Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

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caerr
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Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by caerr »

I present to you as the primary case the Mechanoid Empire. While they have quite powerful defences you only need to get one transport to reach their planet, and then it's game over. Instant surrender, all their stuff belong to me now. The same goes for other empires more or less, since without their homeworld they're unlikely to have enough income to field large fleets and armies.

The problem is that base defences, even if formidable, share their firepower between enemy ships, and if you have large enough fleet the defences become totally incapable of stopping troop transports, which should be their top priority. I can think of a few solutions.

1) Focus fire
Reprogram the targetting AI so that it knows to prioritize on troop ships on invade missions.

2) Area weapons
Add lots, and I mean lots of area damage weapons to the homeworld starbase design. The only way to reliably stop incoming troop ships atm.

3) Improved planetary shields
Give the planetary shield ability to block troop invasions until certain conditions are met. Say, give the shield some hitpoints and you need to bombard it until troops can pass.

4) Slow-mo field
A new planetary facility or starbase component, that would greatly slow down incoming enemy ships, giving defenders more time to deal with the threat.

Sithuk
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by Sithuk »

Absolutely agree with caerr. I was on the cusp on posting something very similar.

I've been playing RoTS intensely over the hols. Once I get a task force together and take the first HW, I just keep steam rollering over the rest one by one. Troop transports must no longer be able to simply walk past starbases.

What about a massive bonus being given to defenders from units left in orbit? I like the idea of having to take down starbases before any invasion is possible.
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BigWolfChris
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by BigWolfChris »

Another problem is, the AI simply don't defend well
Even if you don't have the desire to land troops, you can decimate a AI home system with 2 or 3 fleets

Some form of automatic planetary defence is needed
Far example, for every 200M Population, the planet will generate a surface weapons platform with a single laser based on the latest laser technology (all automatic... or even give the player to choose which weapon a planet uses)
The priority for these would be transports and any ships actually bombarding the planet, only after those it attacks other ships

Also, it would make sense that for each XM population, militia automatically forms up whenever an invasion is taking place (don't know if this mechanic is already present or not)
The above two together means it would talk a hell of a force to take out a homeworld, while small colonies will still remain pretty easy depending on defensive bases and ships
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diablo1
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by diablo1 »

So the ai sucks more or less? Well you won't find that in X3 Universe as the Xenon come at you with destroyers very early in the game. I've lost everything in systems bordering them. I'm glad some of you are honest and really tell what this game is like. I was fixing to buy it but I think I shall wait much longer now until they create a challenging ai like X3:Terran universe. [:)]
X3:Universe of games rules them all!! Xtra coming soon X3:REBIRTH 4th qtr 2011 YAY!
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by ASHBERY76 »

I make it a house rule to take an A.I's homeworld last.To be fair it does try to build defences and troops.
forsaken1111
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by forsaken1111 »

ORIGINAL: diablo1

So the ai sucks more or less? Well you won't find that in X3 Universe as the Xenon come at you with destroyers very early in the game. I've lost everything in systems bordering them. I'm glad some of you are honest and really tell what this game is like. I was fixing to buy it but I think I shall wait much longer now until they create a challenging ai like X3:Terran universe. [:)]
Seriously, please stop trying to promote your crappy game on our forum.
caerr
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by caerr »

I think the one militia per 1000 million pop is already in the game, but I'm not sure how it works. They don't all show up at invasion time, that's for sure. They're either more of a ghost army or they trickle in as the invasion progresses. I like the automatic defences thing, trying to take a homeworld should be a risky affair. One that you tackle after all other resistance has fallen.

Well in X3, I managed to destroy a capital ship with a fighter, how's that for AI. [;)]
diablo1
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by diablo1 »

Well in X3, I managed to destroy a capital ship with a fighter, how's that for AI

Sure you did sure you did.
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caerr
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by caerr »

Or should I mention the numerous times my ship autopilot has crash landed me on an asteroid. Or perhaps my brand new capital ship exploding while trying to undock from a shipyard. Not to mention the AI totally stops responding if there's too much stuff on the screen. I still love it though, just like I love DW!
forsaken1111
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by forsaken1111 »

ORIGINAL: caerr

Or should I mention the numerous times my ship autopilot has crash landed me on an asteroid. Or perhaps my brand new capital ship exploding while trying to undock from a shipyard. Not to mention the AI totally stops responding if there's too much stuff on the screen. I still love it though, just like I love DW!
You forgot visiting a system before you're supposed to, thus breaking the campaign script and causing the whole storyline to cease. [:)]
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lordxorn
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by lordxorn »

Yeah let's put this X3 to bed, it is a great game with a sorry excuse for a campaign. (Still not even close to the classic in that genre which is Freelancer)

Distant Worlds is a great 4x, that still needs work and just had a patch 4 days ago. (Is considered by many to be as good as the classic in this genre which is MOO 1+2)



PDiFolco
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by PDiFolco »

ORIGINAL: caerr

I think the one militia per 1000 million pop is already in the game, but I'm not sure how it works. They don't all show up at invasion time, that's for sure. They're either more of a ghost army or they trickle in as the invasion progresses. I like the automatic defences thing, trying to take a homeworld should be a risky affair. One that you tackle after all other resistance has fallen.

Well in X3, I managed to destroy a capital ship with a fighter, how's that for AI. [;)]
1 troop for 1000 million pop (!!) is a joke, given a basic transport can hold 8 of them...We need like 50 times more!
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WoodMan
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by WoodMan »

I'm sure if we get the message through Elliot will improve it.  Is this using the latest beta patch?  One of the changes was the Mechanoids better defend their homeworld with more troops, if you don't think its good enough, post over in that thread.  Its a beta patch, if one of the changes isn't working to your satisfaction mention it, hopefully then it will be fixed before the official release of the patch.

Also, it may be worth mentioning your own troop defense strategies, if you want the AI to play like you and defend as well as you do, its probably best to actually mention what it is that you do that is better than the AI, how many troops you use etc. Remember depending on the start conditions though your strategies may be different to others who play on harsher starting conditions (less money).
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nammafia
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by nammafia »

Like most players, I also agree that it is too easy to take over home planet and planets with star base and defend stations.  Star bases and stations must have destroying troop transports and troop carrying ships as its highest priority. 
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caerr
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by caerr »

ORIGINAL: WoodMan
I'm sure if we get the message through Elliot will improve it.  Is this using the latest beta patch?  One of the changes was the Mechanoids better defend their homeworld with more troops, if you don't think its good enough, post over in that thread.  Its a beta patch, if one of the changes isn't working to your satisfaction mention it, hopefully then it will be fixed before the official release of the patch.

Also, it may be worth mentioning your own troop defense strategies, if you want the AI to play like you and defend as well as you do, its probably best to actually mention what it is that you do that is better than the AI, how many troops you use etc. Remember depending on the start conditions though your strategies may be different to others who play on harsher starting conditions (less money).

Yes, this is the beta patch. This is how it went.
  • I warp in my fleet and make sure the transport ship is lagging behind my attack ships, which is no problem because it's naturally slower than the rest of the fleet.
  • I get harassed by the defending fleet, none of them pay any attention to the transport ship.
  • Once I reach the planetary defences I start to suffer major losses, however the transport ships slowly creeps its way, past the defences which neglect the ship entirely, to the planet.
  • My fleet gets entirely wiped out and moments later the troops hoist my flag on the planet.

Even under the current game mechanics, the enemy had ample opporturnity to foil my invasion but did not take it.

I don't think increasing the number of defending troops is solely the answer, the problem is that transport ships are too easily able to land on even well defended planets.

As to troop strategies, the troop management AI doesn't cut it. Especially for the weaker races you need a large surplus of troops, since they will be dying a lot until you can get some decent cloning going on.

As a defender I practice what I preach. ;) I control the battle manually and focus fire on the transport ships. Of course I can't be there all the time, so sometimes a transport slips through and I lose a planet. A best way to win an invasion is to prevent it from happening in the first place.


forsaken1111
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by forsaken1111 »

Of course if they simply make everything target troop transports first then I can design a decoy 'troop transport' with massive shields and armor and they'll all shoot at it while my fleet shreds them.
caerr
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by caerr »

I did think that, but luckily the game has ship scanner component now, and the AI could deduct that there are no troops on board and ignore it.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi everyone,

Elliot will have to chime in too, but I expect that improving the AI's defense of its home worlds will not be a problem. It does try to defend its homeworld, but if you time it right there are certainly moments where its defense is weaker than it should be due to fleets being absent and/or troops being recruited while others were loaded and sent out on ships.

I think the AI in ROTS does do a better job overall than the original Distant Worlds AI, but there's always room for improvement.

Diablo1, this forum is for discussion of Distant Worlds. The general discussion forum is for other games. Your posts come very close to the definition of trolling, consider yourself warned.

Everyone else, please keep your posts and responses civil.

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- Erik
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feygan
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by feygan »

I don't think too often it's just a case of the ai not bothering to have enough troops for just the homeworld but an overall shortage. It will recruit troops to go off on an invasion but not leave enough in researve to defend. I often take homeworlds with a decoy, I will invade a weaker world of little importance, the ai then gets lots of troops ready to retake the planet, as soon as I see the ships getting close I then send off my invasion force and find their homeworld with hardly any troops left on there.

For me this is the biggest issue in that the ai is too frugal with the amount of troops it recruits. I do realise that large amounts of troops do cost alot to maintain, but there should be a margin of error involved rather than what it seems to be is "ok troops cost lots so I don't want them hogging my money sitting about drinking, I need 6 for that invasion so I will just build 6"

In my own empires I tend to always have at least 10 on my homeworld then 5 on specific well developed worlds with 3 on new ones on the empire edge, this costs alot to upkeep but does mean i don't get caught off guard. I', not suggesting that should be how many the ai builds but just that it should think in a similar way.
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EisenHammer
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RE: Taking enemy homeworlds way too easy?

Post by EisenHammer »

I think Number 3 would fixed the problem.

3) Improved planetary shields
Give the planetary shield ability to block troop invasions until certain conditions are met. Say, give the shield some hitpoints and you need to bombard it until troops can pass.

And also maybe adding fighters and missile bases to planets.
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