Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Comparing ASL and PCO

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Comparing ASL and PCO Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Comparing ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 3:32:19 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
There has been plenty of talk about how PCO compares to CM, let's talk about the "other" comparison. Since I wrote the comparison between CMBB and PCO I guess it's time I compare ASL and PCO as well.

How PCO compares to ASL. Can ASL scenarios be converted to PCO successfully? Let's find out.

Like all of you I have a couple of hundred ASL scenarios I own. You guys may well have many times that many. I quit ASL long ago. Due mainly to a lack of opponents.

First,it depends on what you consider a conversion to be. For me that means the same situation, that uses all the computers abilities for improvement. For others it means an exact port over.

Since exact ports over are the toughest let's look at how that would work.

In the beginning there was a map. You can make an ASL EXACTLY with the Map Maker editor. Within reason. MM makes square maps so you can't just do a single ASL map and have that. You have to square out the area. If you start with a square area in ASL you can make that exactly.

The texturing on the maps can be made to look like ASL maps almost identically. I've made some of my maps with what I call ASL textures. They look and feel very much like ASL.

There are few units in ASL not found in PCO. Whatever is currently missing I would expect to see in the near future as the modders start to go to work on the game series. Vehicle availability currently is no problem unless you are working with something fairly exotic. The various infantry units are much less available. That's simply because in PC4 the focus is to on the infantry. You want Regular, SS, Guards? They are here. You want assault engineers, recon elements, VS, VG, conscripts, Minor Axis? Not yet. Any modder can add them. We just haven't.

Game play. Here is where you may have to make a couple of tweaks. Currently there are only 3 levels of experience for PCO units. Green, Veteran, Elite. You have to work within those parameters. That's a bit limiting but it's workable.

Our combat model is as historically accurate as we can get it. How the gun vs armour duels play out is according to PCO not ASL. That could mean a slightly different outcome to an exact port.

Let's take the PUMA PROWLS for instance. One of my all time favorite ASL scenarios and the first one I ever tried to convert in CMBB. In PCO we have both Puma's and T-70's. I know where the fight took place. I made an actual map, not the ASL map, and it was game on.

The Puma's were tough! TOUGH!!! So, I had to add to the Soviet OOB to balance it out. It can be done and it wasn't all that hard.

When PCO comes out you can try it yourself. The name of that scenario in PCO is Dangerous Information. Watch for it. Those that have played it in either ASL, CMBB or both can decide how it converted over into PCO.

The ones I've converted at this point seem to do reasonably well with just a few tweaks needed to have them be balanced in PCO.

So, if you're an old ASL grog then PCO will make your maps exact, it will make your OOB's exact, it will probably require a few minor adjustments to play balance.

Not a bad deal all the way around.


Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/23/2011 4:26:14 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Post #: 1
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 3:58:20 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
PCO will do things for ASL that it couldn't do for itself. Let's talk about all the things PCO can do that will enhance the ASL experience.

Weather. Was it raining? You need to check that on the scenario sheet? In PCO you will see and hear it rain. The LOS/LOF will be reduced.
The same applies to when it is snowing. Fog as well. Talk about the Fog of War....well, sometimes that just play fog!

BenPark's fall colored trees are worth the price of this update all by themselves. Oh yeah, the update is free if you already own PC:K. Well, if you are buying into the PC series for the first time you'll really like the fall colors!!

Is there snow on the ground? I've yet to see my first ASL map that is covered in snow.

Come up to a river in ASL. Better check the scenario card to see what we have here. In PCO the water is running in a direction and has the depth already set for you.

A vehicle gets hit and catches fire. Done. The fire doesn't last the entire game but goes out? Done.

Leader gets hit and killed? Need a replacement leader? Done. The new guy won't take over instantly but with some delay? Done. He is of variable quality? Done.

Of course things like watching the guns recoil as they fire, tank tracks appearing behind them and the exhaust smoke as they move are all in the visual part of the game. But so is a tank that has a hard time driving up that slope. In ASL all slopes are the same in a particular color. Here the slope is actual. If it's too steep the tank will have a problem negotiating it. Or maybe has to find a different route altogether.

As infantry die they end up on the ground. After a large attack you can see where the enemy took lots of casualties.

Artillery fire is adjusted after each round. Done. Each round of PCO artillery that fires gets closer to the original requested point. There is drift but it is corrected with each firing. AND artillery couldn't just fire endlessly, well it usually couldn't, so PCO has cool down periods where the fire mission is OVER! You need more artillery in that same spot call for it again.

Just a few of the things to compare between ASL and PCO.

Good Hunting.

MR





_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 2
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 4:15:19 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline
Artillery now can run out of rounds too.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 3
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 4:20:20 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
Here is a far away autumn view of the horizon with the clouds threatening rain.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 4
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 4:24:48 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Artillery now can run out of rounds too.


Yes, and so can everybody else in the game. The scenario designer has the ability to give ammunition in increments from 0 to 400%. I can also make units from a single unit up to 20. For any unit in the scenario.

Which means I can assign an artillery unit 1 105mm gun or 20. That gives you tremendous flexibility in how the game is played.

You want Germans in groups and Russians in bunches? You can do that. You want a single PzIV at that crossroads but the 4 coming in all in the same platoon? You can do that. You want a platoon with 20 PzIV's in it? You can do that too.

For campaign purposes there is a normal unit size and a current unit size. You choose both. The normal unit size could be anything from 1 to 20. You decide how big the parent unit will be. Then you can make it either full or reduced in number. If you make it reduced in number the game will try to fill it up later in a campaign with possible reinforcements depending on whether you make it a core unit or not.

Just to the left of the dropdown menu I show is the notation N/M.

That stands for Nominal and Maximum elements in the base unit. As you can see I have both of these set to 20.

Good Hunting.

MR








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/23/2011 11:41:15 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 5
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 5:12:50 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
I realize that it's impossible to delve into this topic without focusing a lot of comment on automation and visuals. However, it strikes me that there's something more critical to game-play, and that's the degree to which games like CM and PzC free players from elaborate sequence of play, like those found in AT/SL/ASL. Certainly, there's a sequence of play in the computer games, but it largely takes place under the hood. Players in the board games are forced to manipulate the system in order to win. The sequence of play is typically either your friend in ASL or your enemy. In a computer game that might deal with the same vignette, that's not the case. Rather, its the terrain and situation, along with the player's skill in managing his resources that determines the outcome.


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 6
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 7:37:17 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
All board games compared to computer games have some basic differences. Mostly visual and interface related. What I was trying to convey here are the more distinct differences specific to ASL and PCO. Hopefully those that have played ASL for decades will find PCO a good match for their hobby interests as well.

For instance, being able to set the ammunition level of a unit.

Good Hunting.

MR







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/23/2011 7:40:46 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 7
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 8:54:36 PM   
diablo1

 

Posts: 994
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
One of the things I immediately noticed in PC:K was that the edge of map graphics didn't match the game map terrain/graphics. It was like at the edges the roads ended and didn't run off into the sunset or you know blend with the walls of the map like say a Combat Mission game or Mad Minutes 2nd Manassas. Has this been played with or fixed a little?

_____________________________

X3:Universe of games rules them all!! Xtra coming soon X3:REBIRTH 4th qtr 2011 YAY!

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 8
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 9:05:54 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14220
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

One of the things I immediately noticed in PC:K was that the edge of map graphics didn't match the game map terrain/graphics. It was like at the edges the roads ended and didn't run off into the sunset or you know blend with the walls of the map like say a Combat Mission game or Mad Minutes 2nd Manassas. Has this been played with or fixed a little?


Not a lot of work done in that regard. It's possible that someone could mod a specific map "skymat and skybox" to fit a specific map, but I don't know that it would work very well. You can adjust the texture of the skymat terrain to better match your map terrain, but edges affects will still appear. And of course there are different skyboxes that can be used, and hopefully users will create even more.

Thanks
rick

(in reply to diablo1)
Post #: 9
RE: ASL and PCO - 1/23/2011 9:29:53 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
No. There is one outside map area texture for all sides. You can choose what it is but it's the same for all four sides; in all directions.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/23/2011 9:30:11 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 10
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Comparing ASL and PCO Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.250