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The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 12/30/2010 4:54:35 AM   
bcgames


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The purpose of this list is provide suggestions on how to improve the WitE Editor. Improvement in editor performance is measured by the ability of the editor to provide:

a. The Scenario Designer with the tools he needs to rapidly create scenarios with ease.

b. The Player with easy-loading, user-created scenarios.
Post #: 1
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 12/30/2010 4:56:14 AM   
bcgames


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Provide the capability to define where the screen will center on a user-created scenario map. The Player should not have to scroll to where the game area is located on start-up.

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 2
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 12/30/2010 9:26:33 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Provide the capability to define where the screen will center on a user-created scenario map. The Player should not have to scroll to where the game area is located on start-up.


See my answer on other thread. In order it to work you need to set up the "frontline".

We were thinking to setup starting x,y but there is so many scenario parameters (and more are coming), than those are really redundant. And those static x,y may not work - the location of units is changing, so say some hex which is "important" in June 1922 in GC can be totally out of interest in June 1942.

< Message edited by Helpless -- 12/30/2010 9:30:39 AM >


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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 12/30/2010 9:28:42 AM   
bcgames


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Working...will report back.

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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 3:45:53 AM   
bcgames


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Would it be possible to program The Editor (Units Tab) to automatically maintain all previously assigned hhq assignments when a new unit is inerted into the unit list?

I've learned that inserting a unit into the list of units via The Editor (Units tab) will screw up the Higher Headquarters assignments for every single unit that follows that insertion. If that's 200+ or 2000+ units--then that's alot of work to deal with the unintended consequences of adding just one unit.


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Post #: 5
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 4:32:01 AM   
Great_Ajax


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I don't have this problem at all and I cut, paste, and insert all day in the unit editor.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Would it be possible to program The Editor (Units Tab) to automatically maintain all previously assigned hhq assignments when a new unit is inerted into the unit list?

I've learned that inserting a unit into the list of units via The Editor (Units tab) will screw up the Higher Headquarters assignments for every single unit that follows that insertion. If that's 200+ or 2000+ units--then that's alot of work to deal with the unintended consequences of adding just one unit.




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(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 6
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 4:34:41 AM   
bcgames


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Scenario development by third-parties should NEVER involve the modification of the generic data files. There will be no end to the mischief caused by the generation of multiple sets of generic data files floating about "in support" of this game. All data files for third party scenarios should be contained, isolated, and unable--in 10,000 passings of the moon--to influence for a moment any other War in the East stock scenario or any third-party generated scenario. This requirement is fundamental to sound the development of scenarios; scenarios that The Player can use without thought about the game directory, or backing things up, or any other impediments to, "I just want to play."

(in reply to bcgames)
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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 4:39:53 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I don't have this problem at all and I cut, paste, and insert all day in the unit editor.


We should explore why there is a difference. You have stated that you use stock generic data files; no TOE changes. Is this correct?

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Post #: 8
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 6:25:37 AM   
bcgames


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This is your contract with The Editor:



If you are good with this, then it is a matter of faith for you; and I respect that. For me? I want an editor that supports what I want to do--easily. Because Matrix included this editor in this game without a manual to explain it for a reason, well I then assume that they are simpatico with me--that this sumbitch is IN--TOO--IT--TIVE. Let's get after that idea, shall we? Cuz I don't want to hear ANYMORE how I don't understand something about something that didn't come with a manual. Editor: Yes.

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 9
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 11:16:41 AM   
Helpless


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Please post your questions and concerns, we will try to help you. (There could be delayed answer from me this week as I'm officially on vacations).

Just keep in mind, that editor can't be much easier than game itself. I'm afraid it would get more complicated as more features will be added. Trying to jump straight to making some scenario without playing the game is not going to make it easier.

With time some thing which look odd, will eventually become more obvious.

quote:

Would it be possible to program The Editor (Units Tab) to automatically maintain all previously assigned hhq assignments when a new unit is inerted into the unit list?

I've learned that inserting a unit into the list of units via The Editor (Units tab) will screw up the Higher Headquarters assignments for every single unit that follows that insertion. If that's 200+ or 2000+ units--then that's alot of work to deal with the unintended consequences of adding just one unit.


Just tried to insert an entry and all HHQ links shifted as they should. Please provide steps to replicate the problem. Thanks.



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Post #: 10
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 1:09:50 PM   
RedLancer


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Top of my wishlist is an easy way (one click) of moving between the Unit page whilst working in the files "off map" to the TOE Detail Page (in order to see the % held by individual equipment) and back again in order to easily amend unit holdings against TOE(OB). See picture



At the moment I have to go back to the map and access via the unit icon then to TOE (2 steps) which isn't too bad but going back again is 4 steps by which time I've forgotten what I was going to change!

From a modding perspective I find working in the scenario files to be OK - however I think that the concept of having generic data files to be restrictive particularly for those who enjoy exploring what if scenarios. I have already installed a copy of the game which I am keeping as stock as I am working on a scenario exploring changes in production by streamlining german AFV production. Given the design decision not to include control of production in game the only way to explore this area is through the data files - however within the current file construct to do this without changing the original slots is horrendously complicated and as bcgames rightly highlights means that one modder's changes may ruin someone elses.

I simply ask at this point whether changing the generic file concept is an area open for discussion or a non-starter.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/4/2011 9:28:07 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Top of my wishlist is an easy way (one click) of moving between the Unit page whilst working in the files "off map" to the TOE Detail Page (in order to see the % held by individual equipment) and back again in order to easily amend unit holdings against TOE(OB). See picture


This can be done.

quote:


I simply ask at this point whether changing the generic file concept is an area open for discussion or a non-starter.


Main purpose of generic data is to simplify maintenance of multiple scenarios which are using the same basic databases. At some point we even moved some data from scenario to generic and I'd like move some more. It is a real pain to update all of the scenarios just because one device was misspelled.

There could be some solution allowing to keep stock and modded data together, but it is not so trivial and easy to implement.

_____________________________

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Post #: 12
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/5/2011 4:08:36 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

(There could be delayed answer from me this week as I'm officially on vacations).


Pavel,

Thank-you for your patience with us. Go enjoy your vacation; you deserve it!

bcgames

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Post #: 13
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/5/2011 10:09:00 AM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
quote:

Top of my wishlist is an easy way (one click) of moving between the Unit page whilst working in the files "off map" to the TOE Detail Page (in order to see the % held by individual equipment) and back again in order to easily amend unit holdings against TOE(OB). See picture

This can be done.
quote:


I simply ask at this point whether changing the generic file concept is an area open for discussion or a non-starter.

Main purpose of generic data is to simplify maintenance of multiple scenarios which are using the same basic databases. At some point we even moved some data from scenario to generic and I'd like move some more. It is a real pain to update all of the scenarios just because one device was misspelled.
There could be some solution allowing to keep stock and modded data together, but it is not so trivial and easy to implement.


Thanks for this ! With regard to generic files you have confirmed the rationale for their use - to be honest this is not an issue I'll push as I only really play against AI - I get most of my fun from designing and creating orbats. As I have the disk space and I can do this by having several copies of the game on my system. I thought the issue needed highlighting though.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/6/2011 4:26:24 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

There could be some solution allowing to keep stock and modded data together, but it is not so trivial and easy to implement.

I find no pleasure in reporting the following. It is not so trivial nor easy to implement a user-created scenario that can be played without interfering with or corrupting the data found in either stock scenarios, user-created scenarios, or both. This is a fact regardless of the level of difficulty in finding a solution.

I want to create and distribute new material for this game. I do not want to screw up somebody else's files just because I have a cool, new thing I want to share. I believe that the game system must provide a "lock-and-load-let's play" capability for the casual player. There should be no need for "back-up-your-data" warnings, nor can there be any game directory "exploratory surgery" operations--a popular experience with some mods/new scenarios for other games.

If this requirement can't be met, then I'm O.K. with that. I know this is a complicated game system. It is what it is. Let's acknowledge that it is so and move on if there is nothing that can be done.

As it currently stands, creating and distributing new Scenarios, OBs, Aircraft, Devices, etc., etc. is done at the creator's peril and at the user's displeasure if his favorite self-entered Me-109G statistics get obliterated without warning--for every scenario in his library. These issues will be magnified by each new participant in the process of creating and sharing with the WitE community--"something new"--new data, new OBs, better data, better OBs, that Leader wuz better than currently rated, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum.

I sit here contemplating the Tscherkassy Pocket, with a stack of newly-purchased books saying, "DO IT!" But I already know that after I've left Hell's Gate, my sceanrio will be broken by something some other well-meaning contributor is doing right now to War in the East. And the intended user? Well...given a page-long README file instructing how to load, back-up, deconflict, he will do the smart thing and move along to play scenarios that are more fun, right now, and less...ummm...conflicting.

Perhaps the WitE development community can address these issues by doing one of three things.

A. Bite the bullet and isolate all data involved in a user-created scenario.

B. Require newly created work to be cleared by a bevy of WitE experts from Matrix before it is distributed to the gaming public, or...

C. Inform the using Public that The current Editor is intended for personal use only (Option C is the current and safe game-play default whether it was intended or not)

I certainly encourage opposing views regarding my premise that there is a data-sharing/confliction problem, and if there is one, whether my set of proposed solutions is correct and/or complete.

So heave-ho! I want to be wrong! I just want to design scenarios--that's my apple cart.

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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/6/2011 10:47:28 AM   
RedLancer


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Whilst I said this is not an issue I wish to push bcgames' previous post has drawn me back as to my mind this is something that is going to come to head sooner rather than later.

Definitions: I am going to call the data in the stock generic files: 'core data'. Those who create scenarios using the 'core data' as is: designers. Those who want to play with the 'core data': modders. This discussion does not consider graphics.

I appreciate where we are and the rationale for the generic files. You may argue that now the lion's share of creating the core data has been done their need is less important (unless of course a future code change requires a large scale readjustment of that core data). Having simply changed Stug to StuG in my files to address my retention issues I can appreciate Pavel's viewpoint entirely.

To my mind the core data is almost a perfect reflection of the leaders, equipment, devices etc that historically existed in the East with regard to the functioning of the War in the East game engine as envisaged by the production team. There are two areas where it might be considered not to be perfect. Firstly the core data is incomplete. An example being that some very minor bits are missing - an odd leader or a vehicle - Dickermax and Sturer Emil for example - all 4 of them existed and fought in the East and arguably have their place in the core data. Adding to the core data is simple providing that some element of configuration control is applied. The second is when a designer believes that the core data is not a true reflection of real life - i.e. he believes that an attack value needs upping. Something you see debated quite a lot on the WitP:AE forums.

As I understand it a designer (happy to use the core data as is) has no problems. I'm already 14 turns into my 'Lost Victories Light' Scenario where I rejigged the 43-45 scenario to better reflect an elastic defence with a backhand blow towards the Sea of Azov. Whilst I moved, amended and added units I have not touched the core data.

The crux of the problem is that modding this game (changing the core data) is a nightmare if you wish to share your work. bcgames is completely correct. Let's be honest this is going to happen: if you look at the popular WitP:AE non stock scenarios they are either small scenarios (not campaign) or have made significant changes to what would be in WitE core data (e.g. DaBabes and Reluctant Admiral).

So what.....well there appears to be 3 options.
1. Do nothing, embrace anarchy and hope for the best.
2. The community implements its own configuration control of the core data - but this will require some element of production team buy in as future patches might undo this.
3. A change in code as to how core data is handled.

What do others think?

_____________________________

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Post #: 16
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/6/2011 2:26:15 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Red Lancer has the gist of it. If you mess with the core files, you're modding and you do so at your own risk. Creating scenarios using the proper data (designing) is fully supported and it works just fine. Over the holiday break, I built one scenario from scratch, did a major revision to another one, and I currently have another scratch scenario in the works. I don't touch the core files. The design philosophy of the OB files and ground elements is if a significant number of ground elements saw combat, then it should be in. If five Jpz 3600-Is saw service with the 500th SS Special Service Company, I wouldn't expect it to be modeled.

Trey

_____________________________

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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/7/2011 11:31:26 AM   
Iron Duke


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bcgames / Red Lancer / el hefe

I wonder if a mod manager program would be able to handle things?
Some of the players of WitP AE use a program called jonesoft mod manager and they swear by it

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products-jsgme.html

Downloaded the program

Very easy to use and set up and seems to work ok
I can load/run WitE with just the base scenarios and generic data etc. or run the mod manager 1st and activate additional moded scenarios w/ moded generic data , then start/run WitE and the mod scenarios appear in the list and generic data is matched to the moded scenario . if you added .bmp photo's and .tga icons as long as they are added to the 'mod package' they appear in the new scenarios.
Only issue i can see is only one mod scenario should be loaded at any time to minimise clashes in the various databases.

< Message edited by Iron Duke -- 1/7/2011 1:47:06 PM >


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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/7/2011 1:54:44 PM   
shane56

 

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Evening,
the whole point of setting up scenarios and equipment lists is to be able to set them up the way you want them to be modelled, as historical scenarios are good (and will play some of them, not to sure when though), but the what if's are what drive me, and there are plenty to be explored, and most will be based on what if fact..
eg.. attack by 11th army from rumania at start of 41 GC not two weeks later combined with para-troops, take out leningrad and not divert forces to ag centre and 2nd & 5th pz divs do not goto france, operation barbarossa is setup as a two season campaign from the start, in42 take out leningrad, oranienbaum and clear area between demyansk and rzhev, in42 campaign keep 11th army in the south and not send it north, in 42/43 attempt to successfully withdraw ag b 6th army from stalingrad and ag a from caucasus and when time is right turn around and beat up the red army, do not carry out citadel instead do manstein's backhend strategy, and many many others. In terms of units etc, do not form any or disband all the luftwaffe field divs etc, etc..
What I am getting at here, is that to do this we the modelers will not be satisfied with doing it in the sceanario and will want to change ground elements and toe's just for starters which currently can only be done in the core files, so unless the game is setup with separate user core files, so you have a sequence of first opening a scenario with the core files loaded in overiding the scenario data files, then lastly the user files are loaded in overing scenario and core data, that way the user gets what he wants and the core files remain unchanged. I want total control and flexibility in doing this with no hard coding freezing or limitations. Remember in this game we are the supreme warlords.

after a year or so the historical games will be worn out, and then the gamers will want something else, with the what if's being one of them..
thanks ..shane

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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/8/2011 2:27:06 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

I wonder if a mod manager program would be able to handle things?
Some of the players of WitP AE use a program called jonesoft mod manager and they swear by it

http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products-jsgme.html

Downloaded the program

Very easy to use and set up and seems to work ok
I can load/run WitE with just the base scenarios and generic data etc. or run the mod manager 1st and activate additional moded scenarios w/ moded generic data , then start/run WitE and the mod scenarios appear in the list and generic data is matched to the moded scenario . if you added .bmp photo's and .tga icons as long as they are added to the 'mod package' they appear in the new scenarios.
Only issue i can see is only one mod scenario should be loaded at any time to minimise clashes in the various databases.

WOW! This is awesome. I just downloaded it to see how it works. Thanks!

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Post #: 20
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/8/2011 3:00:59 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

So what.....well there appears to be 3 options.
1. Do nothing, embrace anarchy and hope for the best.
2. The community implements its own configuration control of the core data - but this will require some element of production team buy in as future patches might undo this.
3. A change in code as to how core data is handled.

What do others think?

I am for any option that maximizes production of scenarios and mods. The enemy to this goal is player frustration caused by data conflicts with scenarios and/or mods created by third-parties, and/or game patches released by Matrix. Cuz this is a wishlist, I wish for Option #3...with a slight change in wording.

Don't change at all how the code current handles core data...leave it as is. Provide the scenario designer/modder the capability to block core data from loading. This should be a simple radio button. Under the hood, the code takes the data file names for that scenario and loads them instead. As such, nothing happens to any Matrix-created scenarios or any Core Data scenarios developed using the criteria you suggest in your post/Option #2.

Now...If wishes were horses then beggars would ride. So off the wish list and on to the problems of right now. I think your "core data" language plus el hefe's description of a "mod" provide a good framework for the WitE community to understand what they are getting from a third-party--or designing--is it a Core Data Scenario or is it a Mod? A Core Data Scenario is locked-and-loaded-ready-to-play. A Mod requires the use of the Generic Mod Enabler as Iron Duke suggests or manual file swapping.



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RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/8/2011 3:06:28 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shane_056

What I am getting at here, is that to do this we the modelers will not be satisfied with doing it in the sceanario and will want to change ground elements and toe's just for starters which currently can only be done in the core files, so unless the game is setup with separate user core files, so you have a sequence of first opening a scenario with the core files loaded in overiding the scenario data files, then lastly the user files are loaded in overing scenario and core data, that way the user gets what he wants and the core files remain unchanged. I want total control and flexibility in doing this with no hard coding freezing or limitations. Remember in this game we are the supreme warlords.

after a year or so the historical games will be worn out, and then the gamers will want something else, with the what if's being one of them..

I like this wish too.


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Post #: 22
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/10/2011 7:58:57 AM   
bcgames


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Add German Infantry and Panzer Kampfgruppe for the period 1941-45 to the generic TOE(OB).

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 23
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 1/11/2011 8:08:28 AM   
bcgames


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Add to the generic _ob file German security regiments, landesshutz battalions, SS panzergrenadier battalions, and korpsabteilung.

Add to the generic _ob file Soviet antiaircraft divisions, separate tank brigades, Guards tank brigades, Guards motorized brigades, Guards heavy gun regiments, Guards heavy antitank regiments, security battalions, and antitank rifle battalions.

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 24
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 2/2/2011 4:27:16 AM   
bcgames


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Add ability to assign hex ownership in small scenarios by either clicking on the appropriate hexes or by providing a capability to draw a "front line".

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Post #: 25
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 2/4/2011 5:32:25 AM   
bcgames


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Add capability to "zero out"--with one tick box--all impacts of the strategic game on short, isolated area scenarios. No production, no replacements.

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Post #: 26
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 2/5/2011 12:40:29 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Add capability to "zero out"--with one tick box--all impacts of the strategic game on short, isolated area scenarios. No production, no replacements.


Like that suggestion..

Would also like to see the ability to "zero out" the Units tab for new scenario creation.

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 27
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 5/9/2011 4:19:45 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Add ability to assign hex ownership in small scenarios by either clicking on the appropriate hexes or by providing a capability to draw a "front line".

Done. See Editor Hotkeys post on this thread here.

What else do you wish to see?

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 28
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 5/10/2011 2:07:21 AM   
Captain B


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Hey guys,

A couple of suggestions for the editor.

1. Early on I asked about having the ability to change the morale and experience levels in Air Groups. You can change them, but they go right back to the default when you save the file. I would like to see that function fixed in the editor.

2. Also, (other than by using the CSV's) a way to change all of a Units "elements" to the same "experience" number and maybe even the number damaged other than one element at a time. In other words, if I want to drop a German's division for a division that has each of its elements experience at "80" to "70" I have to do each element one at a time. Frustrating. Of course, I have started using the CSV's much more regularly for unit editing...but the column headings are not always intuitive, that would help.

3. How about a listing of what each database contains and what the range of numbers mean. For example, If I look at the Aircraft Database, I see an Armor number of "1" for the Bf 109K-4. What is the acceptable range? 1-10, 1-100? Is one better or is 100 better? Similarly, the reliability is "10". does that mean 10% chance of flying or a 90% chance of flying? Same thing for maneuver...is 40 better than 50 or is 40 better than 30?

4. An editor manual explaining all of this

5. I'll add more "nice to haves" to this list later. Thanks.

_____________________________

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(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 29
RE: The Editor: Scenario Designers' Wishlist - 4/15/2021 7:58:25 PM   
antwniago

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 3/16/2002
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
Could we see an increase in the size of the AOG database - currently it is only 475 rows with 60+ being free but scattered in ones and twos between all existing entries, a block of 50-100 spare at the end would be helpful to save scattering new entries.


(in reply to Captain B)
Post #: 30
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