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Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 6:05:27 AM   
Capt Cliff


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I can get 3 division into a hex, per the rules and the game lets me. Why can't I get 4 brigades to stack in a single hex? The 4 Hungraian brigades will not stack together. Ummm ... am I missing something? 3 division equals 9 regements, so why don't 4 brigades stack?

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 6:08:12 AM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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It's 3 units of any size

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 5:21:02 PM   
Capt Cliff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

It's 3 units of any size



Huh?

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 5:39:04 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

It's 3 units of any size



Huh?


The rule is three units of any size.

This is not even the tenth thread on this subject. Not gonna change.

Anyway if you look at the Russian aspect, this is a great rule because otherwise the "stacking point limit" would have to change with time as doctrine and OOB changes; this is a rather elegant solution to that problem. I can accept a little distortion in the stacking of a few of the units; the game is already quite complex enough for me .


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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 5:41:09 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Yep. And you can't stack 3 combat units in a hex if there's a rail repair unit there already, nor can you repair a rail line in a hex with 3 combat units if you foolishly used up their MP.

Even an HQ unit takes up as much stacking space as a full Soviet Infantry or Tank Corps.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 5:42:16 PM   
Redmarkus5


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The limit should be "3 combat units". Anything else shouldn't count towards stacking. Simple. Elegant. ;)

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 7:13:00 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The limit should be "3 combat units". Anything else shouldn't count towards stacking. Simple. Elegant. ;)


I agree. The rationale I heard on the board from testers is that the stacking limit is based upon historical unit frontages. If so, what difference does the presense of an HQ or construction uinit make? IMO, this rule just makes it more difficult to protect HQ's.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 7:22:41 PM   
usecase

 

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I've added this to my list of things that I'd like to have, but it's not the end of the world. That's reserved for the fact that you can select an automated rail repair unit. I may have mentioned this before ;).

Ordinarily, I'm the most placid of folks, ask anyone. however, this one feature drives me demented. It may not matter to all the valiant PBEMers, where the Soviet players still seem to be fleeing across the steppes, but once you start to crush the Wehrmacht beneath your booted heel, you'll know. And suffer. Oh yes.


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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 7:31:00 PM   
tancred41

 

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The Soviet ability to create corps later on in the war does mitigate this somewhat.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/8/2011 11:46:49 PM   
Capt Cliff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The limit should be "3 combat units". Anything else shouldn't count towards stacking. Simple. Elegant. ;)



Elegant??!! Give me a break ... with 3 division in a hex you have 9 regements ... ok if one divisions regements each is in reserve then it's a 6 regement front over 10 miles. Now 3 brigades over 10 miles??!!! Perhaps 6 brigades or 3 divisions per hex or 2 divisions with 2 brigades ... it seems to me a bit of a rationalization to apply it to all units. Oh, and HQ's should not count toward stacking. What are they a company size unit!!??

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 12:26:34 AM   
Great_Ajax


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HQs include all the logistical and support "ass and trash" units and can number easily over 10,000 men.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The limit should be "3 combat units". Anything else shouldn't count towards stacking. Simple. Elegant. ;)



Elegant??!! Give me a break ... with 3 division in a hex you have 9 regements ... ok if one divisions regements each is in reserve then it's a 6 regement front over 10 miles. Now 3 brigades over 10 miles??!!! Perhaps 6 brigades or 3 divisions per hex or 2 divisions with 2 brigades ... it seems to me a bit of a rationalization to apply it to all units. Oh, and HQ's should not count toward stacking. What are they a company size unit!!??



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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 1:21:22 AM   
2ndACR


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 Care to know what frontage and how big an area VII Corp had in the 1st Gulf War?

You would be hard pressed just to get all of the 2nd Armored Cavalry into a 10 mile frontage area. Heck it was as far as the eye could see just M1a1, Bradleys, artillery, and Hemmits. And we only had 16,000 assigned during the GW1. Dragoon battle group. Baby Div led by a bird Colonel. lol

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 1:54:12 AM   
Zovs


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2nd ACR, I was in the 3rd ACR "Brave Rifles:Blood & Steel!"

I was transferred to the 8th ID with the 4/34 Armor and we shipped out with elements of the 3rd AD when we went to 1GW.

Lima Lima Mike Foxtrot and if you ain't Cav you ain't $h1t


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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 2:53:14 AM   
Great_Ajax


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I earned my spurs with 1st Armored and I'm now with the 45th Infantry Brigade :)

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

2nd ACR, I was in the 3rd ACR "Brave Rifles:Blood & Steel!"

I was transferred to the 8th ID with the 4/34 Armor and we shipped out with elements of the 3rd AD when we went to 1GW.

Lima Lima Mike Foxtrot and if you ain't Cav you ain't $h1t




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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 2:53:32 AM   
CarnageINC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

2nd ACR, I was in the 3rd ACR "Brave Rifles:Blood & Steel!"

I was transferred to the 8th ID with the 4/34 Armor and we shipped out with elements of the 3rd AD when we went to 1GW.

Lima Lima Mike Foxtrot and if you ain't Cav you ain't $h1t



ROFLMAO!

3rd ACR was nicely tucked in between 1st Armored and good ole 24th ID. Someone had to guide you guys in so you wouldn't get lost

Tankers is what makes the Cav look so good!

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/9/2011 3:47:06 AM   
2ndACR


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Ah, feels like old home week.

Surprised you all did not recognize my avatar. Unit crest of 2ndACR. Toujours Pret!!

I was actually in Eagle 2/2........Capt McMaster's troop at 73 Easting. That was a fight. He went on to command 3rd ACR.

I got out in 1993......went back into TX Guard in 2004 when they mobilized. Deployed to OIF3 in 05.

The good old days, 8th ID, 2ndACR still a Cav Regiment and not a Stryker unit. Able to deploy 11 combat div to the Gulf and still have 7 more to keep everything peaceful elsewhere. I don't think even think there are 8 full div left in the army. Sad Sad

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/10/2011 2:46:06 PM   
morganbj


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I was in the 1/2 Cav in Germany back in the early 70's. Best years of my life, even though I spent them on the border, at Graf, Hohenfels, CPXs, TEWTs, etc.

Mass quantities of German beer. Still carrying some of it around ... around my waist, that is.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/10/2011 4:28:44 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

HQs include all the logistical and support "ass and trash" units and can number easily over 10,000 men.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The limit should be "3 combat units". Anything else shouldn't count towards stacking. Simple. Elegant. ;)



Elegant??!! Give me a break ... with 3 division in a hex you have 9 regements ... ok if one divisions regements each is in reserve then it's a 6 regement front over 10 miles. Now 3 brigades over 10 miles??!!! Perhaps 6 brigades or 3 divisions per hex or 2 divisions with 2 brigades ... it seems to me a bit of a rationalization to apply it to all units. Oh, and HQ's should not count toward stacking. What are they a company size unit!!??




True, but in real life those 10k men are spread out all over the rear areas. They don't 'stack' with the combat troops as such. And I said "Elegant ;)". You left out the ;)

For the guys making comparisons with the Gulf, there are two factors I think you need to consider:

1. The US military has a vastly higher ratio of support to combat personnel than either the Axis or the Soviets WW2 armies ever did - it's something like 80/20 as opposed to 20/80.

2. In addition to the logistics tail, a modern 'infantry' division is fully mechanised and occupies a great deal more real estate than divisional sized infantry units once did. Something like the equivalent of 14 WW2 divisions engaged at Waterloo on a front of about 2 miles...




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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/10/2011 6:20:27 PM   
Smirfy

 

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I'm with Red on this a hex is around 70 square miles, are people trying to say and you could not fit airbases and HQ's in an area 70 square miles.

If you are struggling with this go to your own district zoom in on Google maps and it will make things simple to understand. Frontage is different than area. Only Combat units should count against stacking

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/10/2011 7:06:22 PM   
amatteucci

 

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Current stacking rules works, if we consider that they have to reflect actual doctrine and practice.
I myself posted examples in different threads here.

I'm also OK with HQs being subject to stacking restrictions. Again, it's a question of design for effect.

TOAW might have better stacking rules, if one considers simply how many people and stuff you can put into a given area, but it would be less realistic that the current three-units-fits-all system if applied to WitE.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 1/10/2011 7:36:33 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Thats about a Square mile if you scroll to the bottom;)

http://www.controltowers.co.uk/B/Ballyhalbert.htm


< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/10/2011 7:42:23 PM >

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 3/9/2011 10:53:03 PM   
amatteucci

 

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Since the search function is broken I'm reposting what I said about stacking rules in WitE when the issue appeared at first:

quote:


I was surprised too about that restriction at first. I thought: "Wait, we have powerful computers to instantly calculate troop and equipement densities and here we resort to this simplicistic boardgame-like stacking rule?".
But, after examining the rules about Soviet Corps' formation and trying how stacking actually works in the tutorial, I realized that it was a simple yet elegant solution to the actual problem on how to represent doctrinal limitations and historical unit frontages.

Let's consider soviet Rifle Divisions, just for example.
In 1941 a Soviet Rifle Division was expected to defend a sector of 14-20km deployed in a single echelon (I'm quoting figures from "Soviet Military Operational Art - In pursuit of Deep Battle" by col. D. Glantz) while attacked in sectors 5-6km wide. Considering that a game hex is 16km (10 miles) wide, the aforementioned figures mean one Rifle Division per hex in defense and three Rifle Divisions per hex in attack. Game staking works.
But it's not the end of the story. Starting from 1942 Soviet Rifle Divisions attack frontages began to shrink. From the 5-6km of 1941 and 3-4km in 1942 to 1.5-2km in 1945! That means that by the end of the war, the Red Army typically massed while attacking, in a given sector, three times the riflemen it was able (due to training and doctrine) to mass at the start of Barbarossa. In the game you can do too this consolidating three Rifle Divisions into a single Corps, and this without changing the basic stacking rules. The additional benefit is that it is impossible, for the Soviet player, to use hindsight and force its unit to use tactics they were simply not taught or trained to in 1941. The same thing could, more or less, be said for mechanized formations.

Summing up, in my opinion, this is probably the best solution to the density problem, given the constraint of an hex&counter type wargame.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 3/9/2011 10:56:49 PM   
fbs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

Since the search function is broken I'm reposting what I said about stacking rules in WitE when the issue appeared at first:



Hey, now the search function is working again! It works beautifully when the thread is in the first page and in bold.

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 3/9/2011 11:38:40 PM   
amatteucci

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

Hey, now the search function is working again! It works beautifully when the thread is in the first page and in bold.


Actually, I wanted to bump a different thread... well, it seems I'll blame again the broken search function!

< Message edited by amatteucci -- 3/9/2011 11:39:28 PM >

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 3/10/2011 6:32:19 AM   
76mm


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Not sure why it matters if HQs count toward stacking, as presumably HQs would not be in the front line hex anyway, and stacking only really matters at the front line, otherwise Russia has plenty of real estate...

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RE: Stacking in a Hex anomally?? - 3/10/2011 8:38:26 AM   
Caranorn


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I also feel that stacking as it is now works quite well, except maybe for support units. Maybe something like 3 combat and 1 support units of any sizes per hex. But when you consider hexes behind the front, we often already achieve densities not seen during the war. For me the only problem with stacking might be that it does not affect movement (moving through a hex with one combat unit should cost some MP over an empty hex, the more units present the costlier (road congestion), the best way to fight in this game right now is to start attacking with your units furthest from the front (preferably with HQ located forward), then move the units next furthest from the front forward and attack and so forth until you exploit with your most forward positioned units. In real life this would lead to a horrible mess of congested roads and mixed up units.

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