and get more stuff off the train

Anyway, given a week level game and the whole front and thousands of miles, some abstraction about loading and unloading trains seems inevitable.


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Post #: 222
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/3/2011 3:35:46 PM   
tbone1218

 

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LOL !

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Post #: 223
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/5/2011 12:05:10 AM   
Jalla

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

For a Div, probably. Everything would have to go exactly as planned. Good luck there.

It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.

And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.



Now, the railroads changed a lot between the 40's and the 90's. For starters, in the 40's every small rural station had at least one loading spur and was capable of loading/unloading a lot more than was possible in the 90's, not to speak of larger yards/stations. Keep in mind that almost all transport of goods was done by railroad in both the Soviet union and any other european country as well. That is quite different from today.


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Post #: 224
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/5/2011 12:10:01 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jalla


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

For a Div, probably. Everything would have to go exactly as planned. Good luck there.

It took us 29 hours to fully train up the 2nd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry for Desert Storm in Germany. And we already had 2 troops loaded for a Hoenfelds rotation when we got the movement order.

And they would have to have a whole bunch of loading platforms and rail spurs for it to happen for a armored Div.



Now, the railroads changed a lot between the 40's and the 90's. For starters, in the 40's every small rural station had at least one loading spur and was capable of loading/unloading a lot more than was possible in the 90's, not to speak of larger yards/stations. Keep in mind that almost all transport of goods was done by railroad in both the Soviet union and any other european country as well. That is quite different from today.




And being that the Russians were fighting for their very survival........

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Post #: 225
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/5/2011 1:17:54 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Keep in mind how "heavy" a division might be. A German or Soviet infantry division would be far easier to load and offload (perhaps with more disruption to larger elements such as artillery) than would a mobile division.  Even the horses would require less specialized elements than any division requiring movement of trucks and/or tracked elements...

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Post #: 226
RE: 1:1 odds, counterattack casualties etc - 2/5/2011 4:06:36 PM   
Swenslim

 

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I think one of the problems is that soviet player can break history and simply roll his troops back and back and not trying to defend such sites of great political importance as Kiev, Minsk, Pskov, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, Stalino, Sevastopol. Early loss of this places must result as big increse of axis morale and drop of soviet morale.

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Post #: 227
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