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RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/2/2010 10:46:51 PM   
Mad Russian


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The squad that was originally suppressed is now rushing to catch back up with the other squads of the platoon.

In this one platoon we have the platoon leader halted because he is tired and I didn't want to exhaust him, one squad pinned and one squad rushing to catch up.

That doesn't sound like the infantry combat model is broken to me.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 31
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/2/2010 11:25:53 PM   
lancer

 

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G'day,

Great AAR! Infantry game looking good.

quote:

I have not played this scenario out so I'm not sure how the AI will respond. Since that's the case we are taking it easy in our advance. I'd really not want to have you all watch me get a Legendary Defeat in an AAR!


If you replayed the scenario and used an identical approach would the AI react the same way or is there a measure of variability built in?

Conversely if I made up my own scenario what tools do I have at my disposal with regards to the AI?

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 32
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 12:29:39 AM   
gijas17


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The crosshair really adds to the game as with just a red line it was hard to position right on the target at times especially distant targets.

_____________________________

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Post #: 33
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 12:55:50 AM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

Conversely if I made up my own scenario what tools do I have at my disposal with regards to the AI?

Cheers,
Lancer


I think the main tools are setting the objective locations, the force structure (including art), and scenario length and bonus, but there may be others -- Mobius has done quite a few of the existing scenarios, so he might have some other ideas.

Rick



(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 34
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 1:24:02 AM   
Mad Russian


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Here is the scenario editing screen.

Starting from the top down you have can load a pre-existing scenario or you can make a new one and name it.

The glasses button to the right of the scenario name is for your briefing.

Put a map into the scenario. When you add a map it will show up to the right of the scenario build area.

Give it a date.

If one side or the other is to get a bonus then who is it, how much is it, and when does it start?

Are the objectives neutral, German or Russian controlled and how much is each worth?

How many points does each side get to spend in the available units buy box when the scenario is chosen to be played?

Then you have the nationality armour selection menus. These drop down menu's allow you to pick any vehicle in the game and add it to that sides OOB.

The nationality infantry selection menu's allow the same for infantry type units.

Once you've selected a unit you can give it an ammunition percentage of combat load.

F = allows you to fix the units location during setup.
C - allows this unit to be selected as a core unit in a campaign.
K - allows this to be selected as a key platoon in a campaign.

You can give your units specific names. These can be only unit names such as 1/1/10th PGR, or commanders names such as Sgt Steiner, or both such as Sgt Steiner 1/1/10th PGR.

Give the unit an experience level. Elite-Veteran-Green. Set the trigger for the turn it comes in the game. Set the percentage of it's arriving on the trigger turn.

Set the number or elements in the unit. Select the P with the check and then place them on the map. When they are placed you can rotate them to any direction you like. All placement is by platoon or each element of the unit specific.

You can then look at what you've made and move them up or down in the selection list. Which is important if the AI is buying units. It buys from the top down. You can also review your unit entry log.

Set minefields and give it file name.

Then you can save it and you have a scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 35
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 1:59:46 AM   
Mad Russian


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FINALLY! I get a positive ID on an enemy unit.

Those I can kill. Much better results against known enemy units than area firing at the side of building against them. In real life the fire would mostly be against the side of the building with little effect to those inside until grenades were brought into play. Often a single grenade would clear a house when a platoon of rifle fire wouldn't.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 36
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:02:06 AM   
Mad Russian


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Here is the company fire and maneuver plan. The plan is to take two platoons around the end of the low ground and come up behind the Russians in the buildings while the other platoon with the SLt, the 2 HMG's and the mortar pin the Russians down.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 2:04:25 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 37
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:05:48 AM   
Mad Russian


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Run Forrest, RUN!!!

Across the road we go! The whole time keeping that gun suppressed.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 2:07:03 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 38
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:29:22 AM   
Mad Russian


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Here is the platoon fire and maneuver plan. With orders given to rush across the road.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 39
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:30:28 AM   
Mad Russian


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The first platoon gets across with no problem.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 40
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:31:57 AM   
Mad Russian


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Some games stop at the end of each phase. PCO doesn't.

Here is a SS of the end of a phase with tracers frozen in place until the next movie segment to finish up the action. Tracers are orange, at the bottom near the top of tree and just to the right of the log house.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 2:34:12 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 41
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:35:24 AM   
Mad Russian


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Then the second platoon makes it over.

Good Hunting.

MR




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_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 42
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:40:35 AM   
Mad Russian


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The LT is pushing everybody hard. Now that contact has been made he wants his troops to get in close proximity to them to do as much damage as possible.

Even the LT is tired.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 43
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:45:31 AM   
Mad Russian


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Now I'm catching fire from the three buildings on the right.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 44
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:48:35 AM   
Mad Russian


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Hammer and anvil! The anvil are the red fire lines going out to suppress the Russian units. The hammer are the maneuver units that are to close and destroy those suppressed units.

I've taken this time to move my support weapons closer. The two HMG's and the mortar are all moving forward.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 2:50:02 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 45
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 2:57:21 AM   
Mad Russian


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MEDIC! Man down!

We've taken our first losses. Probably not the last before the day is over. The yellow bag with the red cross in it in our unit specification box shows we've taken 1/3 casualties. If that turns red you've taken 2/3 casualties and if you get a red skull to display you've managed to make everyone in that unit a casualty. Lucky you.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 3:00:43 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 46
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 4:16:46 AM   
lancer

 

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G'day,

Thanks for the info on Scenario Design but I'm still in the dark regarding the AI.

From what you've said I can determine the force structure, the objectives and the turn length.

So can I assume that the games inbuilt strategic AI then formulates a plan of attack based on these without any input from the scenario designer?

Or is it the case that I can - as designer - specify that the AI splits it force into two, for example, sending one group this way and the other over there?

Either way (given the two possible approaches above) is there any scope for the AI doing things differently during replays of the same mission (given that the player acts the same)?

To be more specific, in the AAR that Eric R. did recently (stickied above) the Russians had a large group of BTR-10 (?) tanks turn up on a particular road (eastern?) on a particular turn (say turn 4). Additionally there was a russian artillery barrage hitting the field full of german tanks.

If Eric redid the mission would the Russian tanks always turn up on the same road on the same turn? Likewise would the Russian artillery always target the same area and commence their barrage on the exact same turn?

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 47
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 4:37:53 AM   
Mad Russian


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No, you cannot scrip the AI. It uses normal response to flag placement reaction. Like most AI's. The next game in the series will have more options for scenario designers to be more creative with the AI responses.

Having said that there are things that can be done, the percent of probability for reinforcements can vastly change the way a scenario plays. Placing flags where they can trigger an AI response, I'd like to see triggers included in the next game of the series where they are invisible to the players but act like flags to the AI, with some practice.

If the SOP is being used then different results vs the enemy will of course get the AI to act differently. I would say that the way the AI acts is very much determinant on the skill of the scenario designer.

I've not played that scenario that you guys did so I can't tell you if it would play the same two times in a row or not. I know I try to set mine where they don't. That pretty much comes down to the scenario being playtested to know what it will do and what can be done to make it "act" differently on occasion.


Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 4:45:10 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 48
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 6:35:10 AM   
lancer

 

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G'day,

O.K, thanks for the fast response and I'm enjoying your AAR.

I don't want to labour the point but I'm still not clear on what can be done with the AI.

Figured out that...

1.AI can't be scripted. Triggers aren't implemented.
2.AI logic controlled by the game engine and is largely geared around objective flag placements.
3.Reinforcements can be given a variable turn entry parameter, eg. might arrive on turn 3 and next game it might be turn 5.
4.There is the ability to randomly place defending forces on the map at the start. Eg. the designer specifies a whole bunch of possible placement points and the game allocates the forces to a random selection of those placement points.

So my questions would be;

1: Have I assumed correctly with my four points above?

quote:

I've not played that scenario that you guys did so I can't tell you if it would play the same two times in a row or not. I know I try to set mine where they don't. That pretty much comes down to the scenario being playtested to know what it will do and what can be done to make it "act" differently on occasion.


2: How exactly can you get the AI to "act differently on occassion"?

3: And finally artillery. If - in the example I mentioned a post or two back - the AI barrage arrives targeted at a particular spot on the map on, say, turn 4 will this always be the case? Eg. Same spot and same turn every time you play the mission?

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 49
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 6:53:19 AM   
Mad Russian


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1) Yes, there are triggers. The flags are the triggers.
2) True.
3) True.
4) Not for the AI forces. Those are set specifically by the scenario designer.


I went looking, I thought I'd written an article for how to make the AI respond to what the designer wants for CM. I couldn't find what I was looking for so I'll have to write one for PC. AFTER we get the update out.

The AI responds to you. Your comment was if everything was done the same would the AI respond the same. If everything was the same yes. But then how is it going to be? How are you going to move in exactly the same spots, get exactly the same combat results, have exactly the same LOS you had the last time. With all those variables the AI is going to respond differently. Would it respond exactly the same? Probably but you're never going to get it exactly the same no matter how many times you play the same scenario.

Second set of questions.

1) For the most part you got them right. Except where I corrected your statements.
2) There are lots of ways to do this. I'll write up an article after we release the update. Don't have time to do that at the moment.
3) Artillery is LOS activated. It won't ever have LOS exactly the same any two times so it will trigger differently each time.

Setting the AI to fight is mostly just common sense. Learn how the AI responds to triggers and then sent those triggers where you want them. Once you've got them set then PLAYTEST the scenario to see how they respond. If they do what you want you're good. If they don't change them and PLAYTEST it again. Rinse and repeat until you get the results you're looking for. It's a simple process but can be time consuming when you're first learning where to place things.

How do the triggers work in Distant Worlds?


Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 7:17:16 AM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 50
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 11:20:49 AM   
RockinHarry


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I do not want to interfer with this AAR (while enjoying it ) and it´s probably a topic for a different thread, but I have a little bit of trouble identifying the forested areas. It all looks like lightly forested ground, but probably it´s a mix of dense, light and open terrain with single trees, right?

I understand you can not place the mass of tree objects, required to present the various areas properly and 6000 tree objects alone surely is demanding lots of computer resources.

I think it would help, by adding a way darker and shadowy ground texture at those places which presents densely forested ground. Also adding more trees at the edges of dense forest patches and less in the interior would help to get a better grasp of the map structure, without going overboard with tree object count.

With regard to LOD, at far view one could implement a single patch "forest object", roughly covering the densely forested area. This would be similar to what is used in SSI´s Panzer Commander tank sim and some other games.

At close up view, one can replace single trees with larger billboards, covering a wider area of dense trees in the interior at the given LOS limit, which might be between 30 to 50m.

Is things like that implemented in PCO, or planned for PC4?

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RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 12:32:08 PM   
lancer

 

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G'day,

Fair enough.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Cheers,
Lancer

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Post #: 52
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 1:26:21 PM   
junk2drive


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RH, ground type effects movement, tree models effect LOS. The insert hotkey removes the pretty ground graphics and shows you the terrain types by colour. The rubberband shows the name of the terrain.
The person making the map can pick any graphic choice for each terrain type. So you could have different colour/texture graphics for light woods and woods and forests if the designer chose to make it that way.

Does that make sense?

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 53
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:13:08 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I do not want to interfer with this AAR (while enjoying it ) and it´s probably a topic for a different thread, but I have a little bit of trouble identifying the forested areas. It all looks like lightly forested ground, but probably it´s a mix of dense, light and open terrain with single trees, right?

I understand you can not place the mass of tree objects, required to present the various areas properly and 6000 tree objects alone surely is demanding lots of computer resources.

I think it would help, by adding a way darker and shadowy ground texture at those places which presents densely forested ground. Also adding more trees at the edges of dense forest patches and less in the interior would help to get a better grasp of the map structure, without going overboard with tree object count.

With regard to LOD, at far view one could implement a single patch "forest object", roughly covering the densely forested area. This would be similar to what is used in SSI´s Panzer Commander tank sim and some other games.

At close up view, one can replace single trees with larger billboards, covering a wider area of dense trees in the interior at the given LOS limit, which might be between 30 to 50m.

Is things like that implemented in PCO, or planned for PC4?


The TAC map in the bottom right corner of the game screen is some indication of the different textures you may find on the map.

As the designer I can do whatever I want with a PC map in regards to coloration and texturing. I even went so far as to change the lighting on this map to orange to match the dawn sky I have chosen.

Here is a SS of the TAC map.

Good Hunting.

MR





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 54
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:16:21 PM   
Mad Russian


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Here is a SS of the textures from a distance. When in the game and I take closeup SS' all you see are the textures the units are placed on. Getting a view from further out allows you to see the texturing of the map better. And during game play it's easy to toggle the terrain off to look at the texture under it.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 55
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:17:05 PM   
Mad Russian


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All you need is some height to better see the textures.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 56
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:18:11 PM   
Mad Russian


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All over the map are different texutures as you had figured out.

Good Hunting.

MR






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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 3:22:57 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 57
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:19:32 PM   
Mad Russian


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I try to soften them where they blend in and are as natural looking as possible. But some terrain features are greatly different from those around them.

Good Hunting.

MR






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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/3/2010 3:23:44 PM >


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 58
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:25:00 PM   
Mad Russian


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From: Texas
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I even made this dirt road with the tire tracks. Those are completely my making and I can color and texture those any way I like. Even the width of the terrain feature is totally in my control as the designer.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 59
RE: AAR HSG Urrah - 10/3/2010 3:34:44 PM   
Mad Russian


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From: Texas
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Here is a close up of the road and surrounding textures.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 60
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