Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

How to prevent HQs from "Leading the Charge"...

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> How to prevent HQs from "Leading the Charge"... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How to prevent HQs from "Leading the Charge"... - 1/12/2011 11:48:32 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Note to anyone reading this thread: in it I have posted several examples of the HQ getting out ahead of combat/line units in action. After working on this issue for over a week and with Arjuna's excellent support (you won't find much better support anywhere), we have come to the following conclusions about many of the examples posted:

In all likelihood, the engine is working as designed in most of these cases. Here is the way to reduce the likelihood of your HQs getting exposed to the enemy:
Lesson #1 - If you are going to give orders to units at night, and it's important they act upon them pronto, then you had better set their rest option to None.
Lesson #2 - Check fatigue Levels and Straggler options before ordering attacks
Lesson #3 (FOR BFTB NOOBS LIKE ME) - To reduce the likelihood of "HQs Leading the Charge" incidents uncheck the stragglers box, forcing the HQ to wait for exhausted units before launching an attack or moving towards contact with the enemy. Remember, the default is checked.

*****ORIGINAL POST BEGINS HERE*****

Once again, probably my fault...

Why are my two battalion HQs leading the charge into no man's land while their entire KG stays behind and watches?

Is this supposed to be happening? Was it normal?

Pic attached. File saved.

Again. I want to emphasized that the engine... over all... is simply incredible. :) And I am glad that I have supported its development with a purchase of every product since HTTR. I think with assault times, it has come of age (though I wish I could set them on the fly). Amazing. :)






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/18/2011 6:17:47 PM >


_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/12/2011 11:55:43 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Can you send me a saved game taken just after the attack order was given but before the two Bn HQs took off.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 2
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 12:50:54 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Let me see. I HOPE I have one in between those two times.

_____________________________


(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 3
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 1:56:00 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
This MAY be another case. I don't know. It's not as blatantly obvious.

Actually, I remember working out some of these Battalion HQ leading charge issues in COTA.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 4
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 3:11:34 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Part of the issue is that HQs will be assigned to defend at the reserve location while the main body moves to the FUP in preparation for the assault. It would appear that in these examples the main body is not moving to the FUP. A secondary concern is that the reserveLoc is in fact eexposing the HQs and its mortars to potential threats. I will look at the selection criteria again for the reserveLoc. But I'm more intrigued by the absence of movement to the FUP by the main body. Do you have a saved game of the above example. Can you please email it to me. Thanks.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 5
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 3:25:45 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Yes. This lack of movement to the FUP is something I saw several times today. It happened not only here, but in the south with my Fallschirmjägers and what I felt to be a few other occassions.

I will send you the 7-Zip files for this situation.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 6
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 6:42:49 AM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
Status: offline
FWIW, I've also seen this behavior on more than one head scratching occasion.

Cheers!

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 7
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 7:46:04 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
This one is definitely an "HQ Leading the charge"...






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/13/2011 7:48:10 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to AKCLIMBER)
Post #: 8
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/13/2011 9:58:36 AM   
johndoesecond


Posts: 964
Joined: 8/3/2010
Status: offline
Besides the screen shots, can you attach here also a couple of saved games from these situations? I'd like to have a look.

Remember, I'm not a developer of this game, but just a curious player.



< Message edited by johndoesecond -- 1/13/2011 10:36:09 AM >

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 9
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 3:29:20 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Another example...




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to johndoesecond)
Post #: 10
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 1:28:56 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Saint Lo - A1




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 11
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 1:29:46 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Saint Lo - A2




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 12
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 1:30:37 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Saint Lo - A3




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 13
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 1:31:21 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Saint Lo - A4




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 14
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 1:32:11 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Bastogne Breakout - A1






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/14/2011 1:33:59 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 15
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 3:38:17 PM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
Status: offline
Interesting that you included the St. Lo examples. That's the scenario in which I've seen this behavior the most.

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 16
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 11:22:25 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Another great one.

You'd think the formation was pointing towards the top of the map. But, you will see in the next screen shot it is not!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/14/2011 11:23:10 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to AKCLIMBER)
Post #: 17
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 11:24:27 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Every unit in that town is under one command.

This example is about as obvious as it gets. And I got the files saved when I made the order and after it developed.

After two days of hunting, I have my great white shark! I am off to bed! YEEEEEEHA!!!!!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/14/2011 11:26:39 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 18
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 11:36:22 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
And this is what it looked like BEFORE I re-issued the order to try to protect the HQ which was out in front. So, it even moved ANOTHER HQ in front and all combat units had to go to the wings and in back. What came very shortly after the order, was the two images you see above.

ALL the HQs were brought to the forefront. Including the II/1020 which HAD been in back.

I wonder what Arjuna will find here. I find it impossible to believe that the HQs had the highest strengths so they had to be placed in front.

My dad used to be a company commander and he said that in most situations the Bn HQ was 500 to 600 yards in back of the front line (I think that is what he said!!! I don't remember the exact number anymore and will have to ask again).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/14/2011 11:39:02 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 19
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/14/2011 11:54:41 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
So, I ran a test to see if in an attack, the HQs would also go in front (since they might be the strongest units after all!)...

This is what happened... all HQs went to the back of the formation (THIS TIME :D--actually it happens correctly about 95 to 97% of the time)






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/18/2011 5:41:08 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 20
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/15/2011 12:00:35 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
And this is what it looks like when I set the formation which was just switched "right side up" by an attack order into a defensive formation again... Things fall into place making sense. With HQs at the back.

So, I am wondering if the program is having problems orienting the formation on the battlefield and when the formation "vee" gets flipped (a "vee" with blunt end trauma at the wide end and the brain at the very small back). Once "flipped", the "Vee" is backwards and then the HQs will then lead the charge or lead the defense until another order is placed which corrects the problem. So the whole formation is backwards somehow until an order which is cooincidentally given in the right situation and from a perspective the program understands rights everything again.

Just a hypothesis.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/15/2011 12:06:20 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 21
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/15/2011 4:26:17 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Not so much "leading the charge", but failing to fall back with (almost) everyone else.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 22
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/16/2011 1:56:44 AM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Not so much an HQ LEADS the charge, but an HQ LEADS ITS OWN CHARGE example.

All were close to the origin of all arrows and then my brigade commander decides NOT to follow his units into combat the safe, open way. No. He decides to head into the German infested woods on his own and then try to seek his way BACK to his units!

And fails. There are German engineers and everything in those woods at that crossing point. I already had to find out the hard way. :(




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/18/2011 7:17:30 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 23
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/17/2011 3:51:05 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Marshal Villars,

Re the Hoogerheide Defend incident.

I ran your saved games that you sent me ( thanks for that ) and in fact the formation chosen was fine as was the locations of the sub units. However, you gave that order to them at night time and left the Rest option to "normal". The subordinate BN HQs got their orders and started moving, reaching their nearby objectives in a few minutes. However, just after that the standard night reassessment kicked in adn all the sub units went to sleep.

Lesson #1. If you are going to give orders to units at night, and it's important they act upon them pronto, then you had better set their rest option to None.

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 1/17/2011 4:24:46 AM >


_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 24
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/17/2011 4:24:19 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Marshal,

Re the 901st Attack incident.

I checked out your saved game ( thanks again ). You had ordered the 901st Regt to attack with the stargglers option checked. Your Bn HQs were pretty tired but still able to Move. Alas the rest of your troops were knackered and refused to press on. See below. If you had unchecked the stragglers option then the Bns would have stopped en masse and the HQ would not have ended up out front. In this case I would not have ordered the attack as the troops were too tired.

So lesson #2 - Check fatigue Levels and Straggler options before ordering attacks






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 25
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/17/2011 4:26:46 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
I'm going to leave this issue for now as I think everything is working as designed. Next time I come to do the tutorial movies I will mention both these lessons. Thanks for the contribution guys.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 26
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/17/2011 4:37:03 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4368
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
RE: Stragglers

Page 63 of the manual needs to be updated.
-

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 27
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/17/2011 6:03:57 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

RE: Stragglers

Page 63 of the manual needs to be updated.
-



What needs to change?

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 28
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/18/2011 5:44:45 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
So to summarize:
Lesson #1. If you are going to give orders to units at night, and it's important they act upon them pronto, then you had better set their rest option to None.
Lesson #2 - Check fatigue Levels and Straggler options before ordering attacks
LESSON NUMBER THREE FOR BFTB NOOBS LIKE ME: To reduce the likelihood of "HQs Leading the Charge" incidents uncheck the stragglers box, forcing the HQ to wait for exhausted units before launching an attack or moving towards contact with the enemy.

Wow. Well. Like I said, I am always worried about throwing in a red herring. :( I hate it. Damn. Damn. Damn.

Anyway, great, great game.

There are a lot of intricacies to learn here. "Set rest to normal in this situation"/"Don't over exhaust your troops"/"Don't set to no rest in others". But it is only in its complexity that you can offer players options. So I fully support this. But, as you said, it probably is worth mentioning in tutorial videos.

Actually, I had been ordering movement at night with "no rest" options as I realized that was the only way to get troops to really move in the middle of the night. But I had been "disciplined" (in a nice way!) by fellow posters for issuing no rest orders as a possible reason for non-compliance by my units.

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/18/2011 6:03:20 PM >

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 29
RE: Battalion HQs "Leading the Charge"... - 1/18/2011 5:55:12 PM   
Marshal Villars


Posts: 976
Joined: 8/21/2009
Status: offline
Actually, I play the game with p. 63 printed out and in front of me. :)

This is what p.63 says about the stragglers option:

"Stragglers=when checked, the force will not stop and rest with any subordinates that are too exhausted to continue. Instead it will press on leaving the exhausted "straggler" behind. Otherwise the whole force may stop and rest with the exhausted unit. The default is on."

I think this would explain the situation then. And as I get better at the game, I will make fewer mistakes like this.

So, the box was checked and the force in the very first example (the two HQs) did not stop and rest with the subordinates who were too exhausted to continue, pressing on and leaving them behind.

I think that p.63 is worded correctly then. :) And I have learned something which will help me understand other "problem situations" which I fear may be red herrings.

< Message edited by Marshal Villars -- 1/18/2011 6:26:41 PM >

(in reply to Marshal Villars)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> How to prevent HQs from "Leading the Charge"... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.152