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RE: Addon Discussion - 9/6/2010 4:00:28 AM   
T_K

 

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I wish troop transports didn't unload troops so quickly that it doesn't matter if you have your entire fleet defending the planet.

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RE: Addon Discussion - 9/6/2010 10:09:44 AM   
Bartje

 

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With that I actually agree but on the other hand you should have had more troops there :P

I think that hostile troopships heading for planets should automatically be priority #1. Too often does a station not focus on it in time.

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Post #: 92
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/6/2010 10:17:47 AM   
WoodMan


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quote:

The star would be used for energy to matter conversion to get unlimited building material: nanites and other molecules and atoms. This is assuming the theorectical technologies. There will be advances in our near and far future that we can not even imagine.

Think more about science fiction advances and maybe possible real life future advances. You did not even seem to take note of some of the advances I mention.


True, its perfectly acceptable that some of that stuff may be available in the future   You are more optimistic than me about such things it would seem

However, in the context of DW i don't think such techs "fit" properly.  The game establishes certain rules such as ships can travel between stars quickly (faster than is scientifically possible) and that the Empires use mines to extract minerals and building materials from planets which are transported via fast moving transports to the building site and used to construct whatever object is under construction.  Energy to matter conversion would eliminate this entire part of the game changing the game significantly and making it (in my opinion) less fun.  Trade would be pointless, unlimited numbers of ships could be created quickly at shipyards near suns etc.

So, even if it is unrealistic (like the ship speeds, so unrealistic is acceptable in DW and nobody minds) the Ringworlds should probably be constructed using normal means, i.e. transporting mined materials to the building site and taking a very long time to build, or not being able to build them at all and finding them like the world destroyers.  Using energy to matter conversion or nanites for just this one construction might be more realistic considering the scale of the project, but it would be out of context with the rest of the game.


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Post #: 93
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/6/2010 8:46:50 PM   
SilverRocket

 

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While I'm in favour of both broadening and deepening the tech tree to allow for an evolving experience over (say) several hundred years of game time, I don't really see how dyson spheres / ringworlds would work in the current game.

At the moment, Distant Worlds is a model of an extractive economy... planets are valuable for the resources they have and population acts as a multiplier but there is no manufactured economy (apart from ships) or service economy. So what would be the value of ringworlds? If they don't have any resources then they are just a store of (untaxed) population. If you are saying that resources are created by some advanced technique then why not just create those resources directly?

This may be a reason to improve the game's economic model but that's another issue

Anyway, while I'm here...what I'd like to see in the expansion is a better diplomatic system (please, please, please give us buttons for greater amounts than 10,000 credits ) along the lines of what has been posted in the diplomacy thread and what I have previously posted on the wishlist. I'd also like to see some simulation of internal politics (democracies should be very different to monarchies) and perhaps some more varied story elements (I think it would be good if this were randomised - the story is good fun the first time round but gets a bit stale after a few plays).


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Post #: 94
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 4:21:37 PM   
Bingeling

 

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It is a bit since I saw this, so it may have been changed.

The snappy speed of invading is even more annoying if you got your own troop transports in the system. Reinforcing troop transport are left in docking queues, while attacking paratroop. The only likely way to "save" a planet with a single defender from a single troop transport slipping through (4 troops), is to have your 10 full troop transports in the system being ready to invade once the low strength planet is captured.

If you are able to land on the planet instantly when attacking, one should also think it would be possible to land instantly when defending, and not be left in lines at the immigration office, or whatever.

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RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 5:01:00 PM   
Bozz

 

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I always saw planete invasion as it is in the book halo reach

Troop ships sending small ships with soldiers on the planete, so this could be done quickly, once the troop transporter is near the planete he will lunch the small ships and once they enter in the atmosphere it is impossible for other ships to destroy them...

I agree that these ships should be engaged as quickly as possible,In one of my games I managed to lose 7 planetes in 5 different systemes because of a fleet traveling accros my empire and invading undefended planetes, it took me a lot of time before I finally managed to destroy the troop transport but I think that they used all of their troops


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Post #: 96
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 5:23:51 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozz

I always saw planete invasion as it is in the book halo reach

Troop ships sending small ships with soldiers on the planete, so this could be done quickly, once the troop transporter is near the planete he will lunch the small ships and once they enter in the atmosphere it is impossible for other ships to destroy them...

I agree that these ships should be engaged as quickly as possible,In one of my games I managed to lose 7 planetes in 5 different systemes because of a fleet traveling accros my empire and invading undefended planetes, it took me a lot of time before I finally managed to destroy the troop transport but I think that they used all of their troops




Of course your planetary defenses should be trying to shoot down the LCIs (for lack of a better description) and LCTs. That's what air defenses are for...say about a 25-30% kill rate by air defenses...in other words the troops should arrive with damage.

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Post #: 97
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 5:49:26 PM   
J HG T


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozz

I always saw planete invasion as it is in the book halo reach

Troop ships sending small ships with soldiers on the planete, so this could be done quickly, once the troop transporter is near the planete he will lunch the small ships and once they enter in the atmosphere it is impossible for other ships to destroy them...

I agree that these ships should be engaged as quickly as possible,In one of my games I managed to lose 7 planetes in 5 different systemes because of a fleet traveling accros my empire and invading undefended planetes, it took me a lot of time before I finally managed to destroy the troop transport but I think that they used all of their troops




Of course your planetary defenses should be trying to shoot down the LCIs (for lack of a better description) and LCTs. That's what air defenses are for...say about a 25-30% kill rate by air defenses...in other words the troops should arrive with damage.


Agreed with the fact that planetary defences should affect the land invasion in some way. The AI players are well aware how cheap and effective tactic spamming troop transports through planetary defences is. In my current game the Dhayuut used this tactic on me and I couldn't do absolutely nothing. Even if my planet has medium starport and modified defence platform the transports just throwed the troops through the defences and retreated. Super annoying.
Also if you think about in the perspective of ground forces fighting in the ground, orbital defences could easily bombard enemy troop formations if they land outside of cities and other infrastructures.

Bottom line: Orbital defences need to do something to invading troops. It feels pretty much pointless to build them sometimes if they can't do anything to troop spamming, which both player and AI know as effective tactic. Shark7s idea is good, but I say make the percentage of casulties caused depentend on the amount of platforms in the orbit and/or the combined firepower of orbital structures.

< Message edited by J HG T -- 9/9/2010 5:51:31 PM >


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Post #: 98
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 10:35:09 PM   
adecoy95


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hey look, a dyson sphere in game!

ok, its a little lopsided, but it works!




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 99
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/9/2010 11:26:20 PM   
Shark7


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Yes, but does the game crash because of it?

Try adding gas clouds, suns or systems...crash city.

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Post #: 100
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/10/2010 12:33:19 AM   
WoodMan


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I think he is just demonstrating the sort of scale, if a ringworld was in the game then that would be its scale, it would however be a single png with a transparent centre and not loads of planets stuck together 

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Post #: 101
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/10/2010 12:49:22 AM   
adecoy95


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I think he is just demonstrating the sort of scale, if a ringworld was in the game then that would be its scale, it would however be a single png with a transparent centre and not loads of planets stuck together 


well, no actually, adding a bunch of planets in a big ring gives you the same effect a dyson sphere would, use your imagination! :D

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 102
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/10/2010 2:39:05 AM   
vonboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I think he is just demonstrating the sort of scale, if a ringworld was in the game then that would be its scale, it would however be a single png with a transparent centre and not loads of planets stuck together 


well, no actually, adding a bunch of planets in a big ring gives you the same effect a dyson sphere would, use your imagination! :D

actually, thats just a ringworld. you'd have to fill the whole thing with planets for it to be more like a dyson shpere :b

(in reply to adecoy95)
Post #: 103
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/10/2010 5:57:14 PM   
Wade1000


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THE Ringworld of Larry Niven's novel has a habitable flat inner surface equivalent in area to approximately three million Earth-sized planets.

quote:

Ringworld engineering
The "Ringworld" is an artificial ring about one million miles wide and approximately the diameter of Earth's orbit (which makes it about 600 million miles in circumference), encircling a Sol-type star. It rotates, providing an artificial gravity that is 99.2% as strong as Earth's gravity through the action of centrifugal force. Ringworld has a habitable flat inner surface equivalent in area to approximately three million Earth-sized planets. The majority of the surface is land interspersed with shallow, freshwater seas. On opposite sides of the ring are two large deep saltwater oceans, placed in counterbalance to one another. One of the large oceans, known as the "Great Ocean", contains one-to-one maps of all of the inhabited worlds of known space. The "Other Ocean" has many maps of a single world: the Pak Homeworld. Walls 1,000 miles tall along the edges retain the atmosphere. The Ringworld could be regarded as a thin, rotating slice of a Dyson sphere, with which it shares a number of characteristics. Niven himself thinks of the Ringworld as "an intermediate step between Dyson spheres and planets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld

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Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

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Post #: 104
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/10/2010 7:07:08 PM   
vonboy

 

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and a solid shell dyson sphere would have a surface area equal to 550 million earths.

now THATS what i call real estate

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Post #: 105
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/11/2010 7:38:02 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonboy

and a solid shell dyson sphere would have a surface area equal to 550 million earths.

now THATS what i call real estate



and completely unrealistic...exactly where would you find the resources to build such a thing? to have the surface area of 550 million earths, you need the resources of 550 million earths to build it.

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Post #: 106
RE: Addon Discussion - 9/11/2010 7:56:49 PM   
Wade1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonboy

and a solid shell dyson sphere would have a surface area equal to 550 million earths.

now THATS what i call real estate



and completely unrealistic...exactly where would you find the resources to build such a thing? to have the surface area of 550 million earths, you need the resources of 550 million earths to build it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

Todays tall buildings and other technologies would seem silly or impossible to many people of the far past. I think technology will continue to progress exponentially into our far future to advances that we can't even imagine. We can imagine alot right now.

In 'The Culture' series novels Orbitals(huge rings that orbit stars) are the most common habitat for The Culture. Ringworlds and Sphere worlds are spread here and there. Even planets are barely populated. Planets are treated as nature preserves with scientific study or backwoods type colonies with small populations.

The Culture passes on terraforming every little ball around because forming their own Orbital and Ringworlds and Sphereworlds is possible and provides HUGE amounts of custom tailored land. Maybe much like today we can choose to build upwards instead of spreading across flat land taking up all nature and agriculture.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

One has to wonder though...can you actually grow enough food on a space station to support any significant population? And what happens as what's natural happens and the population expands?


-I think so; especially with hydroponics and other unknown future technology advances.
-More living space(stations) is built, like we do in real life with structures.

Science fiction can be about real future possibilities based on what we can imagine our current science and technology might be able to lead to based on an exponential expansion like the past shows.
Like I stated earlier, that also seems to indicate that the far future, maybe even the near future, will have science and technology that we can't even imagine yet, and we can imagine alot now.

I'm sometimes surprised that this science fiction thinking sometimes is not used among some science fiction fans.
Often in science fiction games lately they seem to be based on World War 2 or modern warfare technologies and tactics. Incremental advances in various small technologies that seem to belong squeezed within 3 to 5 years of a WW2 game instead stretched into a science fiction game of hundreds or thousands of years.

I agree with what Baleur stated earlier:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

Also, if an advance/technology can be found in the game then I believe that it should eventually be able to be researched, without first finding it.


Too many space games focus on the "cheap" aspects of space. A space station, a few ships, a planet here and there with a generic random-noise star background.
I desperatly agree, i so badly want another space game that realizes space and sci-fi for what it is, and depicts it as such.

Ringworlds, dyson spheres, aging stars, forming stars, neutron stars (i was surprised to see them included in this game), proper good sci-fi.


Think of one of the most popular 4X space games, Master of Orion 2. It's science and technologies were truly amazing. Nearly each advance was like a new technological wonder that brought many changes to society and strategy and seemed to advance a civilization to a new era...nearly each advance.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

The Culture passes on terraforming every little ball around because forming their own Orbital and Ringworlds and Sphereworlds is possible and provides HUGE amounts of custom tailored land.


I know it's fictional, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I also haven't read the novels so apologies if it's answered in there...but why spend unthinkably massive quantities of resources on creating worlds from scratch when planets are present that provide a base on which to build?

Surely it would be totally inefficient to synthesise an entire world from scratch.


I imagine these habitats constructed using a sort of combination of energy to matter conversion, exponentially self replicating nanites, and telepoters. Also, the construction method could be something we can not even imagine yet.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: tornnight

I stand by my opinion that ring worlds and dyson spheres are ridiculously impractical.

Even if you had an army of nanobots constructing one it would likely take many thousands of years to construct or longer. And for what benefit over just teraforming a barren world?

The argument that regular worlds will be considered preserves is silly when you think of the number of barren worlds out there.

Okay; but don't underestimate the word "exponential" . Exponentially self replicating nanites in conjunction with energy to matter conversion, using the star, and teleporter technology...maybe even some method we can't yet imagine.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

For a thought comparison, theorectically speaking and opinionated, an ancient village person that somehow imagined super construction beyond huts, something like modern skyscraper buildings might imagine them taking hundreds of years to construct. He could not imagine all the various tools, robotics, computers, materials, etcetera, that allows them to be built in months or a few years.

His rational might be that his hut took several days to finish thus a skyscraper that can hold thousands of his huts must take hundreds of years to construct.

Some of us could be compared to that ancient village person imagining the construction time of a Ringworld or Sphereworld/Dyson Sphere.

Some of us might rationalize, with only our current understanding or closed imagination, that those future constructions must take thousands of years to construct.
I think it could take weeks to months... using sort of future technologies like energy to matter conversion, teleportation, nanites that self replicate exponentionally using the energy to matter conversion and then link themselves and other atoms and mollecules together, etcetera.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

Well, since its impossible according to the laws of physics for anything with mass to travel at the speed of light (no matter how advanced the civilization that builds the transport), it would have to be one hell of a big cargo ship to get all the stuff there in one go to build it in a month


The star would be used for energy to matter conversion to get unlimited building material: nanites and other molecules and atoms. This is assuming the theorectical technologies. There will be advances in our near and far future that we can not even imagine.

Think more about science fiction advances and maybe possible real life future advances. You did not even seem to take note of some of the advances I mention.


BESIDES:

quote:

Source of material
The Ringworld is described as having a mass approximately equal to the sum of all the planets in our solar system. The adventurers surmised that its construction consumed literally all the planets in that original system, down to the last asteroid and/or moon, as the Ringworld star has no other bodies in orbit. In Ringworld's Children it is additionally explained that it took the reaction mass of roughly 20 Jupiter masses to spin up the ring; thus either the combined mass of the planets of the original system was that much larger than our solar system's, or there was other source material

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld

A ringworld can be fairly thin compared to the unused surface area inside a solid sphere of a planet. That is, if you are NOT assuming the futuristic construction tools and methods I described.

< Message edited by Wade1000 -- 9/11/2010 8:06:05 PM >


_____________________________

Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 107
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