This is an incredible thread! I’m learning a lot about the basic economy of this game which is fundamental regardless of which strategy type a player chooses (still need lots of money to support big fleets). I’ve got several questions based on the replies I’ve seen here, so I’d like to keep this thread going for a while.
By the way: I just upgraded to version 1.6.0. Unfortunately, I think it deleted my old game when I did this because the saved game (from the other screen shots) is no longer available .. no matter, I started a new game with the newest version and my exact same old settings except I increased the aggression level to “restless” which I’m assuming is the same as “hard” but not “difficult” difficulty-setting. Maybe I’ll start creating an AAR of the new game for analysis.
quote:Of course, but there is a bottom price: 1.0. And I've never seen any other price than 1 for any of my resources...
the value of Steel and Polymer (which are part of ship maintenance costs) might rise if there is insufficient supply.
What’s making most of my income is luxury spices
Don't forget Zentabian fluid! The thing is, you get only one mine of each of these for the whole universe. They are a highly demanded stuff, and you cannot multiply the mining bases. Still you have enough to supply the galaxy. It is not different for the other resources.
checked on how many mines of each type I have, except for “rare” luxuries
Don't bother to check those, once again, it's 1 or 0, and you'll know when you find the planet.
quote: You have this info on your screen shot: several little effects on your economy, and a big one on your growth rate.
way of ancients [...]might have an effect on costs
That’s incredible: the disparity in population we have here. I’ve got 3.3 times your population though you have 4.9 times the number of planets as I do. So, if I’m understanding you, basically a player only needs one mine of each resource/luxury type, and any more than this is redundant & adds an un-necessary maintenance cost (for the extra unnecessary mining station)? 1k of kaladian spice, loros fruit, or zentabia fluid at 100k bucks a pop is equivalent to 100k of polymer or steel at 1k bucks a pop? Even though there’s 20 years (game time) between us, I don’t think you’d be able to get even half my population. Also, my tax sliders were set very low (like 15%) so I could have much more money if I wanted, but I want to keep the population happy and not revolting.
About mining bases efficiency: your mines are enough when they mine more than you spend. Simply look at the stocks of your mine: if it is maxed out, or nearly so, you don't need more. At all times the game keeps a portion of its cargo capability for each mine. By default, the low tech mines have a hold of 10 000 (20 cargo holds of 500 capacity each). So if they mine 1 resource, the maximum is 10 000, for 2 500, for 3, 3 333, and so on. Some time, the reserve are even a little higher than the maximum cargo hold... The planets seem to max out at 20 000 for each resource, whatever how many they mine. Yet you may sometime find a planet with more, possibly to meet construction needs.
Later in the game, when you have some trade going on, it may be harder to see because others empire ships may reserve some. They tend to love caslon... If a resource is not maxed everywhere, I think one maxed is enough: if they really need it, they will come and get it there. When so, only, will it be time to build more.
Studying my 8 mining bases (still with nearly 100 colonies) for the purpose of this discussion, I discover that I sell more stuff in the mines that are near the others empires (or even in the middle of them). It is quite obvious, but I did not think about that until now. They only buy fuel, though.
I don't know if anyone can confirm that, but I also note that aside fuel, the others empire seem to buy things only in my space ports, but do sometimes sell stuff in planets without space port (I can tell "sell" and not "buy" because the planets don't have any stock aside the one owned by the other empires). This may change the economy value of a well placed space port a lot!
quote: The dream value is not a low one, when it comes to a game! It's a little the idea of SupCom experimental units (how much I hate that name!), you rarely get to build them.
technologies that were so expensive that you couldn’t get them even in a 1000 yr game
The problem with research in this game is, you get most of it through exploration. Ship debris are too big an advantage, especially seeing how lazy the AI is with exploration.
When you find one of these super weapon technologies that come with advanced shipyard techs, you're sure to build a capital ship that cannot be stopped by the silly destroyer of the enemy...
I’m a bit confused on this, how can I see which resources are being bought/sold from my mines or space ports? I noticed that you have a huge space port income (109k) but I only have (9k). You have 784 freighters to my 259, that’s about 3 to 1. Yet, you have 12.1 times as much “space port income” as I do. I don’t understand how this is calculated? What exactly is it that creates “space port” income, and is it even under the control of the player? It seems to me that you would get much more from foreign trade (given the higher number of freighters, colonies, and passenger ships you have; plus the fact that I’m at war and you’re not), but I have a much higher foreign trade income (122k) than you do (6k).
I check out your empire summary, and it is full of very interesting things to compare. I'll post mine at the end of this post.
Before to say more, I must say that I have zentabian fluid and korribian spice, 2 very rare resources, like you.
I see you have fewer (36 against 167), but highly populated (163 320 against 48 210) colonies: Your game must have run for a lot longer time than mine. The date confirms it. 2790 for you, 2775 for me. If you got that way of the ancient thing for a while, it may explain the difference too, because of the population growth bonus.
The fact that you've choosen human has limited your expansion a lot, regarding your colonization capabilities.
I can see your mercantile fleet is a lot lighter than mine, but it does not fit with our number of worlds difference; I suppose this is because of your higher population, and perhaps cargo and hyperdrive technologies (I chose a fast rate of research speed). I can see your mining stations does not cost so much as I feared, compared to the merchants fleet. This merchant fleet makes a really big difference in my private sector, but it still is very profitable.
What is really stunning is your income is really very low compared to mine, not even a quarter more, if you keep in mind your tree times higher population.
The military costs are quite straightforward, given our military preferences.
I remark my resort income is really a lot higher than I thought. It's not that negligible...
So the question is: what makes such a big difference between your taxes and mine ? It can't be the mining stations. In fact, I think it is more your colonization capabilities. This also may be what makes you need more mining stations over colonizable stations. The colonies are very luxury hungry, especially when their development level is low; having a lot of small colonies with low development may generate a lot of trade, an so a lot of money.
And look at my space port income... It's more than a third of my revenues; I'm not sure if it is very stable, but I think it may be, given the number of colonizations I make.
You definitely need to capture some amphibian worlds to be able to colonize more of the galaxy.
I'm not sure if the war weariness you have has an impact, but I don't thing so (unless you lose lots of private stuff, which I assume you don't, given your military might).
In the end, the construction AI may not be that bad. Mining bases are the only way to be balance the lack of ability to colonize the various worlds with various luxury resources.
You may even have fewer strategic resources mining stations that you think.
(It's weird png files are not supported by the forum interface... You would have had easier to read screen shot)
Again that’s interesting the disparity between #planets and population .. what this tells me is that large numbers of colonies are not necessarily better (from an economic standpoint) than well-developed ones. Also, most of my tax settings are extremely low: ranging from 5% to 15% for all colonies except the home-world which had a 23% tax. The reason for this is I want to keep my people happy so they don’t revolt (primary reason). I could easily buy many more combat ships if I doubled my taxes to 30%, but the ultimate cost would probably be revolting-colonies, which I want to avoid at any cost (I’ll even end the war if it prevents a revolt should the war-weariness get out of hand).
Luckily for you, the huge cost of maintaining a large private fleet is not part of the “state” costs, or you would have real problems! But, I don’t really see what you’re getting for having such a large private sector fleet other than increased “space port” income? Of course, that might be worth it since your space port income is 109k to my 9k, although I’m making up for this in foreign trade 122k to your 6k. I don’t understand why “foreign trade” income goes to the “state”, and where exactly does “space port income” come from?
I did notice, looking over my ships & bases screen, that I had one resort base. Which is interesting because I didn’t build it .. one of my construction ships must have built it while on “auto”. Apparently it’s done nothing for me since I have 0k from resort income. After reading one of the other threads, it seems that resorts are very “iffy”. One guy had a resort built at a black hole (or something) and had dozens of passenger ships & got a resort income of 220k (if I remember correctly), another guy build a resort at the exact same scenic feature (in a different game) and had 0k resort income. It just seems to me resort income is something that cannot be counted upon and is completely 50/50.
You have a lot of small colonies generating trade using more luxuries, yet you’re foreign trade level is only 6% ? So, I’m not sure how you’re getting income from these numerous small colonies; it must be going to your “port income” somehow?
If I captured an “amphibian” world, would I get that colonization technology? If I knew that, I would’ve went way out of my way to capture an amphibian world earlier in the game!
I do have a lot of “war weariness”, but my taxes are set very low (15%) and (the last time I checked the colony screen) all my colonies had green happy faces with only two white (indifferent) faces. So, I’m sure the lack-of-taxes are going a long way to combat war weariness and (hopefully) revolt-risk.
It’s very interesting after all I’ve said (in my other posts) that with 9 construction ships (for some reason I thought I had 16) vs your 3 construction ships, in the end I have 80 mine ships and 16 mine bases to your 79 mine ships and 8 mining bases. Incredibly interesting, and it begs the question: what have my construction ships been doing the whole game if they’ve only build 7 more mines than you have despite having 3 times as many?? I think part of it can be explained with world-destroyer ships, I found two of these and they seem to take incredibly long to finish with construction ships. Another part is in the building of research stations, which “auto” does automatically (my research has always been at the cap). Also, at least one resort base was built on auto. And, as far as manual override, I’ve used construction ships to repair 3 or 4 of my damaged ships that were unable to use their engines after a battle. I found at least one “battlefield” site with numerous shipwrecks, and I used construction ships to repair a couple of these. Also, I manually built a couple of mines on rare luxury planets as well as a defense base and starbase there. I also manually built another defense base near a cluster of research stations near a black hole or nebulae.
Very interesting! My original post was aimed at creating a discussion to attempt to debunk the theory that building as many mining bases to claim as many resources as possible was a good strategy. I think we've done that now, because both of those screenshots are much healthier than my Empires where I built non-stop. The Automated AI clearly does not employ a non-stop building policy, it itself takes a conservative approach (not as conservative as Florestan though).
One thing I would say though is that you don't need as many Construction Ships as you have rk0123 to make those mines, one ship could have done that fine by your date, two ships would probably do that in the first 10 or 15 years of a game (when controlled manually).
You’re right, it doesn’t appear that I need to have as many construction ships as I do now. But, outside of their “economic” value in building mines, they’re also essential to build the “world destroyer” when you find them as well as repairing ships that can’t move. They can also build non-economic but important stuff like starbases and defense/monitoring bases.
The only reason I can think of why my first few games economy “tanked” and did not tank in later games (after I started building a second construction ship at start) was that I ran out of some resource and just one construction ship was not able to build a mine for that resource sufficiently quick enough at the start of the game. So, I still think that an extra construction ship at the start is useful (if you’re not completely on manual), but 9 construction ships 50 years into the game is unnecessary. Maybe 3 or 4 for the 50 year mark is plenty enough (to provide for reasonable construction ship “spacing”, “availability”, and “coverage” across the empire which would be fairly big at that point) .. it would stink if you only had one construction ship and it was clear across the galaxy when you need it to repair that key capital ship that’s 90% destroyed after some battle, or if you find the kaladdian spice moon but have to wait a year while that c-ship drags its butt across the galaxy from Timbuktu to east bumble. 14k maintenance cost is really not that much for a c-ship, that's only 4k more than an exploration ship, so an extra c-ship or two hanging around is not really that bad considering how extremely handy they are.
.. by the way, I started a new game using the new 1.6.0 version of the game and it started me off with 2 construction ships instead of 1 !!
This is very funny to me in the light of what we've been discussing in this thread.
< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/31/2010 3:40:30 AM >
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die: