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Private Economy Questions - 7/27/2010 11:42:15 AM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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Hey all!

I've noticed all my Empires run into the same problem. First let me go through the game settings because I think they are relevant:

Home-System: Trying
Galaxy Planet Quality: Reduced (can't remember the proper term)
Independant Populations: Both settings all the way down (I think thats Rare & Young)

The problem is that in the early game my economy is always really strong (sometimes because of the game settings the Empire starts the game losing money, but after 15mins or so I get it going strong), but when my Empire reaches the 10-20 planet number my economy really stagnates.

At this point, my tax income is about the same as when I had a 1 planet Empire at the start of the game, I keep the tax rate on my homeworld at the rate that lets the people have +16 happiness. All other planets I leave tax rate at 1% until they reach 1000mil population and then I either a) leave it at 1% if my economy is strong, b) raise it until they say +1 we like the current tax rate (because any higher than that and growth drops to 1-2%), or c) in emergency raise it until their happiness is +16 like my homeworld, usually I would do this if I'm broke.

I've noticed the reason I hit stagnation is because my private economy stops building ships so while early on I'm getting as high as 50k sdpaceport income, it then levels off at a steady 0-2k.

My private economy profit when my economy is in its boom stage is usually around 50 (in my current Empire I saw 54k), thats after all its outgoings. Now with my much larger Empires (in this case 16 planets) it is 7k.

So my question is: Have I built too many mining stations? I've seen people write before that to win DW mine everything. But my private economy base and ship maintenance (most of which is spent on the mining stations) has dropped my private economy from 54k a year to 7k! is this why they are not building much at my spaceports anymore, because they can't afford it?

My Empires demand for all resources in the Expansion planner is 0.0k So is there any point in building any new mining bases? I took a quick look around my spaceports and found that for most items I had exceeded the reserved amount of each resource stored at the base, a few luxury items I has less than the reserved, but each one has more than the reserved amount of at least 10 luxury resource types.

I can understand the build, build, build tactic that I've seen elsewhere on the forum, however, with no high population independant to absorb into your Empire, you are build, build, building for an Empires whose population is basically staying the same.

Is this how private economy works? If I had less mining bases, would they have built more ships because they would have more money due to less maintenance costs at bases?

I'm stuck at what would happen if I started again and only built enough mining bases to supply my Empire sufficiently and not have the massive excesses I have now. Would it lead to the private economy not building ships because there is less to transport, or would it lead to them building more ships because they can afford to do so not paying so much maintenance on mining bases.

Any help appreciated, sorry for long post!

Post #: 1
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/27/2010 6:31:15 PM   
Spacecadet

 

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quote:


I've noticed the reason I hit stagnation is because my private economy stops building ships so while early on I'm getting as high as 50k spaceport income, it then levels off at a steady 0-2k.


This isn't really your base Economy. It's adds to your income, but it's basically kind of like a one time thing.
All things being equal, the Private sector doesn't keep buying ships. Once they have what they need they'll only buy more ships if they lose one or if your Empire expands.

Your base Private sector economy is basically just the number of people you have (workers), with some productivity modifications from the number of Luxuries available.
Highly simplified, but essentially what you have.

With just 16 planets and the Private sector ship demand fulfilled, you're not going to have a massive inflow of cash.

quote:


My Empires demand for all resources in the Expansion planner is 0.0k So is there any point in building any new mining bases? I took a quick look around my spaceports and found that for most items I had exceeded the reserved amount of each resource stored at the base, a few luxury items I has less than the reserved, but each one has more than the reserved amount of at least 10 luxury resource types.


This can be a little misleading as certain demands change or don't kick in until various tech levels are achieved (different resources for components), and the real determining factor is the Galaxy demand.










(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 2
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/27/2010 9:45:51 PM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


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1) Make sure you keep building a lot of construciton sets and set them on auto, the more construction ships the more mines get built, and the more your costs decrease.

2) Build plenty of exploration ships and make sure you find the "rare" luxury item planet or moon. Be sure to manually build a mine there or declare war on any alien race that holds this & conquer it. My income went from +11k to +54k just for mining the Korrabian spice moon; its economic value is unbelievably high.

3) If you do these things, you should'nt have any economic problems with your finances "tanking". The hardest part is early on in the game in the first year or so when pirates are attacking & you don't have enough finances to build a large enough fleet. Overbuilding early won't work. Exploration & colony ships are essential early on, more colony ships (and hence colonies) = more taxes, and is the next best thing for your economy after the "rare" spice planets.

< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/27/2010 9:46:57 PM >


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Post #: 3
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/27/2010 11:36:37 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

1) Make sure you keep building a lot of construciton sets and set them on auto, the more construction ships the more mines get built, and the more your costs decrease.


This is the only thing I'm not sure about.  In my last game all my costs are at 1, which I believe to be the minimum, except for some luxury items, none of which are above 4, but most are at 1.  I usually have plenty of Construction Ships and I constantly build mines with them (I don't automate them though, I don't automate anything except sometimes Explorers, and of course my general frigate/escorts). 

I started this new game to experiment, my private economy is much stronger now I'm not building more mines than I need.  Its currently at +37 with only 6 colonies, in my last game (where I built as much as possible) it was +13 with 16 colonies.  At the moment all strategic resources are at cost 1 and the luxury resources cost is a bit all over the place, but the high cost ones are ones I haven't found yet.

My highest demand for any resource in this cut-back mining experiment is 0.1, my trade with the three other Empires I'm trading with is no less profitable than when I build non-stop.  I am still pretty loaded with resources, for example Yaras Marble, I have over 11,000 units sitting at one planet alone.

The only difference I have noticed is that my private economy is about 3 times as strong as my previous game because it has very low maintenance cost.  I have no idea what practical advantage (or disadvantage) this gives my Empire though.  My state economy is about the same as usual.


< Message edited by WoodMan -- 7/27/2010 11:38:49 PM >

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 4
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 1:15:50 PM   
Florestan

 

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From: Montpellier, France
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quote:

Make sure you keep building a lot of construction sets and set them on auto, the more construction ships the more mines get built, and the more your costs decrease.
Sorry, but I think you're doubly wrong... The more mines, the more charges for the private sector, the less ships ordered, and so, the less income for the empire. What you need is luxury resources, but having too much of it will do you no good. It could even lower the prices, so the private income, so you taxes. To get luxury resources, build colonies, avoid mines when possible. Look at your stocks where they are produced : there is no need to have much stocks.

I use the technique you're wondering if it is good, Woodman. I noticed the same things about the resources stocks, and decided to stop that. It works well for me, but I use more gentle difficulty settings.
When my empire grows, the private ships building generally grows with it, and it pays for my expansion.
In the beginning, once you have one or two fuel mining stations and some luxury resources mining stations, you're good to go for a very long time. I currently have 167 colonies, and 3 sources for caslon and hydrogen, with a total stock of 143K and 145K...
Checking them, I discover they all have full stock, 2 of them being of the first technologies...
I only have a few luxury resources mines, left from times when I could not colonize all world types.
The best thing to do is spend your money in colony and exploration ships (build 4 of the later is the first thing I do). Explore to the max, and micromanage explorer for some time to search only for habitable planets. Colonize them as soon as you find them. Don't bother to prospect any other planet types, until you have more colonizable worlds than you can manage, so the mining ships can fill the gaps. Being able to colonize ocean worlds help a lot, because they are a lot more common than continental ones, and have more varieties of resources than the volcanic planets, that are as common as them. Marsh and Desert planets are nice, but not so common. Ice have less resource variety and are quite rare.
Make sure you have enough space ports so the private economy may build the ships they need. If you don't stop to colonize, the private sector won't stop to buy ships : this is a big part of your earnings. As you don't automatize designs, don't forget to upgrade civilian designs: the private tend to replace its ships sometimes. If they have the money, you may have massive replacements over your empire, with tens of ship ordering at once. Once, I've seen my account suddenly swell by 200 000, and found all my usually idle space ports where overbooked.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 5
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 2:04:59 PM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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I think I agree with your technique Florestan, its close to what I'm trying in my current experiment I mentioned above.  The only thing I'm lacking is Spaceports, I agree they are important, I just got a bit carried away with exploring and fighting a pirate faction which had a Cruiser in the very early game (due to a random event) that I forgot to build any 

Exploring and colonizing are very important, more so than spamming mines I agree.  Another advantage of building mines later when you need them rather than spamming early on is that you will get the new designs, if you build them all early they will be the low tech level designs.

There is a reason to build Caslon mines early in obscure places, something I've never really bothered with before, but am doing this time around.  I found two ship debris fields in systems right in the centre of the map, I was guided there by one of the messages from ancient ruins and got a starbase in the middle of nowhere that had long range sensors, the sensors showed the two debris fields.  My Empire was on the very far edge of the galaxy so these debris fields were too far away for me to effectively claim because my ships moved like snails with no fuel when they got there.  I built a mining station at one of the systems though, my ships could refuel there which helped claiming the debris.

Does anyone know the answer to this following problem question, its something I haven't tried yet and can't right now due to reinstall of windows this afternoon (sorry for wall of text) :  When you tell a constructionship to build a mining base it first goes to your local spaceport to get the supplies it needs and then moves on to the location to build the mining base.  So, if you have discovered a debris field in a system very far from your Empire which has Gas Giants in it, you can't send the Constructionship to build until an Explorer has scanned the planets in that system to find the resources.  This means you have to wait for the Explorer to travel half way across the galaxy and then scan the planets before you can give your Construction ship the order, which then has to load up and then fly halfway across the galaxy itself.  If the Explorer and Constructionship went at the same time however, the journey time  would be cut in half, you don't have to wait for the explorer to get there before sending the Constructor.  Of course, this would be no good because the Constructor would have to travel all the way back again to get the supplies.  So, what happens if you tell your Constructor to build a Gas Mining station somewhere (for example your home system) then after it has got its supplies from your Spaceport cancel its mission.  Could you then send it all the way to the unexplored system with the Explorer, and have it build a gas station in that system without having it have to return to your Empire for the supplies?

(in reply to Florestan)
Post #: 6
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 2:35:07 PM   
Florestan

 

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I'm not sure, but I think the constructor do not need to go to the building place before to go loading construction material. When idle, I personally store my construction around a space port equipped planet, so when something need construction, they don't have far away to go loading.
Also, debris field are often found in high quality colonizable planet rich systems. So I colonize some of them, and it's generally enough to refuel all the ships I repair. I also guard the place with some big ships, so they can claim the salvage. Equipping all constructors with a detection array is also a good idea to ensure you are the one claiming the ships.
I'm not sure either, but oddly enough, it seem the constructors don't need to get any material to repair a ship. Only to end the construction of the unfinished ships you may find on your explorations.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 7
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 2:56:18 PM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


Posts: 81
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan

quote:

Make sure you keep building a lot of construction sets and set them on auto, the more construction ships the more mines get built, and the more your costs decrease.


Sorry, but I think you're doubly wrong... The more mines, the more charges for the private sector, the less ships ordered, and so, the less income for the empire. What you need is luxury resources, but having too much of it will do you no good. It could even lower the prices, so the private income, so you taxes. To get luxury resources, build colonies, avoid mines when possible. Look at your stocks where they are produced : there is no need to have much stocks.



Out of the 8 or 10 games I've played so far I've noticed the opposite: the more construction ships I have, the more mines get built (all types of mines including luxury and research), and as a result lower maintenence costs (hence pushing my empire more into the black financially). Those games I played before figuring this out I only had a couple construction ships at most and the maintenence costs were driving my empire heavily into the red due to costs of materials, hence "tanking" my economy (in terms used by other users in other posts). With more construction ships "auto-constructing", I was able to support a fleet two or three times larger than the same empire with less construction ships. So yeah, I disagree with you on the above as to construction ships based upon what I've seen in this game. Exactly how many (construction ships) are a good number to have (vs total empire size) I can't say: at this point in my game (just prior to getting my second "rare" spice) I have 24 fleets (fleets range from 3 to 12 ships each), many non-combat ships, and 16 construction ships & things are running well about 75% of the galaxy is explored.

I agree though that luxury spices are the key to building truly massive empires. With just kalladian spice I was able to multiply my empire size (more ships) by a factor of 8 before costs started becoming a factor again. I went from 11k to 54k after getting this one planet and immediately added over 30 new ships. And you won't need to worry about "too much doing no good" by lowering prices because you can only build one mine on a planet, hence there will only be a supply of one spice unless there exsits a second planet of it somewhere else (which I haven't found), thus it's impossible to "over produce" rare luxury resources & drive its value down. All other prices I want to be low to support as large a fleet as I can. "Low resource prices = good", "high luxury prices = good if you have it, bad if you don't."

I do know that passenger ship tourism affects income, but I don't have enough data at this point to determine exactly how much so. I do know that (according to other posts) resort bases need to be built near "scenic" sites that are also close to heavily populated planets to generate good income from this method. But, of the games I've played so far, all the "scenic" spots seem to be far away from my starting homeword (thus I haven't bothered to build a resort base, unless a construction ship auto-built one which I havent' checked yet). So, I don't know: 1) exactly how close does it need to be? 2) How much income can I expect from this? 3) how best do I design the resort base or what components (research) need to be made to maximize a good inome from this method?

So, my advice to new guys based on what I've learned so far, as far as finances go are:
1) Build an extra construction ship right from the getgo along with a couple extra combat ships to deal with pirates (assuming starting with "normal" settings and "basic starting level research" earliest start of tech tree which is how I like to play the game) .. unless you want to "pay off pirates" .. which I don't, I prefer to pay them with bullets. You're also gonna need a lot of exploration ships and colony ships for the worlds you'll find. Defeating pirate bases sometimes makes pirate fleets join your empire, hence increasing the size of your fleets and also disassembling some ships grants research bonuses.
2) Eventually you'll find the "rare" spices, unless you get very lucky near the beginning (I've had to search 40% of a 700 star map before finding it), make sure you build a mine & defense base there to protect this valuable asset. You're income should quadruple (at least) at this point.
3) Resort bases on "scenic" sites near heavy populated planets. But, I don't have enough info on this yet to gauge how much this impacts or adds to an empire's finances.

< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/28/2010 3:07:24 PM >


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Post #: 8
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 3:18:43 PM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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I think though it may depend on your game settings a little, without the independant populations your planets will ALL make 0k to 1k revenue which is where the private sector gets its money from.  What I'm saying is that the maintenance costs can not possibly get any lower than they already are in my game, they are as low as they can possibly be, so building new mines won't help lower the costs, they are already at maximum low cost.

So, I have an Empire with say 16 planets, the revenue from my home planet is good, the revenue from my other 15 planets is 0 for all but say 3 or 4 which make 1k.  This means that the private economy has an extra 4k to spend at 16 planets than it did at 1 planet at the game start, so its not making anymore money, it doesn't have any more money to spend, building new mining bases will put its maintenance costs up (and it doesn't have anymore money to pay them) while not lowering your state maintenance costs at all.

If you have got 75% of the galaxy, played with higher planet quality meaning more population, more independants (meaning bonus planets that you don't have to wait for 4 hours to have an impact on the economy), not to mention the easier settings let you/AI eventually colonise most of the galaxy (with reduced Ice and Volcanic become virtually unusable, Desert around 60% are unusable, Swamp are okay but support low populations).  Playing that way you can build and probably need to build more.  With the reduced settings I use I can't see any reason to build more, until all my low population planets start reaching the 1000m population mark, before that, they really have no impact on your Empire at all (apart from the resources they mine), and it does really take several hours for them to come into play.

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 9
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/28/2010 3:29:12 PM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


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I'm assuming that construction ships set to "auto-construct" won't build another mine if they don't need it: why build 20 steel mines if your empire only needs 18? I don't know about the quality of the AI in this game, but it only makes sense. I've just noticed that things tend to run better (financially) with more construction ships rather than less construction ships (obviously there's a point to where there are too many: it might be that I've just stumbled on that "sweet spot" of construction ships vs empire size).

Also, with more construction ships there will usually be one fairly close when you need one for "manual" purposes such as repairing a ship (sometimes engines get battle damage & they won't move) or building a specific type of base such as a defense base.

I'm not sure I know exaclty what you mean by "reduced" settings? .. most of my at-start settings are normal, though I start with one homeworld (normal quality), and lowest tech level at start with tech level costs set to max (I hate upgrading constantly & maxing out on tech research which is too common in 4x games like this unfortunately). Monsters and pirates are set to normal, and I think I started with 12 or 13 AI on 700 world (dispersed) galaxy map. I think I have difficulty set to "normal" but I don't remember right off-hand.

< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/28/2010 3:36:55 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/29/2010 1:03:18 AM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

I'm not sure I know exaclty what you mean by "reduced" settings?


I just mean reduce the slider for home-system, galaxy-wise planet quality, independents and also set galaxy age to minimum (further reducing independants).

It makes the economy a lot harder to manage early on, but once things get going it calms down a bit, it also means your Empire population (and the AI) will grow a lot slower because a)the planets can't support as many people and b) you find less independent worlds and don't find independent worlds with lots of people (most have about 50mil to 250mil on them).

quote:

I'm assuming that construction ships set to "auto-construct" won't build another mine if they don't need it: why build 20 steel mines if your empire only needs 18?


Very good point, as I don't keep them automated I couldn't say, but thats probably the case.  However, from having the automation off and watching the economy and resource situation carefully, I've kind of noticed that you need very few mining bases, especially strategic resource bases.  1 Constructor could do my Empire for the first 10 years without a problem, maybe 20, but I still have built more for scavenging the debris fields.

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 11
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/29/2010 3:02:16 PM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


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Joined: 7/23/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

quote:

I'm not sure I know exaclty what you mean by "reduced" settings?


I just mean reduce the slider for home-system, galaxy-wise planet quality, independents and also set galaxy age to minimum (further reducing independants).

It makes the economy a lot harder to manage early on, but once things get going it calms down a bit, it also means your Empire population (and the AI) will grow a lot slower because a)the planets can't support as many people and b) you find less independent worlds and don't find independent worlds with lots of people (most have about 50mil to 250mil on them).

quote:

I'm assuming that construction ships set to "auto-construct" won't build another mine if they don't need it: why build 20 steel mines if your empire only needs 18?


Very good point, as I don't keep them automated I couldn't say, but thats probably the case.  However, from having the automation off and watching the economy and resource situation carefully, I've kind of noticed that you need very few mining bases, especially strategic resource bases.  1 Constructor could do my Empire for the first 10 years without a problem, maybe 20, but I still have built more for scavenging the debris fields.




I set homeworld quality to "normal" at start. I assume that applies to everyone & the AIs? I feel that everyone should at least start with a good world since you don't know what you're gonna get in the surrounding areas. I've pretty much set all the game start settings to "normal" except for the tech start (at lowest level), and tech advancement costs to high, which is typically how I like to play games because research Maxes out too early, and I don't like constantly upgraging ships. Eventually, I move to higher levels of difficulty. Once I'm able to beat the highest level of difficulty is usually when I lose interest in that computer game. Hopefully, distant world has a good high-difficulty AI. I like this game so far, but it's very clunky in the auto-vs-manual override category & there are small things that I havent figured out (of which I've made several posts now on).

That's wierd about the lack of mining needs; it's completely different from my experience so far. The first 5 or 6 games I lost, even at low difficulty settings, because my economy "tanked". When I built more construction ships, my economy no longer "tanked" and I was able to support larger (relatively speaking for that point in time) fleets early on from the start.

Obviously our play styles are completely different, and you're not requiring money as much as I am. I could'nt go 10 years with one mining ship, but in all honesty, I haven't looked at the time-clock to see how long it's taken me to do this or that; that'll come later once I refine my strategy and put numbers and time-goals on it.

I imagine that you prefer smaller fleets, at least from the start, and build up later to some extent, perhaps you pay off pirates. I don't sell out to pirates, I flatten them (pirates at "normal" setting seem to be active pretty much from the getgo). So, my first builds are going to be 2 to 4 military ships, another construction ship, exploration ships and colony ships (as my finances can support at about 6000 bucks a pop). That extra construction ship allows me to do this from the start, without it my economy "tanks". Hence, I consider an extra construction ship essential from the start. As I get more colonies, I'll build more construction ships (I think that there's a linear graduation of construction-ship-need-to-empire size, but I haven't exactly quantified it at this point). I set them on auto, but I occasionally do manual control when I repair specific ships (auto doesn't seem to do this), build a specific mining station on a rare resource (to make sure I get it), defense bases, research stations on good spots like black holes, etc. I haven't explored the tourist aspect of the game at this point, but eventually I'll probably build tourism resorts at good sites when I find one. There seems to be things that "auto" doesn't do, so I have to do these things manually.

I like to have large fleets, large fleets make me feel good & sleep better at night , so I need a lot of money to support that strategy. The best strategy for dealing with AI is to destroy them (one or two at a time preferably) along with pirates. All AIs are just squatting on my lands from the start of their existence on the map. I rarely do diplomacy. I also like being at cutting edge of technology with weapons & shields, so research is a top priority in my book. Tourism is only good as a means of getting more money to support larger fleets. This is just my style of play, so the type of problems I may experience (running out of money trying to support ever-larger fleets for example) might be different from someone who is more of a "friendly diplomat" or liberal type and prefers "peaceful coexistence" and "paying off pirates" (for example) over that of brutal domination, subjugation, and war which is much more enjoyable . After all, war is just diplomacy by alternate means

I read in some other posts that empires will revolt if you nuke planet populations in this game, so at this point my planet conquest plan involves the use of lots of transports & invasion troops to avoid the consequences of revolt. I've only invaded two planets sucessfully at this point, but the problem is more of keeping transports full, cuz for some reason they don't like to "load troops." I don't like to automate military ships, since I like them to be where I want them to be when I need them. But, I might need to automate troop loading transports becuase it's becoming a problem with them never having troops on-board. The concept of "armed freighters" that someone else posted would be a great idea, but I haven't figured how to make the private sector use my designs .. they seem to want to "automate" their own designs & not use mine.

< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/29/2010 3:04:29 PM >


_____________________________

Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

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Post #: 12
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/29/2010 5:20:00 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

Obviously our play styles are completely different, and you're not requiring money as much as I am. I could'nt go 10 years with one mining ship, but in all honesty, I haven't looked at the time-clock to see how long it's taken me to do this or that; that'll come later once I refine my strategy and put numbers and time-goals on it.


Just to clarify, I wouldn't recommend it either, but I meant mainly in mining terms, you still need more if you want to repair wrecks and stuff, I actually keep the one or two I get at game start and get another when the economy allows.  However, I think if I restricted myself to 1 I wouldn't suffer too much, I just wouldn't be able to send it away to repair wrecks or damaged ships because it would be building mines

Your right I hardly build any military at the start, but the reason for this is on my settings the economy often starts in -figures Constructionships usually cost 2k each to maintain at the very start, so building a new one early is a big decision too.

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 13
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/29/2010 7:25:47 PM   
Florestan

 

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From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline
rk, I don't understand how building more can lower the costs... As far as I know, the maintenance costs are a fixed for each ship and base. The only way to change that is to change the command computer thing to a better model.
I don't understand how producing more than you use or trade, hence only growing your stocks, can make you any good...
What is it that exactly make you earn money in your strategy ?
quote:

why build 20 steel mines if your empire only needs 18?
As a matter of fact they never need 18 steel mines... As much of the time my mines, as they are, are idle, because the cargo bay are full, and rarely receive enough ships to significantly lower the stock. The only advantage you get by having more of them is that the private ship have less way to travel. Most of the colony have big stock anyway.
quote:

This is just my style of play, so the type of problems I may experience [...] might be different from someone[else]
This does not explain why you need to use so much construction ships. In that regard, the big difference between my games and yours is the fact that you keep the constructor ship automated. Perhaps the AI is so bad that it only rarely build the mines you really need, so if you have a lot of them running around, you have a better chance that they build all things that are really needed (like mines on resourceful habitable planets you don't have the race or technology to colonize). In my first games, before I found that stock problem, I did see how bad the choices of construction of the AI were... That's why I chose to manage them myself. It is not really a burden now that I only build a few mining bases in a game.
The other thing is, I play with the beta for quite a long time, now, and I think WoodMan does too. If you're using the 1.0.4.9, it is possible that something has been changed that explain these differences.
I don't see anything else that could explain the difference in our experiences.
quote:

hopefully, distant world has a good high-difficulty AI
Well, Er... I wouldn't have said that... I usually am quite hated (as I use spies a lot) but I am rarely attacked. When I am, I'm so much powerful than them that it is ridiculous...
So far, I never lost a single world, and I don't think any enemy never so much as dropped troops on one of my planets. The thing is, I hate when the AI "cheats", for example by having beginning advantages or whatever, so I did not try to advantage them in the galaxy generation to higher the difficulty... AI in games is something really complex, and it takes experienced specialists along with a lot of work to do it right, so I understand why it is like it is. The games has mad improvement, though. I also noted that races who can colonize ocean words have a great advantage, and so, I tend to choose amphibians.
quote:

Obviously our play styles are completely different, and you're not requiring money as much as I am. I
You seem to build a big lot of military ships. I prefer to have some big ships, when the technology is available. Most of them often lie forgotten and idle in a corner of my empire, with a few that I use run to crush the pirates, monsters, and sometimes empires that annoy or defy me. This obviously makes the economy easier for me. The only difficulty I had in that area is to get enough money to colonize all the worlds I found in the beginning of my games.
quote:

for some reason [my transport ships] don't like to "load troops.
I'm not sure if you have seen that aspect of the game or not, but you have to train the troops on your worlds before you can load them (troop tab of the colony screen)... It takes quite some time to finish each. And if your military ships are not automated, you have to order them to load. The troop AI usually orders troops on the big worlds for defence, and I don't think it plan to train troops for conquest. In fact, I don't see how it could know where you will need the troops.
I've noticed the troops get experience like the spies, and you can end with very powerful troops, if you take care of them. The think is, as far as I know, you cannot see the efficiency of the troops of enemy worlds. It sometimes leads to big disappointments.

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 14
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/30/2010 1:59:18 AM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/23/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
rk, I don't understand how building more can lower the costs... As far as I know, the maintenance costs are a fixed for each ship and base. The only way to change that is to change the command computer thing to a better model.
I don't understand how producing more than you use or trade, hence only growing your stocks, can make you any good...
What is it that exactly make you earn money in your strategy ?


Yeah, but the costs of the materials vary based on the supply/demand. For example, the value of Steel and Polymer (which are part of ship maintenance costs) might rise if there is insufficient supply. Construction ships that auto-build mines keep a plentiful supply and thus the resource costs down. Keep in mind, I’m not an expert. This is only what I’ve deduced based on playing this game 10 so times & reading other threads on this forum; I’ve had the game for about a week & half now. The first big hurdle I needed to figure out was: why is my economy “tanking”? My first three games on easy difficulty I lost (quit & restarted) because of this. I figured out that to prevent early “tanking” of my economy I needed an extra construction ship at start. Now, the exact number of construction ships needed ranges from 2 at start to (at this point) 16 for an empire with 24 fleets and 40ish (I want to say) colonized worlds (this is not etched in stone, it’s just a starting point to figure out empire needs: have to start somewhere). What’s making most of my income is luxury spices. I have kalladian spice and Loros fruit, I haven’t figured the best approach to tourism as of yet. I attached a print screen of my empire summary: it says 232k from taxes and 122k from trade agreements, I don’t know exactly how the two “rare” spices fit in there, but I know for a fact that my economy jumped significantly each time I built a mine on a rare resource planet (I was able to essentially triple the size of my fleet each time).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

why build 20 steel mines if your empire only needs 18?


As a matter of fact they never need 18 steel mines... As much of the time my mines, as they are, are idle, because the cargo bay are full, and rarely receive enough ships to significantly lower the stock. The only advantage you get by having more of them is that the private ship have less way to travel. Most of the colony have big stock anyway.


I actually haven’t gone into the expansion planner and checked on how many mines of each type I have, except for “rare” luxuries which seem to have the most significant effect. It seems, other resource mines only have an effect when I “lack” them (driving up the prices of resources and thus maintenance costs). I checked to see if I have at least one of each somewhere (and if not I need to find it). By the way, I checked the maintenance cost of a construction ship, and it’s only 14k. That’s only 4k more than an exploration ship(10k). Most other ships have much higher maintenance costs; the construction ship is actually at the low end of costs. BTW: I took humans & democracy at start and switched over to way of ancients at the first opportunity, that might have an effect on costs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

This is just my style of play, so the type of problems I may experience [...] might be different from someone[else]


This does not explain why you need to use so much construction ships. In that regard, the big difference between my games and yours is the fact that you keep the constructor ship automated. Perhaps the AI is so bad that it only rarely build the mines you really need, so if you have a lot of them running around, you have a better chance that they build all things that are really needed (like mines on resourceful habitable planets you don't have the race or technology to colonize). In my first games, before I found that stock problem, I did see how bad the choices of construction of the AI were... That's why I chose to manage them myself. It is not really a burden now that I only build a few mining bases in a game.
The other thing is, I play with the beta for quite a long time, now, and I think WoodMan does too. If you're using the 1.0.4.9, it is possible that something has been changed that explain these differences.
I don't see anything else that could explain the difference in our experiences.


To be honest, I haven’t actually noticed that the construction ship does badly on “auto”. I occasionally try to override auto for some reason or another (such as building a specific mine on a luxury planet) and I usually run into problems when I do this .. like I said I’m not an expert yet and I’m still learning the ropes after 10 games: I’ve run into conflicts when trying to override “auto”. I have no doubt that if you’re managing all your construction ships manually, you’re doing the most efficient job possible. The problem is, even if I did run all my construction ships manually, I wouldn’t know what the most efficient number of steel mines (for example) is for a colony of 36 planets and 150 combat ships (for example) .. I don’t want too many (to drive up excess & unnecessary maintenance costs) and I don’t want too few (too drive up costs due to “steel” now becoming scarce and thus more expensive a resource since this part of maintenance costs) .. that’s what I mean when I say “auto” construction ships seem to being doing well (my economy is not tanking). I’m sure that if I knew exactly what to do though (& how many to do it with), I could maximize efficiency by manually running my construction ships (like you do) .. but I have no idea what is “most efficient” at this point (I’ve only played 10 games).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

hopefully, distant world has a good high-difficulty AI


Well, Er... I wouldn't have said that... I usually am quite hated (as I use spies a lot) but I am rarely attacked. When I am, I'm so much powerful than them that it is ridiculous...
So far, I never lost a single world, and I don't think any enemy never so much as dropped troops on one of my planets. The thing is, I hate when the AI "cheats", for example by having beginning advantages or whatever, so I did not try to advantage them in the galaxy generation to higher the difficulty... AI in games is something really complex, and it takes experienced specialists along with a lot of work to do it right, so I understand why it is like it is. The games has mad improvement, though. I also noted that races who can colonize ocean words have a great advantage, and so, I tend to choose amphibians.


Eventually I’m going to reach the highest level of difficulty, and it’s just my personal trait that I tend to lose interest (in any game) once I can beat the AI on the highest difficulty setting: it could be a great game or could be a crummy game, it’s more about “me” than about the “game” itself. A good “difficult” AI will get me more motivated to beat it. At this point though I’m only on “normal” difficulty, so I’ve still got a ways to go yet. I tend to prefer research-oriented races, because I like to have the most advanced weapons & shields earliest. Strong ships are usually better than a horde of weak ones, though it depends too on how big the “horde” is.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

Obviously our play styles are completely different, and you're not requiring money as much as I am. I

You seem to build a big lot of military ships. I prefer to have some big ships, when the technology is available. Most of them often lie forgotten and idle in a corner of my empire, with a few that I use run to crush the pirates, monsters, and sometimes empires that annoy or defy me. This obviously makes the economy easier for me. The only difficulty I had in that area is to get enough money to colonize all the worlds I found in the beginning of my games.


Yeah, I like lots of military ships. I purposely set the research starting level at “low” and research costs to “high” because I don’t want to upgrade my ships constantly for one thing, and I like to have designs that aren’t obsolete 2 months after the first ship is commissioned. Also, I’ve noticed in virtually every 4x game that technology always gets maxed out too soon. It would actually be kool if there were technologies that were so expensive that you couldn’t get them even in a 1000 yr game (that’s just my personal opinion). Since capital ship technology is now harder to get, more of the game is decided by destroyers & captured pirate ships (cruisers), which is actually something I like. I recently got capital & cruiser technology, so I’ve laid down my first big ships, though I was able to recover two “world destroyers” and I had several cruisers that I got from defeating pirate bases which didn’t get scrapped (mostly I scrap them to get tech advances).

I go out of my way to colonize every world I can, and I have pretty significantly sized exploration ship fleet as well (another thing I learned from my first few games that I need a lot of in this game). I’ve actually lost colony ships trying to get everything at once.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

for some reason [my transport ships] don't like to "load troops.


I'm not sure if you have seen that aspect of the game or not, but you have to train the troops on your worlds before you can load them (troop tab of the colony screen)... It takes quite some time to finish each. And if your military ships are not automated, you have to order them to load. The troop AI usually orders troops on the big worlds for defence, and I don't think it plan to train troops for conquest. In fact, I don't see how it could know where you will need the troops.

I've noticed the troops get experience like the spies, and you can end with very powerful troops, if you take care of them. The think is, as far as I know, you cannot see the efficiency of the troops of enemy worlds. It sometimes leads to big disappointments.


My troop conquest plan has been completely inefficient. I’m sure I could’ve won this game by now if I correctly planned for more troops & troop transports and got them loaded without hitch. I’ve recently laid down a whole slew of troops which should be getting done soon, I’ve tried to order my troop ships to “load troops” but I don’t think they like following my orders. If it says 100% in the troop tab, does that mean they’re ready to go? But you’re right, I noticed this game that it takes a while to train troops, something I have to plan in advance in the future. I learn something new every game.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

(in reply to Florestan)
Post #: 15
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/30/2010 2:33:07 PM   
Florestan

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 6/5/2010
From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline
quote:

the value of Steel and Polymer (which are part of ship maintenance costs) might rise if there is insufficient supply.
Of course, but there is a bottom price: 1.0. And I've never seen any other price than 1 for any of my resources...
quote:

What’s making most of my income is luxury spices
Don't forget Zentabian fluid! The thing is, you get only one mine of each of these for the whole universe. They are a highly demanded stuff, and you cannot multiply the mining bases. Still you have enough to supply the galaxy. It is not different for the other resources.
quote:

checked on how many mines of each type I have, except for “rare” luxuries
Don't bother to check those, once again, it's 1 or 0, and you'll know when you find the planet.
quote:

way of ancients [...]might have an effect on costs
You have this info on your screen shot: several little effects on your economy, and a big one on your growth rate.

About mining bases efficiency: your mines are enough when they mine more than you spend. Simply look at the stocks of your mine: if it is maxed out, or nearly so, you don't need more. At all times the game keeps a portion of its cargo capability for each mine. By default, the low tech mines have a hold of 10 000 (20 cargo holds of 500 capacity each). So if they mine 1 resource, the maximum is 10 000, for 2 500, for 3, 3 333, and so on. Some time, the reserve are even a little higher than the maximum cargo hold... The planets seem to max out at 20 000 for each resource, whatever how many they mine. Yet you may sometime find a planet with more, possibly to meet construction needs.
Later in the game, when you have some trade going on, it may be harder to see because others empire ships may reserve some. They tend to love caslon... If a resource is not maxed everywhere, I think one maxed is enough: if they really need it, they will come and get it there. When so, only, will it be time to build more.
Studying my 8 mining bases (still with nearly 100 colonies) for the purpose of this discussion, I discover that I sell more stuff in the mines that are near the others empires (or even in the middle of them). It is quite obvious, but I did not think about that until now. They only buy fuel, though.
I don't know if anyone can confirm that, but I also note that aside fuel, the others empire seem to buy things only in my space ports, but do sometimes sell stuff in planets without space port (I can tell "sell" and not "buy" because the planets don't have any stock aside the one owned by the other empires). This may change the economy value of a well placed space port a lot!
quote:

technologies that were so expensive that you couldn’t get them even in a 1000 yr game
The dream value is not a low one, when it comes to a game! It's a little the idea of SupCom experimental units (how much I hate that name!), you rarely get to build them.
The problem with research in this game is, you get most of it through exploration. Ship debris are too big an advantage, especially seeing how lazy the AI is with exploration.
When you find one of these super weapon technologies that come with advanced shipyard techs, you're sure to build a capital ship that cannot be stopped by the silly destroyer of the enemy...

I check out your empire summary, and it is full of very interesting things to compare. I'll post mine at the end of this post.
Before to say more, I must say that I have zentabian fluid and korribian spice, 2 very rare resources, like you.
I see you have fewer (36 against 167), but highly populated (163 320 against 48 210) colonies: Your game must have run for a lot longer time than mine. The date confirms it. 2790 for you, 2775 for me. If you got that way of the ancient thing for a while, it may explain the difference too, because of the population growth bonus.
The fact that you've choosen human has limited your expansion a lot, regarding your colonization capabilities.
I can see your mercantile fleet is a lot lighter than mine, but it does not fit with our number of worlds difference; I suppose this is because of your higher population, and perhaps cargo and hyperdrive technologies (I chose a fast rate of research speed). I can see your mining stations does not cost so much as I feared, compared to the merchants fleet. This merchant fleet makes a really big difference in my private sector, but it still is very profitable.
What is really stunning is your income is really very low compared to mine, not even a quarter more, if you keep in mind your tree times higher population.
The military costs are quite straightforward, given our military preferences.
I remark my resort income is really a lot higher than I thought. It's not that negligible...
So the question is: what makes such a big difference between your taxes and mine ? It can't be the mining stations. In fact, I think it is more your colonization capabilities. This also may be what makes you need more mining stations over colonizable stations. The colonies are very luxury hungry, especially when their development level is low; having a lot of small colonies with low development may generate a lot of trade, an so a lot of money.
And look at my space port income... It's more than a third of my revenues; I'm not sure if it is very stable, but I think it may be, given the number of colonizations I make.
You definitely need to capture some amphibian worlds to be able to colonize more of the galaxy.
I'm not sure if the war weariness you have has an impact, but I don't thing so (unless you lose lots of private stuff, which I assume you don't, given your military might).
In the end, the construction AI may not be that bad. Mining bases are the only way to be balance the lack of ability to colonize the various worlds with various luxury resources.
You may even have fewer strategic resources mining stations that you think.
(It's weird png files are not supported by the forum interface... You would have had easier to read screen shot)




Attachment (1)

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 16
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/30/2010 4:01:39 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline
Very interesting!  My original post was aimed at creating a discussion to attempt to debunk the theory that building as many mining bases to claim as many resources as possible was a good strategy.  I think we've done that now, because both of those screenshots are much healthier than my Empires where I built non-stop.  The Automated AI clearly does not employ a non-stop building policy, it itself takes a conservative approach (not as conservative as Florestan though).

One thing I would say though is that you don't need as many Construction Ships as you have rk0123 to make those mines, one ship could have done that fine by your date, two ships would probably do that in the first 10 or 15 years of a game (when controlled manually).

(in reply to Florestan)
Post #: 17
RE: Private Economy Questions - 7/31/2010 12:49:01 AM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/23/2010
Status: offline
This is an incredible thread! I’m learning a lot about the basic economy of this game which is fundamental regardless of which strategy type a player chooses (still need lots of money to support big fleets). I’ve got several questions based on the replies I’ve seen here, so I’d like to keep this thread going for a while.

By the way: I just upgraded to version 1.6.0. Unfortunately, I think it deleted my old game when I did this because the saved game (from the other screen shots) is no longer available .. no matter, I started a new game with the newest version and my exact same old settings except I increased the aggression level to “restless” which I’m assuming is the same as “hard” but not “difficult” difficulty-setting. Maybe I’ll start creating an AAR of the new game for analysis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

the value of Steel and Polymer (which are part of ship maintenance costs) might rise if there is insufficient supply.
Of course, but there is a bottom price: 1.0. And I've never seen any other price than 1 for any of my resources...
quote:


What’s making most of my income is luxury spices

Don't forget Zentabian fluid! The thing is, you get only one mine of each of these for the whole universe. They are a highly demanded stuff, and you cannot multiply the mining bases. Still you have enough to supply the galaxy. It is not different for the other resources.
quote:

checked on how many mines of each type I have, except for “rare” luxuries

Don't bother to check those, once again, it's 1 or 0, and you'll know when you find the planet.
quote:

way of ancients [...]might have an effect on costs
You have this info on your screen shot: several little effects on your economy, and a big one on your growth rate.


That’s incredible: the disparity in population we have here. I’ve got 3.3 times your population though you have 4.9 times the number of planets as I do. So, if I’m understanding you, basically a player only needs one mine of each resource/luxury type, and any more than this is redundant & adds an un-necessary maintenance cost (for the extra unnecessary mining station)? 1k of kaladian spice, loros fruit, or zentabia fluid at 100k bucks a pop is equivalent to 100k of polymer or steel at 1k bucks a pop? Even though there’s 20 years (game time) between us, I don’t think you’d be able to get even half my population. Also, my tax sliders were set very low (like 15%) so I could have much more money if I wanted, but I want to keep the population happy and not revolting.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
About mining bases efficiency: your mines are enough when they mine more than you spend. Simply look at the stocks of your mine: if it is maxed out, or nearly so, you don't need more. At all times the game keeps a portion of its cargo capability for each mine. By default, the low tech mines have a hold of 10 000 (20 cargo holds of 500 capacity each). So if they mine 1 resource, the maximum is 10 000, for 2 500, for 3, 3 333, and so on. Some time, the reserve are even a little higher than the maximum cargo hold... The planets seem to max out at 20 000 for each resource, whatever how many they mine. Yet you may sometime find a planet with more, possibly to meet construction needs.
Later in the game, when you have some trade going on, it may be harder to see because others empire ships may reserve some. They tend to love caslon... If a resource is not maxed everywhere, I think one maxed is enough: if they really need it, they will come and get it there. When so, only, will it be time to build more.
Studying my 8 mining bases (still with nearly 100 colonies) for the purpose of this discussion, I discover that I sell more stuff in the mines that are near the others empires (or even in the middle of them). It is quite obvious, but I did not think about that until now. They only buy fuel, though.
I don't know if anyone can confirm that, but I also note that aside fuel, the others empire seem to buy things only in my space ports, but do sometimes sell stuff in planets without space port (I can tell "sell" and not "buy" because the planets don't have any stock aside the one owned by the other empires). This may change the economy value of a well placed space port a lot!
quote:

technologies that were so expensive that you couldn’t get them even in a 1000 yr game
The dream value is not a low one, when it comes to a game! It's a little the idea of SupCom experimental units (how much I hate that name!), you rarely get to build them.
The problem with research in this game is, you get most of it through exploration. Ship debris are too big an advantage, especially seeing how lazy the AI is with exploration.
When you find one of these super weapon technologies that come with advanced shipyard techs, you're sure to build a capital ship that cannot be stopped by the silly destroyer of the enemy...


I’m a bit confused on this, how can I see which resources are being bought/sold from my mines or space ports? I noticed that you have a huge space port income (109k) but I only have (9k). You have 784 freighters to my 259, that’s about 3 to 1. Yet, you have 12.1 times as much “space port income” as I do. I don’t understand how this is calculated? What exactly is it that creates “space port” income, and is it even under the control of the player? It seems to me that you would get much more from foreign trade (given the higher number of freighters, colonies, and passenger ships you have; plus the fact that I’m at war and you’re not), but I have a much higher foreign trade income (122k) than you do (6k).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
I check out your empire summary, and it is full of very interesting things to compare. I'll post mine at the end of this post.
Before to say more, I must say that I have zentabian fluid and korribian spice, 2 very rare resources, like you.
I see you have fewer (36 against 167), but highly populated (163 320 against 48 210) colonies: Your game must have run for a lot longer time than mine. The date confirms it. 2790 for you, 2775 for me. If you got that way of the ancient thing for a while, it may explain the difference too, because of the population growth bonus.
The fact that you've choosen human has limited your expansion a lot, regarding your colonization capabilities.
I can see your mercantile fleet is a lot lighter than mine, but it does not fit with our number of worlds difference; I suppose this is because of your higher population, and perhaps cargo and hyperdrive technologies (I chose a fast rate of research speed). I can see your mining stations does not cost so much as I feared, compared to the merchants fleet. This merchant fleet makes a really big difference in my private sector, but it still is very profitable.
What is really stunning is your income is really very low compared to mine, not even a quarter more, if you keep in mind your tree times higher population.
The military costs are quite straightforward, given our military preferences.
I remark my resort income is really a lot higher than I thought. It's not that negligible...
So the question is: what makes such a big difference between your taxes and mine ? It can't be the mining stations. In fact, I think it is more your colonization capabilities. This also may be what makes you need more mining stations over colonizable stations. The colonies are very luxury hungry, especially when their development level is low; having a lot of small colonies with low development may generate a lot of trade, an so a lot of money.
And look at my space port income... It's more than a third of my revenues; I'm not sure if it is very stable, but I think it may be, given the number of colonizations I make.
You definitely need to capture some amphibian worlds to be able to colonize more of the galaxy.
I'm not sure if the war weariness you have has an impact, but I don't thing so (unless you lose lots of private stuff, which I assume you don't, given your military might).
In the end, the construction AI may not be that bad. Mining bases are the only way to be balance the lack of ability to colonize the various worlds with various luxury resources.
You may even have fewer strategic resources mining stations that you think.
(It's weird png files are not supported by the forum interface... You would have had easier to read screen shot)


Again that’s interesting the disparity between #planets and population .. what this tells me is that large numbers of colonies are not necessarily better (from an economic standpoint) than well-developed ones. Also, most of my tax settings are extremely low: ranging from 5% to 15% for all colonies except the home-world which had a 23% tax. The reason for this is I want to keep my people happy so they don’t revolt (primary reason). I could easily buy many more combat ships if I doubled my taxes to 30%, but the ultimate cost would probably be revolting-colonies, which I want to avoid at any cost (I’ll even end the war if it prevents a revolt should the war-weariness get out of hand).

Luckily for you, the huge cost of maintaining a large private fleet is not part of the “state” costs, or you would have real problems! But, I don’t really see what you’re getting for having such a large private sector fleet other than increased “space port” income? Of course, that might be worth it since your space port income is 109k to my 9k, although I’m making up for this in foreign trade 122k to your 6k. I don’t understand why “foreign trade” income goes to the “state”, and where exactly does “space port income” come from?

I did notice, looking over my ships & bases screen, that I had one resort base. Which is interesting because I didn’t build it .. one of my construction ships must have built it while on “auto”. Apparently it’s done nothing for me since I have 0k from resort income. After reading one of the other threads, it seems that resorts are very “iffy”. One guy had a resort built at a black hole (or something) and had dozens of passenger ships & got a resort income of 220k (if I remember correctly), another guy build a resort at the exact same scenic feature (in a different game) and had 0k resort income. It just seems to me resort income is something that cannot be counted upon and is completely 50/50.

You have a lot of small colonies generating trade using more luxuries, yet you’re foreign trade level is only 6% ? So, I’m not sure how you’re getting income from these numerous small colonies; it must be going to your “port income” somehow?

If I captured an “amphibian” world, would I get that colonization technology? If I knew that, I would’ve went way out of my way to capture an amphibian world earlier in the game!

I do have a lot of “war weariness”, but my taxes are set very low (15%) and (the last time I checked the colony screen) all my colonies had green happy faces with only two white (indifferent) faces. So, I’m sure the lack-of-taxes are going a long way to combat war weariness and (hopefully) revolt-risk.

It’s very interesting after all I’ve said (in my other posts) that with 9 construction ships (for some reason I thought I had 16) vs your 3 construction ships, in the end I have 80 mine ships and 16 mine bases to your 79 mine ships and 8 mining bases. Incredibly interesting, and it begs the question: what have my construction ships been doing the whole game if they’ve only build 7 more mines than you have despite having 3 times as many?? I think part of it can be explained with world-destroyer ships, I found two of these and they seem to take incredibly long to finish with construction ships. Another part is in the building of research stations, which “auto” does automatically (my research has always been at the cap). Also, at least one resort base was built on auto. And, as far as manual override, I’ve used construction ships to repair 3 or 4 of my damaged ships that were unable to use their engines after a battle. I found at least one “battlefield” site with numerous shipwrecks, and I used construction ships to repair a couple of these. Also, I manually built a couple of mines on rare luxury planets as well as a defense base and starbase there. I also manually built another defense base near a cluster of research stations near a black hole or nebulae.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan
Very interesting! My original post was aimed at creating a discussion to attempt to debunk the theory that building as many mining bases to claim as many resources as possible was a good strategy. I think we've done that now, because both of those screenshots are much healthier than my Empires where I built non-stop. The Automated AI clearly does not employ a non-stop building policy, it itself takes a conservative approach (not as conservative as Florestan though).

One thing I would say though is that you don't need as many Construction Ships as you have rk0123 to make those mines, one ship could have done that fine by your date, two ships would probably do that in the first 10 or 15 years of a game (when controlled manually).


You’re right, it doesn’t appear that I need to have as many construction ships as I do now. But, outside of their “economic” value in building mines, they’re also essential to build the “world destroyer” when you find them as well as repairing ships that can’t move. They can also build non-economic but important stuff like starbases and defense/monitoring bases.

The only reason I can think of why my first few games economy “tanked” and did not tank in later games (after I started building a second construction ship at start) was that I ran out of some resource and just one construction ship was not able to build a mine for that resource sufficiently quick enough at the start of the game. So, I still think that an extra construction ship at the start is useful (if you’re not completely on manual), but 9 construction ships 50 years into the game is unnecessary. Maybe 3 or 4 for the 50 year mark is plenty enough (to provide for reasonable construction ship “spacing”, “availability”, and “coverage” across the empire which would be fairly big at that point) .. it would stink if you only had one construction ship and it was clear across the galaxy when you need it to repair that key capital ship that’s 90% destroyed after some battle, or if you find the kaladdian spice moon but have to wait a year while that c-ship drags its butt across the galaxy from Timbuktu to east bumble. 14k maintenance cost is really not that much for a c-ship, that's only 4k more than an exploration ship, so an extra c-ship or two hanging around is not really that bad considering how extremely handy they are.

.. by the way, I started a new game using the new 1.6.0 version of the game and it started me off with 2 construction ships instead of 1 !!
This is very funny to me in the light of what we've been discussing in this thread.

< Message edited by rk0123msp@mindspring -- 7/31/2010 3:40:30 AM >


_____________________________

Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 18
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/1/2010 1:43:05 PM   
Florestan

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 6/5/2010
From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline
My game evolved a bit. In particular, I built a space port on a major recently captured planet that is surrounded by several foreign empires worlds. I get big commerce going on there; this world sells a lot of a quite rare resource, Rephidium ale(the black bottle), and sells so much caslon that I'm running out; The gas mining station I build around a nearby planet is selling a lot, too. I already had 5 other worlds with this ale, but without foreign trade on it, and without space port.
I guess having every luxury resource covered by at least a space port over a world producing it, is very important to maximize trade. A nearby world seem to have a big ale stock and many customers too, but does not produce it by itself. I suspect that until now, the ale was first shipped there before being shipped throughout the galaxy.
Parsing my freighters, I also noted that super rare resources tend to be shipped in very little quantities, compared to other luxury resources. The need for them is not so high. I have statued that if one mining place for them is enough, one mining place for any resource may be enough. I was probably wrong for the common luxury resources in big, underdeveloped galaxy.
Aside fuel, you can get all your mining from colonized worlds, providing you can colonize all worlds types. If you don't, one mining place might not be enough. Also, gas extractors are a lot more efficient than mining engines; it may explain why the need for fuel mines is quite light.
quote:

By the way: I just upgraded to version 1.0.6.0. [...] the saved game [...]is no longer available ..
I still use the beta file (I think they're the same, or we would have another beta), so I'm not 100% sure; I think your old save is still there, but in another folder. The installer creates a new directory every time you install a new version, and use this new directory to store your saves.Older version saves are not compatible with the new one, anyway.
quote:

basically a player only needs one mine of each resource/luxury type
It seems so, but when you first mine a new luxury resource, the mine may have difficulty to follow the demand for some time, a little like when Nintendo or sony release a new console, so you may want to build more than one. Also, some planets produce more, and I (and hopefully the constructor AI) choose rich resource spots.
quote:

1k of kaladian spice, loros fruit, or zentabia fluid at 100k bucks a pop is equivalent to 100k of polymer or steel at 1k?
I think they do.
quote:

I don’t think you’d be able to get even half my population.
quote:

Also, my tax sliders were set very low (like 15%) so I could have much more money if I wanted, but I want to keep the population happy and not revolting.
This is a big difference with my game. I let the computer manage the taxes, and I was not at war at the time of the screen shot, so had no happiness problem. It may explain the revenue difference. My well populated worlds tend to have very high tax rate, like 30, 40 or even 50%. This probably slows the growth rate quite a bit, as most of them are only at a 2% growth rate or so. The human also have a 14% natural growth rate were the Quameno I currently play with only have 9%. 3 years after my posted screenshot my population growed by nearly 50%, from 48 billions to 75, with 13 of this from taking an enemy home system. I may be able to reach a higher population than you think...
quote:

I’m making up for this in foreign trade 122k to your 6k
You seem to mistake "foreign trade" for "foreign trade bonuses". I'm not sure of the difference, but I'm currently trading with 12 empires, most of my transport is export, and I have only 12K of these. This line cannot be the total foreign trade.
quote:

where exactly does “space port income” come from?
I'm pretty sure it comes only from private ship building.
About resorts: They work only when build near highly populated worlds; Some species like them less, so they will tend to be bad customers for your resorts. It also seem that, the older they are, the more tourist visit them.
quote:

If I captured an “amphibian” world, would I get that colonization technology?
It is not a technology, but an ability of the amphibian people. On an amphibian world (of at least 100M people, since 1.0.6.0) you may build colony ship able to colonize ocean worlds, but it will not enable your other worlds and races to do so.

About war weariness: I think your low taxes do an excellent job about it. I avoid to have wars that linger to much, but the few revolts I got so far were only small worlds stopping paying taxes, except one time, a low population world that I captured around an enemy home world that switched back to its original empire once I emptied it of troops. I assume they change allegiance only when very, very unhappy.
It seems that war weariness fall to zero only days after peace has been made. I think you may declare peace for this purpose, and then declare another war very soon with zero weariness.
About construction ship occupation: Repairing derelict ships may take time, and building stations too, but I think your ship have been idling a lot... Note that you can send several ships on a single world destroyer, if you give your orders before someone actually started to build something. Maybe you can also do it with a Ctrl + right click.

quote:

how can I see which resources are being bought/sold from my mines or space ports?
It's only a guess, based on a one time check. First, when you look at a cargo hold in a space station, you can see a little flag on the left, saying to which empire it belongs to. I'm not sure how it works, though, and just discovered it may be trickier than I had imagined, but here is how I guess it works, and why:
You can see the Rsvd column, that shows the products that are reserved by a consumer (planet, space port, constructor ship, or, for the fuel, ship). Foreign products always are fully reserved, it seems. The displayed space port cargo is the same than the one of the world.
The game does not display who (which planet or constructing ship) reserved a cargo, only that it is reserved or not, and the empire ownership. I also have cargo without ownership. I'm not sure what this means. Sometimes, it is fully reserved, I guess it is independent worlds reservations. Sometimes, it is standard cargo. Perhaps cargo from a destroyed empire. One of my transports transports some of those, unreserved too.
In your empire, your freighters also tend to stock your worlds with the products they are likely to demand. This is especially the case for strategic resources, but it sometime happens to the luxuries too.
I can see that some of my ships (a lot of them, in fact) are transporting foreign goods.
Now, we have four cases:
- The reserved cargo is the only cargo available of its type
- There is unreserved cargo of this type left
- The very rare case where the reserved cargo is negative (on a world producing the resource, don't have a clue about this one)
- There is more cargo reserved than there is in stock (or there is not any in stock, but it is reserved).
I see two possibilities for the later case: either it means the missing cargo is on its way, or that the planet needs it and no one is shipping it yet, or both.
If the world has a lot of a resource, it hints that this world don't need more of it, and you can assume any amount reserved was reserved by another world.
Studying the ships leaving my Rephidium ale seller, I can see a ship going away with some yellow empire's reserved 1500 ale. On planet, I can see the yellow empire reserved some ale, but only 150. So I can deduct departed cargo is not displayed in a planet's reserves.
I also see several incoming empty ships, saying "transport Rephidium ale". Here are the rides for what is reserved. All these ships are from my empire, so I suspect that an empire's ship never buy cargo from others empires.
I found a world that had 132 megalos nuts reserved, 80 in stock, and 52 incoming in a freighter, that fitted the 52 reserved but absent cargo. Reserved but not in stock cargo seem to be at least inbound.
Reserved cargo with no unreserved cargo may be what the world has "in his plate". It is currently consuming it, but is not finished yet. It may result of the process of transforming luxury resource into development level.

So, any reserved luxury resource may be either reserved by
- The world it is on (currently consuming the resource)
- A world that purchased it for consumption(and a freighter is, or will soon be coming to get it)
- A space port that want to pile some of it up for future trade.

If there is no unreserved cargo of a type, but some reserved, we can assume it was not sold away, and is being consumed. There probably are exception, but I think it's a pretty good guess. The same seem true if there is very little unreserved cargo and some reserved one.
If the world is producing the good he won't buy any. Any reserved amount will likely be some off world order, but may also be local consumption.
If the product we are speaking about is an other empire's, we can apply the same guesses. This way, you know what they sell you, and what you're selling to them. You can also check the incoming foreign ships, that seem to only sell to you.
The annoying thing about this is that, when you look at a cargo selling your stuff, the cargo will be painted to the buyer's colors, and the moment this cargo will be delivered, the other empire, would it be manned by another player, would be seen bearing your flag instead of his.

(in reply to rk0123msp@mindspring)
Post #: 19
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/1/2010 9:17:46 PM   
Merker

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
You have a very interesting thread going on here, and if I'm not too intruding I would like to post my own input on this matter:

I have discovered that having all resources isn't necessarily the way to a good income. In my main game(actually my 2nd DW game, since I've only just bought it ) I had real trouble after a war with some rat people and my economy was in the red. I couldn't decommission my fleet since I had an enemy waiting to declare war at any time and my infrastructure was a mess(as in dead). I didn't have a lot of income to begin with but at least it was in the white. Anyway, my economy suddenly corrected itself just before I got another war on my hands, and I think it was because of some space ports.

I believe that was the case because after I read your thread here I got an idea to build lots of small spaceports at my colonies( they weren't bringing a lot of tax income anyway). I also had some free trade agreements with 2-3 friendly empires. After a few months and a resort base my income went up by at least 50-80K income. I've kept the space port building up and now most of my colonies are well developed, my trade brings me huge money, I have trade agreements with most of the races and my fleet keeps growing.

Here's an idea of my empire status:
http://img204.imageshack.us/i/20100801221415.jpg/

I have space ports at most of my border colonies and I have discovered I need to make them a lot bigger to accommodate the amount of traffic, which on average is something like this:
http://img338.imageshack.us/i/20100731152629.jpg/

As you can see I keep building expensive capships and it doesn't affect my income much. A lot of money going into research as well.

As a comparison I will add a picture of a competing empire, that has over 180 colonies. They even have all 3 of the rare resources, and my much smaller empire can almost match their income. So a well developed trade infrastructure is crucial in this game, which means a peaceful empire can become more powerful than a warring state eventually. Note that the Kestus industries empire has been trade sanctioned by most empires except me, so they don't do a lot of trade:
http://img708.imageshack.us/i/20100801221818.jpg/

By comparison, the status of my empire:
http://img72.imageshack.us/i/20100801221858.jpg/

As for war weariness, it never has been an issue for me, especially after discovering the 'way of the ancients' government form. And i've been almost constantly at war with one empire or another because of my mistake to offer some measly empire a protectorate . I only had one recently captured colony rebel but that was in a neutral empires territory, so I believe the proximity to that peaceful empire mattered a lot here. Then again I never took tax rating off auto, and it seems to be doing a pretty good job at keeping my citizens happy. I also have a lot of resort bases, could that contribute to the general empire happiness? Or does fleet power make a planet less likely to rebel? The newly conquered worlds seem to be pretty happy and haven't caused any trouble.

It seems my empire is like 4-5th place in terms of strategic value. Any idea what determines strategic value? I have the strongest fleet and healthiest economy but low strategic value...

< Message edited by Merker -- 8/1/2010 9:19:59 PM >

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 20
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/1/2010 11:23:43 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline
To be honest I have no idea what determines strategic value.  I assume it is something to do with the resources you have, like for example if your enemy invaded your planets, how much would they gain from the resources you have on your planets.  But, just guessing.

(in reply to Merker)
Post #: 21
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/2/2010 1:15:08 PM   
Florestan

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 6/5/2010
From: Montpellier, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Merker
You have a very interesting thread going on here, and if I'm not too intruding I would like to post my own input on this matter:
Thank you, and welcome!
quote:

I need to make [my space ports] a lot bigger to accommodate the amount of traffic

On this picture it seems that a lot of this impressive traffic is made of foreign ships; if my earlier suppositions are correct, it would mean that your people buy a lot, thus they need a lot that your empire don't provide.
But it seem that the space port on this picture is building several major ships. When I build something big in my space ports, I get a lot of traffic for the building material from my space ships. But I usually make them in my core systems, away from foreigners, and often, in my only medium space port (the one I got in the beginning of the game) to use its building speed. But I never built that many ships at once, with at least two big capital ships.
And a lot of them may be private ships, as I can see 22 of them are waiting. The idea that come to me is, perhaps you had so few spaceport that your private economy was unable to build the ships it needed, crippling your economy? So, when you started your trade agreement policy (I'm not hope "policy" is the right word...), your private economy hired the only ships available to them to bring the needed resources, including building material: the foreign ones. So, you get the taxes anyway, even if from foreigners, the money comes in, and everybody is happy... And you'll have your own merchant fleet in some time.
In my game, I noticed I have very few foreign freighters coming to me, and one of my policies is to get every resource, mainly from colonizing. This makes that trade agreement mean to sell a lot, and not really buy anything.
quote:

[this] competing empire [...] has over 180 colonies [and] all 3 of the rare resources, and my much smaller empire can almost match their income.
It may indeed be the lack of trade agreement that has this effect.
quote:

a peaceful empire can become more powerful than a warring state eventually.

I tend to be peaceful, and to rapidly have a lot more colonies and population then the AI empires. But I know I should be a bit more aggressive when it comes to taking a world with a race that would give me new colonization capabilities.
quote:

As for war weariness, it never has been an issue for me

I think it mainly has an effect over the development of the colonies. IIRC, the happier the colony, the faster its development; moreover it seem that having troop on a planet tend to lower the revolt risks.
quote:

could [resort bases] contribute to the general empire happiness?
I don't think so, because I've never seen this in the population sub-screen, that details what make people happy or unhappy.
quote:

Any idea what determines strategic value?

There is a value column in the colonies screen. I'm pretty sure it contributes a lot to the strategic value. Very populated worlds are tagged with high values. I guess that mining stations and all kinds of bases do to, as they are very expensive to buy from other empires, and that they mark your territory.


(in reply to Merker)
Post #: 22
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/2/2010 8:45:08 PM   
Merker

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

his picture it seems that a lot of this impressive traffic is made of foreign ships; if my earlier suppositions are correct, it would mean that your people buy a lot, thus they need a lot that your empire don't provide.
But it seem that the space port on this picture is building several major ships. When I build something big in my space ports, I get a lot of traffic for the building material from my space ships. But I usually make them in my core systems, away from foreigners, and often, in my only medium space port (the one I got in the beginning of the game) to use its building speed. But I never built that many ships at once, with at least two big capital ships.
And a lot of them may be private ships, as I can see 22 of them are waiting. The idea that come to me is, perhaps you had so few spaceport that your private economy was unable to build the ships it needed, crippling your economy? So, when you started your trade agreement policy (I'm not hope "policy" is the right word...), your private economy hired the only ships available to them to bring the needed resources, including building material: the foreign ones. So, you get the taxes anyway, even if from foreigners, the money comes in, and everybody is happy... And you'll have your own merchant f


Oh, those weren't ships under construction, but ships being refitted to the latest designs. I told the main fleet to do some refit to the new size 1000 ships and of all the empire they chose this measly spaceport on the edge of the empire, without me having any possibility to cancel that action afterward. The spaceport had all the materials, but the construction with the old yards took years, literally. The fleet was eventually finished... about 3 years later . However, this was just one space port with that kind of traffic. Another one, a few systems away, again on the border, had the same level. So I guess it was pure trade, as in the expansion planner my empire doesn't need any more resources apparently, and all the nearby empires have a 'there's a fair amount of trade between us' in the diplomacy screen as well as a large profit in the foreign trade income.

quote:

perhaps you had so few spaceport that your private economy was unable to build the ships it needed, crippling your economy? So, when you started your trade agreement policy (I'm not hope "policy" is the right word...), your private economy hired the only ships available


Yes, your guess is the same as mine in terms of spaceports. I only started the 'space port expansion program' after my economy suddenly went into the white. And my empire AI doesn't seem to be building space ports so I believe trade with the other empires is the factor here, especially since in that period, the empires grew closer in terms of borders, and some mingled with mine. After the war I had like 5-6 spaceports in total, about 16-17 colonies, and I had lost at least 3 bases that I remember of. I have the save before and after the war if you're interested to see the effects, and also after the sudden recovery and more recent saves.

My colonies have also developed a lot faster with the growing number of spaceports, and most of them have over 50% culture now.

quote:

It may indeed be the lack of trade agreement that has this effect.


Indeed, even now, when I'm at 90 colonies, that empire has 199 colonies and about the same income as before, only 2 trade agreements(me and another empire that has been in a constant war and is weakening in terms of infrastructure) and the rest trading sanctions. Plus they refuse to trade the 3 super rare resources so I believe that's a big mistake. Instead they focus on killing 1 colony empires.

quote:


There is a value column in the colonies screen. I'm pretty sure it contributes a lot to the strategic value. Very populated worlds are tagged with high values. I guess that mining stations and all kinds of bases do to, as they are very expensive to buy from other empires, and that they mark your territory.


Hmm probably. I always figured it had something to do with position, because an empire even smaller than mine had a greater strategic value, but the colonies more closely packed together( you can notice the Kiadian empire in one of the diplomacy screen pictures, it has a higher status bar than my empire, but they only have like 25-30 colonies and about 7-10k fleet power; that bar is strategy value status). I don't know if you can see in those screenshots but my empire is kind of spread all over the place(not my fault I found few colonies ). The teekans have the greatest strategic value but as seen in the pictures they have their systems in their own part of the galaxy. I believe that might be a contributing factor.



< Message edited by Merker -- 8/2/2010 9:07:33 PM >

(in reply to Florestan)
Post #: 23
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/3/2010 12:03:23 PM   
Merker

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
I can now confirm this now: the very rare resources(korrabian spice, zentabia fluid, loros fruit) only bring lots of money when traded with others. To the owner empire they help develop the colonies and bring some significant profit, but their potential value is maximized through trade with others. If the Teekans had traded these 3 resources they would be swimming in money, literally. And through foreign trade the resources eventually get distributed to all of the owner empire's colonies a lot better than just with one's own ships. Half of the 200 colonies that empire has are undeveloped since they are scattered far and wide, despite the fact they have the rare resources. That empire just refuses to trade the super rare stuff and thus loses a lot.



(in reply to Merker)
Post #: 24
RE: Private Economy Questions - 8/3/2010 11:45:53 PM   
rk0123msp@mindspring


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/23/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florestan
quote:

how can I see which resources are being bought/sold from my mines or space ports?


It's only a guess, based on a one time check. First, when you look at a cargo hold in a space station, you can see a little flag on the left, saying to which empire it belongs to. I'm not sure how it works, though, and just discovered it may be trickier than I had imagined, but here is how I guess it works, and why:
You can see the Rsvd column, that shows the products that are reserved by a consumer (planet, space port, constructor ship, or, for the fuel, ship). Foreign products always are fully reserved, it seems. The displayed space port cargo is the same than the one of the world.
The game does not display who (which planet or constructing ship) reserved a cargo, only that it is reserved or not, and the empire ownership. I also have cargo without ownership. I'm not sure what this means. Sometimes, it is fully reserved, I guess it is independent worlds reservations. Sometimes, it is standard cargo. Perhaps cargo from a destroyed empire. One of my transports transports some of those, unreserved too.
In your empire, your freighters also tend to stock your worlds with the products they are likely to demand. This is especially the case for strategic resources, but it sometime happens to the luxuries too.
I can see that some of my ships (a lot of them, in fact) are transporting foreign goods.
Now, we have four cases:
- The reserved cargo is the only cargo available of its type
- There is unreserved cargo of this type left
- The very rare case where the reserved cargo is negative (on a world producing the resource, don't have a clue about this one)
- There is more cargo reserved than there is in stock (or there is not any in stock, but it is reserved).
I see two possibilities for the later case: either it means the missing cargo is on its way, or that the planet needs it and no one is shipping it yet, or both.
If the world has a lot of a resource, it hints that this world don't need more of it, and you can assume any amount reserved was reserved by another world.
Studying the ships leaving my Rephidium ale seller, I can see a ship going away with some yellow empire's reserved 1500 ale. On planet, I can see the yellow empire reserved some ale, but only 150. So I can deduct departed cargo is not displayed in a planet's reserves.
I also see several incoming empty ships, saying "transport Rephidium ale". Here are the rides for what is reserved. All these ships are from my empire, so I suspect that an empire's ship never buy cargo from others empires.
I found a world that had 132 megalos nuts reserved, 80 in stock, and 52 incoming in a freighter, that fitted the 52 reserved but absent cargo. Reserved but not in stock cargo seem to be at least inbound.
Reserved cargo with no unreserved cargo may be what the world has "in his plate". It is currently consuming it, but is not finished yet. It may result of the process of transforming luxury resource into development level.

So, any reserved luxury resource may be either reserved by
- The world it is on (currently consuming the resource)
- A world that purchased it for consumption(and a freighter is, or will soon be coming to get it)
- A space port that want to pile some of it up for future trade.

If there is no unreserved cargo of a type, but some reserved, we can assume it was not sold away, and is being consumed. There probably are exception, but I think it's a pretty good guess. The same seem true if there is very little unreserved cargo and some reserved one.
If the world is producing the good he won't buy any. Any reserved amount will likely be some off world order, but may also be local consumption.
If the product we are speaking about is an other empire's, we can apply the same guesses. This way, you know what they sell you, and what you're selling to them. You can also check the incoming foreign ships, that seem to only sell to you.
The annoying thing about this is that, when you look at a cargo selling your stuff, the cargo will be painted to the buyer's colors, and the moment this cargo will be delivered, the other empire, would it be manned by another player, would be seen bearing your flag instead of his.



That's a very good analysis of the spaceport & cargo holds. I've looked at my own cargo now in greater detail, and I'm trying to figure it out based upon your analysis above. I decided to start a comprehensive AAR on a newly started game, which will probably take me a year given my slow game-playing pace, but I plan on making my first 4 year installment in the AAR folder tonight if you're interested in reading it. The last post I make will cover my spaceport & cargo, about 4years into the game and four months or so after making my first AI trade agreement. Although I have 0k in foreign trade revanue, there is clearly foreign trade going on as I have items that I dont mine in my own empire (which must've been gotten from other AIs).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Merker

I can now confirm this now: the very rare resources(korrabian spice, zentabia fluid, loros fruit) only bring lots of money when traded with others. To the owner empire they help develop the colonies and bring some significant profit, but their potential value is maximized through trade with others. If the Teekans had traded these 3 resources they would be swimming in money, literally. And through foreign trade the resources eventually get distributed to all of the owner empire's colonies a lot better than just with one's own ships. Half of the 200 colonies that empire has are undeveloped since they are scattered far and wide, despite the fact they have the rare resources. That empire just refuses to trade the super rare stuff and thus loses a lot.


This is good to know. So basically, you can only make good use of "rare" luxury items if you have foreign trade agreements going on with other AI.

_____________________________

Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

(in reply to Merker)
Post #: 25
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