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Night battle: not just a special effect

 
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Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:36:58 PM   
xe5

 

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Ive never seen any info on the game effect, if any, of darkness in night battles. So I decided to test. My test bed was a modified Dinther map, all dirt terrain, all 1 meter elevation, with the 24 meter deployment grid superimposed to assist in measurements. The test scenarios were day and night battles, both with the Germans dug-in. My "spotter" was an AB sniper. My "spotees" were all in newly dug trenches.




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< Message edited by xe5 -- 8/8/2010 10:37:37 PM >
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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:38:56 PM   
xe5

 

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German setup night





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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:44:08 PM   
xe5

 

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The first difference I noticed between day and night was the hindrance range - the point where LOS/LOF changes from bright to dark green to indicate some degree of blockage. The range was 84 m. at night and 224 m. during the day.

The second thing I noticed was that the closest German 'new' trench, 120 meters from the spotter, was immediately seen during the day but not at night.




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:46:59 PM   
xe5

 

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However, pop illumination, and the nearest 'new' trench gets spotted....




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:49:56 PM   
7A_Woulf

 

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Another thanks for testing things out. I've noticed differences, night battles fells a bit more intense with more SAD, less 'pure' battling, but not been able to pinpoint them for argumentation.

Cheers

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:54:10 PM   
xe5

 

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The effect of the circle of illumination is to extend the hindrance range




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:54:44 PM   
Andrew Williams


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Night reduces LOS

Light up with flares or mortars and you gain LOS into the circle of light.

Search through the forums since LSA release and you will see many posts explaining same

very nice demonstration though.


:)


< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 8/8/2010 10:55:43 PM >

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 10:55:25 PM   
xe5

 

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Inside the illum circle, the hindrance range from the prone is as good as during the day




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 11:01:57 PM   
xe5

 

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A 4 man team moving toward the spotter was first seen at 160 meters at night (and oddly, the 'new' trench they moved from was seen at the same time)




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 11:03:21 PM   
xe5

 

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...while during the day, a 4 man team moving toward the spotter was first seen at 330 meters distant




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 11:06:26 PM   
Andrew Williams


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It's my personal feeling that the LOS is still too great at night , given the limited size of CC maps.

Should also try testing move vs move fast vs sneak @ day/night  (only in your spare time though)

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 11:20:51 PM   
xe5

 

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Lastly, hindrance range standing, night vs day

@ shrecken - I searched on "night" and found nada on the Matrix CC forums (COI, WAR, TLD, LSA). Am sure move fast would be spotted more easily at night, as it is during the day, than sneaking. Agree spotting range at night is longish. Must always be a clear night with a full moon.




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/8/2010 11:39:13 PM   
Andrew Williams


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yeh, the "Search" function is useless but that same question has been asked over and over... is it real or just a darkening effect.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 12:05:53 AM   
DasHoff


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yeah, i think the LOS at night is a little too great as well.

also, i've always hated how easily trenches can be spotted. i mean its a hole in the ground; you shouldnt be able to see it at all, until you get at least somewhat close to it, or until the guys in it pop up and start firing. yet during the day as soon as ur guys have LOS on it, even 100s of meters away, often it appears. it really ruins any ambush you may attempt, especially since as soon as your opponent spots it he will start blind firing on it, which somehow manages to kill the guys huddled down at the bottom of the trench


< Message edited by DasHoff -- 8/9/2010 12:07:12 AM >

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 12:57:20 AM   
Platoon_Michael


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The lack of any change in the .OVM's severely hurts the full effect of night battles.
Also when you play winter maps with snow camo the vehicles and sprites are going to have an enormous contrast.

This effect wasn't worth the effort or properly thought out inmho.

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 8/9/2010 12:58:21 AM >

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 1:19:52 AM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

his effect wasn't worth the effort or properly thought out inmho.


i disagree, the night component works well in my opinion... just LOS needs reducing a little, again my personal opinion.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 1:47:08 AM   
Tejszd

 

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The ovm, zoomed out, only shows what your units can or can not see on the regular view so I do not understand what .ovm issue/problem you see?

I do agree with you that the winterized variable should have an impact (it hasn't been used since CC3 where not being winterized vehicles to not be movable). In WAR it could be used for the same affect and to make troops harder to see since it could indicate they are wearing white camouflage....

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 2:40:23 AM   
Platoon_Michael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

The ovm, zoomed out, only shows what your units can or can not see on the regular view so I do not understand what .ovm issue/problem you see?

I do agree with you that the winterized variable should have an impact (it hasn't been used since CC3 where not being winterized vehicles to not be movable). In WAR it could be used for the same affect and to make troops harder to see since it could indicate they are wearing white camouflage....



This is why the patches cant ever fix the issues that need addressed.
The people working on the games don't PLAY them.
The .OVM issue I mention is when your playing a night battle on a winter map the map is dark.
When you zoom out the .ovm is white as if you weren't even playing a night battle.
hence the post about the HUGE contrast with the .OVM's.

the sprites and the vehicles I mentioned has Nothing to do with winterizing it had to do with the fact that they appear to GLOW during night battles.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 2:40:50 AM   
squadleader_id


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Some other variables that should be factored in for visibility at night...full moon nights, moonless nights and various conditions somewhere in between.
Maybe tweak the weather mechanism to achieve this.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 2:51:37 AM   
Neil N

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

It's my personal feeling that the LOS is still too great at night , given the limited size of CC maps.

Should also try testing move vs move fast vs sneak @ day/night  (only in your spare time though)



Thought you and I tested this out pretty soundly on the japanese POW camp map a couple of years ago. Or does this version of night battles work a little different than that one? For some reason, I think I remember being able to sneak teams to within about 40-50m of guard towers in the dark before being spotted. That was some fun...especially since there were actual prisoners involved.

BTW, nice demonstration of the feature.

< Message edited by Neil N -- 8/9/2010 2:52:34 AM >


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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 3:00:00 AM   
Andrew Williams


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Yeh, been tested pretty thoroughly but I'd still like to see a little more cover at night.... just a personal preference given the size of the maps.... If we were playing on the 4km x 1Km maps I'd be content.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 3:46:04 AM   
Q.M


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Some other variables that should be factored in for visibility at night...full moon nights, moonless nights and various conditions somewhere in between.
Maybe tweak the weather mechanism to achieve this.



Very good point. Full moon/cold night v no moon/fog.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 9:39:52 AM   
Andrew Williams


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The shadows always indicate a full moon and clear skies

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 12:59:36 PM   
Neil N

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael
This is why the patches cant ever fix the issues that need addressed.
The people working on the games don't PLAY them.
The .OVM issue I mention is when your playing a night battle on a winter map the map is dark.
When you zoom out the .ovm is white as if you weren't even playing a night battle.
hence the post about the HUGE contrast with the .OVM's.

the sprites and the vehicles I mentioned has Nothing to do with winterizing it had to do with the fact that they appear to GLOW during night battles.


I wouldn't say they don't play them. If I'm playing in the situation that you describe, I wouldn't even have thought to report it, because I wouldn't even have noticed it. The last thing that my mind would even register is "OMG the OVM is light and tactical map is dark...ARRGHHHH, it's unplayable!"

Guess I need to focus on the important details

< Message edited by Neil N -- 8/9/2010 1:00:02 PM >


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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/9/2010 7:50:31 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5
Lastly, hindrance range standing, night vs day


Yeah, the illumination cancels out all the night hindrance when checking LOS into a lighted area.

On the trench spot at a distance -- if a unit is in a trench and gets spotted, the trench is spotted too.

One other thing you can try, if you're curious I guess -- drop a flare on some units and test the LOS from inside the lighted area to targets outside of the lighted area. I'm sure you can think of some tactical use for this effect. :)

Steve

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/10/2010 5:18:55 AM   
Peterk1

 

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One thing I don't like about night in CC. The large number of active tanks in some battles. I'm not a total grog but I'm pretty sure the Western Allies never, ever fought with tanks at night and I'm pretty sure the Germans didn't do it very often either (yeah, yeah the attack on the Arnhem bridge is an exception but the city and bridge were probably lit up).

I don't think XXX Corps ever moved at night (that's what caused General Gavin to freak out and order the river crossing) and they almost certainly didn't fight. I would have to double-check on that though.

Any way to get the AI (and heck, humans too!...force it!) to switch out some of the tanks at night for infantry and then put the tanks back at dawn? I'm coming at this from a perspective of the Longest Day rather than the Arnhem game but the issue's the same in both.

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/10/2010 5:51:33 AM   
Andrew Williams


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Hmmm... how to model doctrine into CC??

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/10/2010 7:03:02 AM   
Q.M


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Thinking out loud.  Can you physically model in weather?  Visually I mean.  Snow, fog, rain etc?  Not constant but in waves, on and off?

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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/10/2010 5:33:01 PM   
xe5

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire
One other thing you can try, if you're curious I guess -- drop a flare on some units and test the LOS from inside the lighted area to targets outside of the lighted area. I'm sure you can think of some tactical use for this effect. :)


Ach so!




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RE: Night battle: not just a special effect - 8/10/2010 8:41:55 PM   
Andrew Williams


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Blinded by the light!

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