Command level: high or low?

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Command level: high or low? - 11/4/2010 2:25:36 PM

johndoesecond

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This post by wodin in another thread made me have a thought or two ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I always stayed away from large scenarios in the previous games...however as the Bulge has so many I decided to go for it...the lesson is you have to rely on your sub's more and give orders to regiment or even brigade level....on the odd occasion when the need arises you can give orders lower down....it does demand a different way of playing and to be honest I really enjoyed it...it was liberating....I suggest the Road to Bastogne scenario as the Germans...thats the one I went for and found it alot easier to manage than previously imagined...there are still large scenarios I look at and find daunting....but once you get started with them it becomes second nature....I also find checking all the Obj's and the time they turn on or off and then plan accordingly...

So go for it....and think at the level of a higher commander looking at the scenario form an operational view rather than the smaller scenarios which is more tactical. At times you will jump in and give orders to the odd company and battalion...I also always man manage my art...by that I mean at the start I give each of my heavy Arty a defend in situ command....then when the battlefield moves out of range (or just before) I give them a move\defend order closer to the action.

Yeah, you're right, that possibility is exactly where this game really shines!

I'd be truly interested to know just how smart, effective and quick the AI is at that level of command.

Indeed, it seems to me (i.e. that's the impression I get from reading other peoples' playing experiences on this forum) that the canonical level of command is on battalion level: that's basically how most people play, and in fact, Dave's tutorial videos - being inspirational as they are, and revealing the true spirit of the game as authentically interpreted by one of its greatest masterminds - give just that same impression about what is the most "appropriate" level of command.

Furthermore, if my previous remarks are true, then I assume that the game has been most extensively tested with that way of commanding, thus probably offering the greatest experimental case base to fine tune the AI (I know that a good algorithm should work on different scales, but perfect fractals exist only in mathematics, not in nature).

So, it would really be interesting if we try to set up some sort of a collective experimental effort to see just how regimental / brigade operational commanding compares to mainly battalion-level one.

Above, I was wondering about how smart, effective and quick the AI is at that level, for I think these three should roughly be the relevant criteria: smart (and yes, I saw regimental AI do silly things), effective (and yes, I saw regimental AI be self-crippling and ineffective), and quick (and yes, oh boy, I say regimental AI do plans and replans and self-loop over its own order delays and take ages to actually start the things rolling).

So, when I say experimental effort, maybe it would be possible to systematically compare how a human player commanding on battalion level performs with respect to a human player commanding on more operational level. Of course, to level the playing field, an essential precondition would be that the scenario in both cases have never been played before, since otherwise the player commanding at battalion level would have the sorts of knowledge the AI of regimental or brigade HQs do not have at the beginning.

What are your thoughts on all this?

Thank you for your attention.

< Message edited by johndoesecond -- 11/4/2010 2:32:14 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Command level: high or low? - 11/9/2010 11:28:07 AM

Nikolaj

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From: Copenhagen, Denmark
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As you know, I have my own doubts about regimental level AI. However, I'm still not sure whether I'm doing something wrong, or if there's some "trick" to efficiently commanding at that level.

I suspect that at least a part of the problems I've experienced, are related to road jams, bridge crossings and similar situations, where the AI may not be able to move as fast as I want it to. Another problem may be with my use of FUP's and possibly the scope of the order (whether I order it to attack halfway across the map, using several waypoints, or attack an enemy position less than a km away).

Anyway, I'm not quite sure I understand what you're proposing. Do you want two seperate players to play the same scenario, using different command levels, and then compare the results? If so, wouldn't the (possible) difference in levels, between the players, make a significant difference to the outcome? Also, I suspect that a player commanding solely on the battalion level (or even the company level), will almost always do better, as long as he/she is willing to constantly pause, and generally use much more time on planning. As good as the AI in BftB is, a human is still better (at least, I assume that's the case).

Still, I'd very much like to know how other players handle the regimental AI - particularly the ones who have had positive experiences using it. I'm thinking of doing another AAR, at some point, using solely that level of command. Hopefully, someone will then be able to point out my mistakes, or at least explain what's happening, and why. :)

(in reply to johndoesecond)

Post #: 2

RE: Command level: high or low? - 11/9/2010 10:08:16 PM

Deathtreader

Posts: 1022
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Vancouver, Canada.
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Hi,

Assuming I've correctly interpreted your post, my experience has generally been that when commanding at the Regimental/Brigade level:

1/ Reg. HQ plus one battalion and a few assorted line support and/or just support units works very well.

2/ Reg. HQ plus 2 battalions and a few assorted line support and/or just support units works best when I both specify the FUP AND the target is either within about 2 klicks or more than 6 away. The middle distance seems to have a higher incidence of units milling around or taking forever or both.

2/ Reg. HQ plus 3 or more battalions and odds n' sods is usually something I avoid as it's more often than not a frustrating experience unless the target is very close.

Of course, your mileage may vary..........

Perhaps this is an area that could be improved upon with the development going on as a result of the Defence contract!

Rob.

_____________________________

So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)

(in reply to johndoesecond)

Post #: 3

RE: Command level: high or low? - 11/13/2010 6:17:59 PM

johndoesecond

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@Deathtreader and Nikolaj: Thank you both for sharing your experiences. That is the sort of information I was curious about.

@Nikolaj: Yes, I was thinking about something that could allow us to make (more objective) comparisons between different playing styles. Of course, you'd have the differences due to things you mention (player's level, prior knowledge of scenarios, etc.) , but maybe, if you make many trials shufflung and switching commanding styles, players and scenarios, you could on average neutralise these sources of variance.

Well, really, you're right: it would be quite complicated to set up an experiment with some significance.

I will make few controlled tests and will be back to you to share my findings.

Cheers.

(in reply to Deathtreader)

Post #: 4

RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 1:23:17 AM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2216
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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I hadnt played this in months but did the tutorial today.I only gave commands to the divs and the ai did ok.Got marginal victory as Americans.

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RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 3:02:18 AM

Lieste

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I assume you mean Combat Command - which is equivalent to Brigade/Regiment (one third of a Division), as the Divisional HQ doesn't arrive until the end of Day 1, with CCB shortly after and CCR the next night.

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Post #: 6

RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 5:21:57 AM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2216
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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Yes CC.Another question.Let's say for example I have a CC with a 20 minute order delay.I give an order,but change my mind 2 minutes later.Would the order delay be 42 minutes before they carry out the new order?

(in reply to Lieste)

Post #: 7

RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 7:14:45 AM

Pawsy

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Joined: 12/27/2010
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As I understand it issuing orders has a cumulative affect on the staff load so there would be an increased delay that would depend on the quality of the commander and staff. I would assume the greater number of units at Regt and Bde level would increase the length of the delay in issuing orders. I think you should expect the quality of command to be variable especially in units like Volks Grenadiers. I enjoy the game because of variability in command ability it seems to better reflect the real world.

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Post #: 8

RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 2:47:39 PM

johndoesecond

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Yes CC.Another question.Let's say for example I have a CC with a 20 minute order delay.I give an order,but change my mind 2 minutes later.Would the order delay be 42 minutes before they carry out the new order?

No. When you issue that second order, the countdown for that order to be planned and propagate would start from 40.

< Message edited by johndoesecond -- 8/29/2011 2:48:16 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 3:42:11 PM

Lieste

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I'd say that a 20 minute delay is far too short for a CC/RCT/Regt/Bde in game anyway - something nearer 40 minutes to an hour is more like it - possibly far longer with low quality formations.

If two orders are given immediately after each other, then I'd expect the 'waiting' period to be only the order propagation for the second order (to include the user delay in giving the order into the final start time). Things are slightly different if a longer period is left between the two orders so that the sub-units are already moving. Now the orders delay on the CC HQ is still the normal delay, but if moving there may be an interval before the unit halts*. There will be a longer delay in halting the sub-units - the CC HQ must generate it's own halt order and then pass it on. The Bn will start planning further moves as soon as the halt order comes in, and depending on quality/size the total delay of Bn-wait and Bn-Order may exceed the CC-HQ order propagation.

As far as movement on the next order goes, the possible movement in the wrong direction/out of formation may also incur delays reforming prior to the next movement - these can be significant if the original move has been started, and the next move requires a new route.

*I'm not 100% sure if the orders change 40 minutes after the order is given, or 40 minutes after the unit halts, but the incidental delays/frictions are IMO more important than this minor distinction - choose a 'good' order and don't fiddle with it trying to make it perfect, use reserves to shape the attack, broadening the direction of advance if the first attack is missing.

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RE: Command level: high or low? - 8/29/2011 5:42:13 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2216
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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I used 20 minutes as an example.I bought this on release,didnt read manuel or watch tutorials untill yesterday.No wonder I was getting nowhere in my games as I was constantly issueing orders and changing them constantly.Thanks for the advice.

(in reply to Lieste)

Post #: 11