Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Shipboard AA Performance

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Shipboard AA Performance Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Shipboard AA Performance - 10/16/2010 5:27:11 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
This post is about USN ship AA in October 1943, as it's happened in my PBM with cap_and_gown.

I've seen the posts on the shipboard AA topic and the developers' replies to the effect that everything is working correctly, people are not upgrading their ships to get more effective AA weapons, etc. I decided to wait and see for myself, and certainly to be diligent about ship upgrades.

The game is in October 1943, and there are only (AFAIK) October 1943 upgrades pending that are relevant to any AA suites or radars. The turn saw massive attacks with all the carnage that one would expect, with the glaring exception of attacking planes lost to flak.

Attacks took place in the morning and afternoon. Knowing that each plane can only attack once during each phase, I counted the planes in the morning attacks. there 361 fighters and 441 attack planes (dive bombers and torpedo bombers). Large numbers of planes were shot down in Air-to-Air combat, but you will see by the number of hits achieved on USN ships that clearly large numbers of attack planes made attack runs/dives onto their targets. For the entire day - NOT just the morning - a total of 37 planes were shot down by flak. Ops losses of attacking plane types amounted to another 14, which might be due to either flak or other causes, such as Air-to-Air daamge, fatigue, and so on.

In the afternoon, a simliar count shows that 441 fighters and 523 attack planes made strikes. So, out of 964 attack plane sorties, 37 were shot down by flak, possibly a few more as flak-caused ops losses.

While I can not see all the internals, it looks as though flak performance was at Pearl Harbor surprise levels. It does not look at all as though shopboard flak is working at a 'Realistic Capability'.

To head off spurious criticism, I am NOT looking for historical outcomes. I look for historical capabilities, and players do with it what they will.

It is my understanding that the USN was very good at shooting down attack planes during their attack runs with the weapons (and in the numbers) that the ships in this battle possesed. A secondary issue is the level of AA ammunition that ships carried. It seems to be exhausted far more quickly than realistic. Perhaps this is part of the problem? Is this already being addressed in the upcoming OOB update?

As I mentioned above, I can not see the game internals. So, I am providing a save game in the hope that the developers can look at this and identify any improvements warranted.

In this post is a screen shot of aircraft losses for the day, and the combat report (with extraneous material edited out) is pasted at the bottom of this post.

The next two posts have attached the turn replay and the save game from just before turn resolution, repsectively.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 47
A6M5 Zero x 189
A6M5b Zero x 21
A6M5c Zero x 9
B6N1 Jill x 22
B6N2 Jill x 87
D4Y1 Judy x 188
D4Y3 Judy x 12



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8
FM-1 Wildcat x 21
F6F-3 Hellcat x 388


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 7 destroyed, 21 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 19 destroyed, 9 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 3
BB South Dakota, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD Braine
CV Essex
BB Massachusetts
CV Bunker Hill
CVL Independence, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Santa Fe
DD Chevalier
DD Boyd
DD Conway
DD Converse, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Bradford
DD Claxton, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Brownson
DD Daly, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
20 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
14 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
12 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
7 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
11 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
11 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
11 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
8 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-42 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-8 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 14 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 10 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hornet
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Yorktown
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB South Dakota
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Enterprise


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 60
A6M5c Zero x 9
B6N1 Jill x 15
B6N2 Jill x 35
D4Y1 Judy x 44
D4Y3 Judy x 11



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4
FM-1 Wildcat x 14
F6F-3 Hellcat x 364


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 10 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 10 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 18 destroyed, 2 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 20 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Independence, on fire
CV Yorktown, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Converse, on fire
BB South Dakota, on fire, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
23 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
33 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 17 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 18 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
24 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 6 on standby, 18 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
32 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 14 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 10 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
24 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 10 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
20 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 11 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
29 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 18 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
34 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring an Allied CV
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hornet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 10
A6M5c Zero x 16
B6N2 Jill x 16
D4Y1 Judy x 11



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2
FM-1 Wildcat x 9
F6F-3 Hellcat x 318


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 7 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 11 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 18 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
20 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 38800.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
23 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
21 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 15 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
18 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 23 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Truk at 116,110

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 17
SBD-5 Dauntless x 36


Allied aircraft losses
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
xAKL Uga Maru, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
xAKL Hakuyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
SC CHa-23, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-12, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-13, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-17, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-20, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-24, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAKL Hakuyo Maru
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAKL Uga Maru


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 36
A6M5 Zero x 127
A6M5b Zero x 21
A6M5c Zero x 37
B6N1 Jill x 60
B6N2 Jill x 96
D4Y1 Judy x 141
D4Y3 Judy x 23



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
FM-1 Wildcat x 18
F6F-3 Hellcat x 260


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 13 destroyed, 26 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 7 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Essex, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CL Mobile
CV Pago Pago
BB Washington
BB Massachusetts, Bomb hits 1
BB Alabama, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Bache
DD Ammen
CV Bunker Hill, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Beale
DD Anthony
CVL Independence, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Abbot
DD Bennett, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Fletcher
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 2, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
20 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
19 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
9 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
9 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
11 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
12 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
9 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
14 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B6N2 Jill bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x B6N2 Jill bombing from 4000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
9 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
14 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
17 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
11 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 15 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 16 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 15 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 13 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 9 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 9 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Wasp
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lexington
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Cowpens


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 55
A6M5c Zero x 6
B6N1 Jill x 15
B6N2 Jill x 6
D4Y1 Judy x 73



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
FM-1 Wildcat x 17
F6F-3 Hellcat x 236


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 23 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
FM-1 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Alabama, on fire
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, on fire
CV Bunker Hill, on fire
CV Lexington, on fire
DD Abbot
BB Massachusetts
CL Mobile



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
14 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 2 on standby, 16 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
24 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 1 on standby, 11 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
27 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
28 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 16 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
26 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 2 on standby, 17 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
21 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 13 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 5 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 9 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 15 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
19 planes vectored on to bombers

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lexington


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 17
B6N1 Jill x 7
D4Y1 Judy x 17
D4Y3 Judy x 23



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3
FM-1 Wildcat x 10
F6F-3 Hellcat x 192


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 5 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 11 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 13 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
14 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
23 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ponape at 119,114

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 42
B6N2 Jill x 22
D4Y1 Judy x 23



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2
FM-1 Wildcat x 7
F6F-3 Hellcat x 147


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 14 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 12 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Alabama, on fire
CV Lexington, heavy fires, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
19 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
21 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
19 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 9 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-26 with F4F-4 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lexington





Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/16/2010 5:28:49 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Here is the turn replay.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/16/2010 5:29:54 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
And here is the save game pre-turn resolution.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/17/2010 2:14:45 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3374
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
AA seems low to be sure, but what about A2A in phase 1, I've seen that many losses in battles not a third that size.  That seems pretty 'unique'

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/17/2010 2:51:30 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

AA seems low to be sure, but what about A2A in phase 1, I've seen that many losses in battles not a third that size.  That seems pretty 'unique'


I'm not sure what you mean, but I would like to keep this thread on the shipboard AA. Could you copy what you are commenting on to a thread in the main forum?

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 5
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/18/2010 8:02:51 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
I feel your pain as itīs pretty much mirroring (date, aircraft, numbers, losses...) my PBEM. I doubt itīs a bug, itīs wad. And if you dare to say itīs wrong then the reply will be that you (we) do something wrong. In terms of kills, flak is by far not near what it was capable to do in real life, if you compare it to Japanese flak, youīre perhaps 20% better off with a couple of ten thousand AA value in your TFs in a hex all equiped with 5", 40mm and 20mm flak. And itīs normal (in the game) that you run out of AA ammo after one day, you probably are low on AA ammo in the afternoon phase already. Flak? Forget about it, I would stand down all flak for thunderstorms in the hex as weather is the only thing that saves you from a massacre. Instead of a massacre you only take a severe defeat.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 10/18/2010 8:03:02 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 6
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/18/2010 11:39:53 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 7576
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
Allied Shipborne AA definitely seems to be bit weak to me too. And it runs out of ammunition way too early. Usually AAA seems to be out of ammo already after AM attack phase.

Even late 1943 AAA is not having capabilities it had, even when considering that in AE proximity fuze for 5" is arriving in 1944 (IIRC), not late 1943 like in WitP.

Still, in 1943, your Allied ships are full of potent 40mm flak supported by scores of 20mm. And 5" AA is nothing so dismiss even without prozimity fuze, heavy Allied ships should be able to shoot down lot of attackers by flak, just like they were capable historically. Unfortunately, enemy attacks against my Allied TFs have resulted quite low AA losses to enemy, considering number of attacking planes.

I don't know if the issue is with game calculations or because AAA weapons seem to run out of ammunition so quickly.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 7
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/18/2010 9:37:56 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3374
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
I too think there is something 'odd' here.  Take the first round of air attack Empire to Allies. Tell me I am not over the left field fence on this one.  before I begin, let me first state that the A2A engine is considerably better than stock WITP.

There were 575 attacking aircraft including 266 escorts and 309 attack types. The CAP was 417 planes. This would qualify as one of the ten largest A2A battles of all time if measured against history.  There were 151 more CAP planes than escorts. Only 31 total attacking planes were destroyed in the entire attack including AA.  (Curiosity 1). These losses seem very low compared to the number of plane combatants AND the number of enemy ships - and those ships AA factors.  Add the fact that the attack was spotted 41 minutes out.  (assuming this is not just a message but a true indicator of the time available to mount air and ship defenses)  Why were A2A losses so low; why did 141 planes get through unmolested; Why didnt some or all of the 168 aborted attack planes not get molested by CAP? 

How could 151 unmatched CAP not mingle with the attack and wreak havoc.  I think many would agree that it is far too easy to escort attack aircraft in this game relative to history.  In a situation where warning was 41 minutes AND 151 more CAP than escorts were available, it would be a certainty that some of those CAP would bypass escorts, and others would break through escorts.  But keep in mind there was basically no CAP to Escort combat as far as I can tell, or so abbreviated that it was functionally meaningless.

What about AA losses?  (Curiosity 2).  The results do not say if the losses to the attack planes were from AA or A2A.  I read this result as solely AA losses.  61 attack planes were either destroyed or damaged.  This is 43% of nominal attacking planes.  Given the light A2A combat, I must assume that the losses were solely AA related.  Mind you, this is a big assumption.  If validated, I would say AA is working OK given the type of attack.  To restate, I cannot determine.

30 hits were scored or 21% hit rate (curiosity 3). How could there be this hit rate given the overall physics of the attack. 21% is the immaculate conception of attacks, no matter the pilots, in this situation where ships going about 30 knots with a huge harassing CAP and AA.  while possible in smaller attacks, there are no examples I know of in large scale attacks.

Finally, lets assume that the 21% hit rate is achieved, just what are the CAP and escorts doing all this time...an hour or so for an attack of this size to be executed, and why didnt the CAP go after attack planes after their runs.  there were a minimum of 141 extra fighters to do this with?  Hmmm

-----------------

In any event, large scale combat tends to reveal anomalies.  I wont go so far as to call them issues, but I will be the first to state I have seen such combats in my own little world war, and they struggle to pass my smell test.  I also would be the first to say that a small scale attack of a few planes in bad weather would have a much better chance to get through CAP unmolested than a large attack.  In this case, a perfect CAP-storm was essentially bypassed.  Also, depending on how the losses actually occurred, there could be an AA concern.

Has anyone else looked at this?  have I missed something?


_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 8
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/18/2010 10:08:15 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I too think there is something 'odd' here.  Take the first round of air attack Empire to Allies. Tell me I am not over the left field fence on this one.  before I begin, let me first state that the A2A engine is considerably better than stock WITP.

There were 575 attacking aircraft including 266 escorts and 309 attack types. The CAP was 417 planes. This would qualify as one of the ten largest A2A battles of all time if measured against history.  There were 151 more CAP planes than escorts. Only 31 total attacking planes were destroyed in the entire attack including AA.  (Curiosity 1). These losses seem very low compared to the number of plane combatants AND the number of enemy ships - and those ships AA factors.  Add the fact that the attack was spotted 41 minutes out.  (assuming this is not just a message but a true indicator of the time available to mount air and ship defenses)  Why were A2A losses so low; why did 141 planes get through unmolested; Why didnt some or all of the 168 aborted attack planes not get molested by CAP? 

How could 151 unmatched CAP not mingle with the attack and wreak havoc.  I think many would agree that it is far too easy to escort attack aircraft in this game relative to history.  In a situation where warning was 41 minutes AND 151 more CAP than escorts were available, it would be a certainty that some of those CAP would bypass escorts, and others would break through escorts.  But keep in mind there was basically no CAP to Escort combat as far as I can tell, or so abbreviated that it was functionally meaningless.

What about AA losses?  (Curiosity 2).  The results do not say if the losses to the attack planes were from AA or A2A.  I read this result as solely AA losses.  61 attack planes were either destroyed or damaged.  This is 43% of nominal attacking planes.  Given the light A2A combat, I must assume that the losses were solely AA related.  Mind you, this is a big assumption.  If validated, I would say AA is working OK given the type of attack.  To restate, I cannot determine.
quote:



In the last paragraph I am uncertain which air attack you are referring to. At any rate, the the aircraft losses screen in the Intel report showed only 37 attack types shot down by AA for the entire day (see screen capture in first post), in case that is any help.


30 hits were scored or 21% hit rate (curiosity 3). How could there be this hit rate given the overall physics of the attack. 21% is the immaculate conception of attacks, no matter the pilots, in this situation where ships going about 30 knots with a huge harassing CAP and AA.  while possible in smaller attacks, there are no examples I know of in large scale attacks.

Finally, lets assume that the 21% hit rate is achieved, just what are the CAP and escorts doing all this time...an hour or so for an attack of this size to be executed, and why didnt the CAP go after attack planes after their runs.  there were a minimum of 141 extra fighters to do this with?  Hmmm

-----------------

In any event, large scale combat tends to reveal anomalies.  I wont go so far as to call them issues, but I will be the first to state I have seen such combats in my own little world war, and they struggle to pass my smell test.  I also would be the first to say that a small scale attack of a few planes in bad weather would have a much better chance to get through CAP unmolested than a large attack.  In this case, a perfect CAP-storm was essentially bypassed.  Also, depending on how the losses actually occurred, there could be an AA concern.

Has anyone else looked at this?  have I missed something?



It just occurred to me that you should be able to download and run the combat replay if you wish to. Without the proper password it just won't generate reports, but you have the relevant report sections in the first post anyway.

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 9
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/19/2010 1:23:52 AM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
One thing I noted while watching the replay was that it "appears" as if there were more "damaged by flak" messages during combat than what were reported as damaged planes in the combat report. I expect that this is in part due to FOW as well as repeated hits on the same planes (as well as a less than complete tally on my part of the actual number of hits during the replay).

As others have mentioned there are a lot of factors that come to mind that would affect AA effectiveness including friendly cap in the area, weather, direction of the attack and the shear number of planes making the attack (as well as those participating in the CAP). As much lead as your boys were putting up into the air I half expected to see the North Carolina take another 5" round as it did in RL.

Without drawing any conclusions as to whether or not more hits or more damage to planes are thought to be missing in this particular case I will say that the number of flak "hits" (both kills and damage) does appear to be noticeably increased from what I saw of a similar battle during my PBEM in mid-42 (Although the lethality of AA hits to aircraft seems to be about the same as what I have observed thus far during 1942).

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 10
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/19/2010 2:36:04 AM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I doubt itīs a bug, itīs wad. And if you dare to say itīs wrong then the reply will be that you (we) do something wrong.

Nice attitude there CT. I was talking with witpqs and looking into some things on this, but I guess I will have to stop. Gosh forbid that I annoy you by making you lose your favorite rant.

_____________________________


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 11
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/19/2010 7:43:31 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I doubt itīs a bug, itīs wad. And if you dare to say itīs wrong then the reply will be that you (we) do something wrong.

Nice attitude there CT. I was talking with witpqs and looking into some things on this, but I guess I will have to stop. Gosh forbid that I annoy you by making you lose your favorite rant.



nothing to do with attitude, itīs exactly what I (and others) have been told. It is wad and like witpqs already pointed out in his op, the first thing you get to hear is "you havenīt done your upgrades" "you havenīt done this" "you havenīt done that". Happened how often? All the time when something is brought up, over time, more and more people bring up the same issues and thatīs the funny thing about it.

Weīre not a month after release and battles like the above one have been posted in the dozen already (and happened hundreds of times I guess) and people who are on the board regularly probably canīt say "heck, what an exception of a result". Attidude aside, I have no problem to say that Allied ship and land based flak is pathetic in the game and is not showing the effect it showed in real life. No matter if you like it or not. I could provide you with saves, screens and combat reports with having 280 3.7 inch flak guns at a base (with all being in perfect condition) and they manage to down 3-5 (out of 130) bombers at 10000ft. Having as many heavy calibre flak guns like Berlin, shooting at IJAAF medium bombers at 10000ft instead of 8th USAAF B-17 at 20000ft without doing anything to even get the opponent to at least fly higher is odd, but thatīs how it is. And I accept it. What I donīt accept is saying itīs correct or coming up with "attitude" arguments if someone says itīs wrong. You should not be so thin skinned, as we know, you are not the most political correct poster on the forum when it comes down to replying ppl. I do have to admit though that other people have reported that putting 200 heavy flak guns into a base resulted in massacres to enemy bombers at 20000ft, how this matches my PBEM with more flak and the bombers at 10000ft is something I canīt figure out. I havenīt seen screens I can only take people by what they say.

You can also probably not insist on the correctness of Allied (or IJN) TFs running out of AA ammo in a turn. Doing this without coming anywhere near the effect of real life (at least not the Allied). Also this is accepted, it is how it is. But itīs surely not correct. If you take the numbers of enemy ac, weīre not that far off of what real life TFs were attacked over a whole day, canīt remember reading that the major TFs were out of ammo the next day. If you donīt know it, there was this old trick in WITP to use one Chutai of bombers with hundreds of fighters on escort. If you got them all to fly and you were able to wear down the Cap and this single Chutai got through then 9!! bomber were able to draw so much AA fire that the TFs were down to 50% and less AA ammo. Correct? To each his own. And kind of something like this seems to be true in AE too.

I had more or less exactly the same carrier engagement at more or less the same date like witpqs, with the same number of fighters in the air. I didnīt suffer the same massacre, though taking some hits. I was saved by more bombers being shot down by fighters and by the poor weather. Flak was nothing but gimmick during the replay and my TFs were low on AA ammo the turn after.

And btw, the flak surely isnīt my favourite rant. FYI, this would be the never ending dive then.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 10/19/2010 7:46:44 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 12
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/19/2010 11:12:30 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 7576
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
If I ask nicely, would JWE and others please check if there is problem(s)?  There was some discussion about this when the issue was "pre-CAP flak". I think common concensus is that Allied flak is bit too ineffective right now.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 13
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 7:05:06 PM   
cap_and_gown


Posts: 2742
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
I am going to use this thread to post the replays for the two days of battles covered by this bug report. I am doing this so people following my AAR will have a chance to actually see the battles as they unfolded. The first day of this battle is attached above, but I am going to reattach it here as a convenient place for people to find it and then link to this post from my AAR.


Attachment (1)

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 14
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 7:08:40 PM   
cap_and_gown


Posts: 2742
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
Second day of the battle


Attachment (1)

(in reply to cap_and_gown)
Post #: 15
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 8:13:19 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
To head off spurious criticism, I am NOT looking for historical outcomes. I look for historical capabilities, and players do with it what they will.

If you want historical capabilities, how about ensuring a historical setup?

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 8:15:00 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

If I ask nicely, would JWE and others please check if there is problem(s)?  There was some discussion about this when the issue was "pre-CAP flak". I think common concensus is that Allied flak is bit too ineffective right now.

Common consensus of whom?

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 17
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 8:28:35 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
To head off spurious criticism, I am NOT looking for historical outcomes. I look for historical capabilities, and players do with it what they will.

If you want historical capabilities, how about ensuring a historical setup?


You fail to understand. Capabilities. Not results.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 18
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 9:12:10 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
You fail to understand. Capabilities. Not results.

I'm afraid it is you who fail to understand. You have failed to manage your war effort in a way that produces historical сorrelation of capabilities, including possible size of Japanese strikes (extremely important for AAA effectiveness), pilots quality and coordination of strikes (influenced by availability of quality air group commanders).

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 19
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 9:26:37 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Nope.

And BTW, there is only so much that pilot skill can do when in the attack phase against ship AA.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 20
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 9:48:14 PM   
aprezto


Posts: 822
Joined: 1/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Nope.

And BTW, there is only so much that pilot skill can do when in the attack phase against ship AA.


Have to agree. While I can buy a small amount of increased survivability by training better attack angles and such. There is just no way a pilot defence ability should be able to allow them to dodge a supersonic, invisible flak round.
My reading of what the defence attribute is trying to emulate is a pilot's ability to dodge attacking fighters; they are visible and their trajectory is able to be extrapolated - hence you could 'dodge' them or fight them off with defensive armaments.
This argument has no grounds against an incoming AAA round. You are in the realms of luck.
By requirement, an attacking divebomber, and even more: torpedo bomber, must fly a predictable track in order to hit their target. A higher trained bomber pilot is actually likely to do this 'better'. More predictable = easy to hit.

_____________________________



Image courtesy of Divepac

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 21
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/20/2010 11:40:35 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
One aspect of these discussions that would seem to be of critical importance yet rarely mentioned and often overlooked, is the experience of the crew on the ships.

I would have expected that it is a fairly important factor on how effectively AA is used. A green crew on a well armed ship would be more dangerous to themselves than the enemy.

As I expected, it does.

I created a relatively nondescript USN task force with a battleship, 2 CLAA and 4 Fletcher DDs and stuck it near a Japanese base in the Buccaneer Scenario (late 1943).




The IJN airgroups nearby were set to naval attack with 20% searching. The only edited difference between the first two tests and the last two is that the USN TF ship experience were all increased from 25 to 90.

Granted, the only way I am currently aware of to increase ship experience is to sail around and/or get shot at but it does seem to be an important aspect of this thread topic IMHO. In all likelihood, the leader ratings also play a role. If time allows I may double or triple up the number of ships in the TF to see how effectively that would increase the number of kills and damaged aircraft.

Also note that the higher crew experience did not decrease AA accuracy in bad weather.




Experience 25 Test Run 1

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
G3M3 Nell x 10



No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Indiana



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
B5N2 Kate x 13



Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 9, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Indiana


Experience 25 Test Run 2

quote:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 18, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 18
G3M3 Nell x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 15



No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 6, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb



Experience 90 Test Run 1


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
G3M3 Nell x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
B5N2 Kate x 13



Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 6



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


Experience 90 Test Run 2


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
G3M3 Nell x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
B5N2 Kate x 15



Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 12 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 3



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb



Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 22
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 12:19:47 AM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
Here are the results from tripling the number of ships and reducing all of the ship experience levels to 75 (a little more reasonable I think)





quote:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 18, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
G3M3 Nell x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 8 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Massachusetts
BB Alabama



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
B5N2 Kate x 13



Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Alabama, Bomb hits 3
BB Massachusetts, Bomb hits 1
CLAA Oakland



Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 8



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Great Nicobar at 43,67

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 18
B5N2 Kate x 7



Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana
BB Alabama



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 23
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 2:26:46 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Von Tirpitz,

What was the pilot skill set in these tests?

(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 24
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 2:47:30 AM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
All of the air assets are as Andy has them in his Buccaneer Scenario. I think I have v3 loaded but it might still be v2. The only thing I did was dock the IJN TF into port so it wouldn't get involved in the testing. So for all practical purposes the only "known" variables I played with for each test was the number and experience of the USN ships. The weather varied from test to test but that was expected.

I think there is also value in the results knowing that all of the raids bombed from the same altitudes. Hope it helps.



quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Von Tirpitz,

What was the pilot skill set in these tests?





Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 25
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 7:30:18 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
You fail to understand. Capabilities. Not results.

I'm afraid it is you who fail to understand. You have failed to manage your war effort in a way that produces historical ņorrelation of capabilities, including possible size of Japanese strikes (extremely important for AAA effectiveness), pilots quality and coordination of strikes (influenced by availability of quality air group commanders).



have you ever read a book about the war? WWII, not WWI. And have you ever read about how the percentage was of aircraft shot down by flak? Obviously not.

_____________________________


(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 26
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 7:43:21 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
good to see that AA gets better with increased exp, problem is you canīt train ships so if you donīt get attacked they donīt train. Yeah, they train until somewhere around 50, but thatīs obviously not enough to make Allied capitol ships bristling with flak a flak platform they should be. Noone says they should be killers in 42 but the major TFs that are sailing around in late 43-44 should have a decent flak as this is what they had in real life. Heck, ppl are even using BIGGER TFs with more flak than it would have been done in real life and still canīt take down 50% of real life kills with flak.

_____________________________


(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 27
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 11:03:45 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
have you ever read a book about the war? WWII, not WWI. And have you ever read about how the percentage was of aircraft shot down by flak? Obviously not.

Can you put your money where your whining mouth is and kindly enlighten us about the percentage of Japanese aircraft lost to flak during the two combat events that can serve as the only RL points of comparison for large carrier battles late in the war:
1)Counterattack against Task Group 50.3 on 11 November 1943.
2)Marianas Turkey Shoot.

Sources of information that do not use Japanese sources to verify claims do not count, of course.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 28
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 3:46:34 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
have you ever read a book about the war? WWII, not WWI. And have you ever read about how the percentage was of aircraft shot down by flak? Obviously not.

Can you put your money where your whining mouth is and kindly enlighten us about the percentage of Japanese aircraft lost to flak during the two combat events that can serve as the only RL points of comparison for large carrier battles late in the war:
1)Counterattack against Task Group 50.3 on 11 November 1943.
2)Marianas Turkey Shoot.





Sources of information that do not use Japanese sources to verify claims do not count, of course.




going from memory, the Hellcat pilots claimed more aircraft shot down in the Marianaīs than the Japanese even had and flak accounted for around 40 in total. 40 would be around 10% of what was launched against the Allied but 40 sure is a high percentage of what REACHED the Allied ships (after being taken on by the Hellcats) and this is what is the difference to the game. What reaches the ships usually doesnīt have to fear the flak.

lol, no need to tell you anything after this comment! Show me one instance that shows two sides coming up with the same claims. Side a: we shot down 50 aircraft, side b: we lost 50 aircraft. Have you lost any seriousness?

Ahh, forget what I said in any thread/post to you, senseless anyway. You obviously think that losses to flak in WWII were only 5% of total losses as this is what usually comes up in the game. In games that have gotten further than laughable May 42 as you tend to quote your game that has gone oh so very far. Boy, donīt get me started, I rather keep my mouth just closed.

For the record: flak is realistic and itīs working very well. geeekk


< Message edited by castor troy -- 10/21/2010 4:23:42 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 29
RE: Shipboard AA Performance - 10/21/2010 4:32:59 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
So, you do not, in fact, know, what the losses from flak in such situation should be historically. You don't even want to know and explicitly dismiss all the serious research on the air aspect of the Pacific War ever. That's all anyone needs to know about the credibility of your position.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Shipboard AA Performance Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.742