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Bugs a plenty with air selection

 
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Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 11:20:14 AM   
DBeves

 

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OK - do this ...

Open the main campaign game.

Select bomb airbase, make sure the shift key or button is selected so you get manual selection and set percent required to fly to 50 % - target the Russian airbase at siauliai just NE of the AGN start line and make sure the 2LW airbase is selected as the staging base. Notice KG77 appears in this list.

Now do the same but set the percent required to fly to 45 % - ie its LOWER .. KG77 does not appear in the list ... it seems you can set the percent required to fly to 50 or 55 percent and KG77 will appear any other number then it doesnt. Also - you can get around this by selecting their airbase as the staging base. ? Surely a bug... god only knows whats happening if I let the AI run all my missions

Also - when carrying out recon missions if you set these to auto ie dont manually select then it appears the system ignores JU88D-1's in the selection - try this again in AGN area recon at a range only the JU88 can reach and under auto selection it says no aircraft in range - under manual selection suddenly all the JU's appear and they are indeed in range.

Another thing I have noticed is that the manual air selection screen seems to be driven by the air doctrine settings - surely I though this screen should just present you with a list of aircraft in range and allow you to choose ... ok maybe make a pre selection - although the fact it preselects is actually annoying as if I wanted the AI to choose I would just not press the shift key.

The air system in this game is really quite spoiling things as I found all this within five minutes of finally starting a game after waiting for the patch....

< Message edited by DBeves -- 1/29/2011 11:21:35 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 2:38:09 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Funnily enough, I get much better airbase results by using the AI and tweaking the % required to fly option - more than 5,500 kills on turn 1. Not disputing the fact that it's buggy though...

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 7:56:42 PM   
Helpless


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quote:


Select bomb airbase, make sure the shift key or button is selected so you get manual selection and set percent required to fly to 50 % - target the Russian airbase at siauliai just NE of the AGN start line and make sure the 2LW airbase is selected as the staging base. Notice KG77 appears in this list.

Now do the same but set the percent required to fly to 45 % - ie its LOWER .. KG77 does not appear in the list ... it seems you can set the percent required to fly to 50 or 55 percent and KG77 will appear any other number then it doesnt. Also - you can get around this by selecting their airbase as the staging base. ? Surely a bug... god only knows whats happening if I let the AI run all my missions


When you don't select staging airbase, AI just scans the group list and fill it with those which fit the requirements and what is worse it can select whatever staging airbase, which can have effect on the planes in range. If you lower the PCT to fly, some other groups which wouldn't pass the test with higher PCT taking the slots. Try to select staging airbase closer to KG77 and it should appear on the list regardless of % to fly settings (unless it satisfies it).

quote:

Also - when carrying out recon missions if you set these to auto ie dont manually select then it appears the system ignores JU88D-1's in the selection - try this again in AGN area recon at a range only the JU88 can reach and under auto selection it says no aircraft in range - under manual selection suddenly all the JU's appear and they are indeed in range.


This looks odd. Will take a look.

quote:

Another thing I have noticed is that the manual air selection screen seems to be driven by the air doctrine settings - surely I though this screen should just present you with a list of aircraft in range and allow you to choose ... ok maybe make a pre selection - although the fact it preselects is actually annoying as if I wanted the AI to choose I would just not press the shift key.


Except % to fly all the rest of doctrinal settings are ignored when you run manual strikes. The only limit is the amount of entries in the list. Even with this limit you can create strike of huge size, which were never seen on the Eastern front.


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 3
RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:13:52 PM   
DBeves

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:


Select bomb airbase, make sure the shift key or button is selected so you get manual selection and set percent required to fly to 50 % - target the Russian airbase at siauliai just NE of the AGN start line and make sure the 2LW airbase is selected as the staging base. Notice KG77 appears in this list.

Now do the same but set the percent required to fly to 45 % - ie its LOWER .. KG77 does not appear in the list ... it seems you can set the percent required to fly to 50 or 55 percent and KG77 will appear any other number then it doesnt. Also - you can get around this by selecting their airbase as the staging base. ? Surely a bug... god only knows whats happening if I let the AI run all my missions


When you don't select staging airbase, AI just scans the group list and fill it with those which fit the requirements and what is worse it can select whatever staging airbase, which can have effect on the planes in range. If you lower the PCT to fly, some other groups which wouldn't pass the test with higher PCT taking the slots. Try to select staging airbase closer to KG77 and it should appear on the list regardless of % to fly settings (unless it satisfies it).

quote:

Also - when carrying out recon missions if you set these to auto ie dont manually select then it appears the system ignores JU88D-1's in the selection - try this again in AGN area recon at a range only the JU88 can reach and under auto selection it says no aircraft in range - under manual selection suddenly all the JU's appear and they are indeed in range.


This looks odd. Will take a look.

quote:

Another thing I have noticed is that the manual air selection screen seems to be driven by the air doctrine settings - surely I though this screen should just present you with a list of aircraft in range and allow you to choose ... ok maybe make a pre selection - although the fact it preselects is actually annoying as if I wanted the AI to choose I would just not press the shift key.


Except % to fly all the rest of doctrinal settings are ignored when you run manual strikes. The only limit is the amount of entries in the list. Even with this limit you can create strike of huge size, which were never seen on the Eastern front.


quote:

carrying out recon missions if you set these to auto ie dont manually select then it appears the system ignores JU88D-1's in the selection - try this again in AGN area recon at a range only the JU88 can reach and under auto selection it says no aircraft in range - under manual selection suddenly all the JU's appear and they are indeed


Erm Pavel ... you misunderstood - my first point - I am NOT using the AI - this is a manual (shift) selection - so I am selecting the staging base. KG77 doesnt appear in the list if percent to fly is set to anything other than 50 or 55. This - as I said includes a LOWER percentage which makes no sense at all. There is no reason for KG77 to appear in the list at 50 % but not at 45 %. Also - from my answer you will see that I have already said the only thing that stops this happening is if I actually select the KG77 base as the staging base. This is repeatable everytime I open the scenario and can only indicate a more widespread problem ... thing is I have checked the group and they have roughly 50 - 55 % of their planes available.

With regard to my point about air doctrine affecting the list of units available - this again is testable and repeatable and has nothing to do with the number of entries in the list - if I set the doctrine at 300 % for example I get more air groups in the manual select list than I do with a doctrine set at 50 % ... so this has nothing to do with slots available in the list.

Again - I can repeat this time after time so try for yourself the situations I detail above.

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:21:27 PM   
Helpless


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It is possible to run manual stikes witout selecting staging air base.

I've tried it myself and KG 77 show up on the list with % to fly set to 45% once I select the staging air base close to KG 77.






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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:40:00 PM   
DBeves

 

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I know its possible to run manual strikes wihtout selecting the staging base - but as I said - thats not what I am doing here.

OK Pavel - I looked at what you said and my point above now appears to relate specifically selecting the 2LW airbase as the staging base. This whole thing is now even more confusing ... What are the mechanics ? The 2LW airbase is forward of KG77 so how is there any logic in this thing ? By selecting 50 % to fly I can get I II and III from KG 77 to fly the mission using the 2LW field as the staging base - if I set it to 10% I get none of them - this varies also on every base I try - what has the proximity of the staging base got to do with who flies - and why does incresing the % to fly in this case to 50 % let all three staffel fly with 2LW as the staging base whereas decreasing the % to fly to 10 means none of the KG77 units can use this base for staging ?

Sorry - thought the original issue looked bad enough - now its just completely nonsensical ...

< Message edited by DBeves -- 1/29/2011 9:43:08 PM >

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:43:08 PM   
Capt Cliff


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A little guidance as to where to place your bases would be appreciated, it's not intuitive. I'd say place the bases with fighters up near the front line and evenly spaced along the line, if possible. But still a little guidnace from the manual would have been helpful.

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:48:34 PM   
DBeves

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

A little guidance as to where to place your bases would be appreciated, it's not intuitive. I'd say place the bases with fighters up near the front line and evenly spaced along the line, if possible. But still a little guidnace from the manual would have been helpful.


And thats why none of this makes any sense - 2LW base is a fighter base - so its more likely to be used as a staging base than the KG77 one as otherwise it means flying your fighters backwards to use the bombers base if you want to give them an escort. 2LW base is forward from the KG77 base . And it still doesnt explain why the higher % to fly number has an effect on whether they use it ...

Totally lost here - maybe the manual simply doesnt explain the formula used but it seems completely wrong to me

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 9:50:20 PM   
Helpless


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All this randomness come from the fact that system does sequential scans, so the index of particular group can matter. If you place you KG on the top of the air group database it will have more chances to be on the list, if it satisfies all other conditions. So, by lowering % to fly you make "competition" for your group stronger. This is known limitation of the system and we theoretically can include all the groups to the list, but without some other limits to the strike you will be able to launch all of you air force to for the single mission.

This is known effect and we will try minimize, but it is not that simple task.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:05:56 PM   
DBeves

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

All this randomness come from the fact that system does sequential scans, so the index of particular group can matter. If you place you KG on the top of the air group database it will have more chances to be on the list, if it satisfies all other conditions. So, by lowering % to fly you make "competition" for your group stronger. This is known limitation of the system and we theoretically can include all the groups to the list, but without some other limits to the strike you will be able to launch all of you air force to for the single mission.

This is known effect and we will try minimize, but it is not that simple task.


Thanks Pavel for the explanation - completely lost now as it appears to be some wierd function of the code that is explaining this and not a game mechanic.

Personally - I dont see why we cant just have a list of all planes -- it will only be those in range and with enough % left to fly and I really dont see the issue here - it will never be the entire airforce as they wont all be in range - and I cant see why - over the course of a week if one side wanted to target everything they had that was in range at an area, they wouldnt or couldnt ? There may be some realism issue here but the air system is at best a poor add on to the game and its a whole lot more realistic than a group not being able to fly a mission cause they have the wrong index number.

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:31:39 PM   
raizer

 

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I am so confuse'ded




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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:37:29 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

I am so confuse'ded


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2704100

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Pavel Zagzin
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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:38:02 PM   
Rosseau

 

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And I thought my Dad was scary...

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:41:50 PM   
raizer

 

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pavel not that again lol !

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:47:25 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Also - when carrying out recon missions if you set these to auto ie dont manually select then it appears the system ignores JU88D-1's in the selection - try this again in AGN area recon at a range only the JU88 can reach and under auto selection it says no aircraft in range - under manual selection suddenly all the JU's appear and they are indeed in range.



Ok, currently AI recon happens in more or less short-mid range - within 26hexes from your front units. Since you have plenty of close range recons, Ju-88D just not getting to those AI strikes, bacause AI using short legged first. As you say, you still may use those Ju-88D-1 on the manual long range recons.

Since AI has some "knowledge" on the hidden units increasing effective range for the AI recon can have some impact on the gameplay. I'll speak with Joel and Gary on that.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:48:28 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

pavel not that again lol !


Bob, your pic would fit perfectly to that thread :)

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Pavel Zagzin
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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 10:54:36 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Personally - I dont see why we cant just have a list of all planes -- it will only be those in range and with enough % left to fly and I really dont see the issue here - it will never be the entire airforce as they wont all be in range - and I cant see why - over the course of a week if one side wanted to target everything they had that was in range at an area, they wouldnt or couldnt ? There may be some realism issue here but the air system is at best a poor add on to the game and its a whole lot more realistic than a group not being able to fly a mission cause they have the wrong index number


Well, you still can move all the bases to one place and have huge air strikes, so limitation should be in place. I'm not saying it's all very intuitive right now, but there are ways to use your air force in more or less historical way... not always with historical results, but we work on both aspects.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Bugs a plenty with air selection - 1/29/2011 11:06:36 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

I am so confuse'ded


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2704100



Perfect fit Pavel!! That thread has everything except art (and logic )

(in reply to Helpless)
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