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Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 5:33:05 AM   
CapAndGown


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After considerable testing I have found that Japanese carrier based AC will not launch a naval strike mission from 11 hexes (and probably greater).

Using the Coral Sea scenario as a test bed, I put Judy's on the Shokaku and Zuikaku. I set them to use drop tanks. I also put A6M3a's on the ships and set them to escort using drop tanks. The Judy's were set to a maximum of 14 hex range. The US CVs were positioned 12 hexes south of Shortlands while the Japanese were positioned 1 hex south giving a distance of 11 hexes between TFs. Over many turns of running the test, not once did the Japanese launch an attack even though they had spotted the allied TF.

To test that the drop tanks were working and also to see that weather was not the culprit in preventing a launch, I set a secondary mission of attacking the port at Port Moresby. In the afternoon phase the Judy's would attack Port Moresby which was 13 hexes away. They did not attack the spotted allied CVs which were only 11 hexes away.

I would like to know if it is hard coded that naval strikes from carrier aircraft are not possible beyond a certain range, one that is less than the range of the AC.
Post #: 1
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 6:18:59 AM   
michaelm75au


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There are a few items that are in the original WITP that were carried over and not changed apart from the map scale:
1. There is code that limits the strike range to that flown in 6 hours (based on cruise speed).
2. Limits carrier launched strikes to 7 and 8 respectively for Allied and Japanese.

These limits are used when deciding the best TF to attack.


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RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 6:32:56 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are a few items that are in the original WITP that were carried over and not changed apart from the map scale:
1. There is code that limits the strike range to that flown in 6 hours (based on cruise speed).
2. Limits carrier launched strikes to 7 and 8 respectively for Allied and Japanese.

These limits are used when deciding the best TF to attack.



Somehow I doubt this will be changed, yet there are some problems with this:
a) LBA making naval attacks is not limited in this way
b) this limitation makes the battle of the Philippines Sea impossible. It was basic to the Japanese plan that they be able to use the superior range of their AC in order to strike at the Americans. This limitation nerf's the one advantage the Japanese have in later war carrier combat and makes the superior range of their AC basically pointless.

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Post #: 3
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 6:47:59 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are a few items that are in the original WITP that were carried over and not changed apart from the map scale:
1. There is code that limits the strike range to that flown in 6 hours (based on cruise speed).
2. Limits carrier launched strikes to 7 and 8 respectively for Allied and Japanese.

These limits are used when deciding the best TF to attack.



Michael,

A clarification - are 7 and 8 hexes the limits before adjusting the scale for AE (40 mile hexes), or after adjusting?

As you say it predates you, so just wondering - do you happen to know what was the rationale for such a limit in the first place? I can understand a 6-hour thing as pilots had to then land on a carrier, but the distance limit is baffling.

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RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 6:55:50 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are a few items that are in the original WITP that were carried over and not changed apart from the map scale:
1. There is code that limits the strike range to that flown in 6 hours (based on cruise speed).
2. Limits carrier launched strikes to 7 and 8 respectively for Allied and Japanese.

These limits are used when deciding the best TF to attack.



Michael,

A clarification - are 7 and 8 hexes the limits before adjusting the scale for AE (40 mile hexes), or after adjusting?

As you say it predates you, so just wondering - do you happen to know what was the rationale for such a limit in the first place? I can understand a 6-hour thing as pilots had to then land on a carrier, but the distance limit is baffling.


I thought the answer was clear: it relates to the cruising speed of the aircraft, i.e. how far can they travel in 6 hours

EDIT: On second thought, maybe these are not the same issue.

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Post #: 5
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 7:21:05 AM   
michaelm75au


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are a few items that are in the original WITP that were carried over and not changed apart from the map scale:
1. There is code that limits the strike range to that flown in 6 hours (based on cruise speed).
2. Limits carrier launched strikes to 7 and 8 respectively for Allied and Japanese.

These limits are used when deciding the best TF to attack.



Michael,

A clarification - are 7 and 8 hexes the limits before adjusting the scale for AE (40 mile hexes), or after adjusting?

As you say it predates you, so just wondering - do you happen to know what was the rationale for such a limit in the first place? I can understand a 6-hour thing as pilots had to then land on a carrier, but the distance limit is baffling.

The 7 and 8 are the new scale range.
In stock it was 4 and 5 respectively from memory.

I only suspect that it might have something to do with the fact that planes flying from carriers logically wouldn't be able to fly the same distances that they could if launched from a land base. Carrying a full load of fuel and ordnance would impact ability to take off safely.


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Post #: 6
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 9:46:10 AM   
Sardaukar


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I think it's also limitation with available daylight. It was quite dangerous to try to recover strike in darkness, even when it could be launched before dawn. It was done, if absolutely necessary, but not recommended.

6h flight time both ways is 12h..add to that the time in combat and time used to recover planes and you are pretty much running out of average daylight. Also CV TFs are constantly moving, which makes finding home base even trickier. So I think it's reasonable limitation.

Land bases should not suffer from same limitation, since they do not move, making it inherently easier to find back. Plus landing on air base is lot easier at night compared to carrier deck.

We could of course wish for "override limit"-button and accept potentially massive ops losses in return...

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 7/11/2010 9:47:14 AM >


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RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 2:04:11 PM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think it's also limitation with available daylight. It was quite dangerous to try to recover strike in darkness, even when it could be launched before dawn. It was done, if absolutely necessary, but not recommended.

6h flight time both ways is 12h..add to that the time in combat and time used to recover planes and you are pretty much running out of average daylight. Also CV TFs are constantly moving, which makes finding home base even trickier. So I think it's reasonable limitation.



The Zero A6M3a has a cruise speed of 230 MPH. The Judy D4Y1 has a cruise speed of 265 MPH. So a flight of three hours out and three hours back would be almost 700 statute miles. I am not sure what that is in nautical miles, but it is at least 15 hexes.

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Post #: 8
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 2:24:43 PM   
Sardaukar


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I think GG placed the limit per phase, which seems to be 6 hrs available.  Based on those values, D4Y1 could fly 690 nautical miles in 3 hours cruise speed, which is 17.5 hexes. I don't remember it's range right now though. But based on that, it should be able to strike further than 8 hexes.

BTW, I just had US CV strike going out to 8 hexes...so it seems that Allied limit is not 7 hexes but 8 too. Unless I misscounted, of course, but I am pretty sure it was 8 hexes.

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Post #: 9
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 7/11/2010 6:12:55 PM   
michaelm75au


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Good experience and morale can push the group's max range out a random one or two hex for an attack.
This means that sometimes an attack will take place slightly outside the expected range of the aircraft.


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Post #: 10
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 4/30/2016 8:20:05 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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Bump

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 4/30/2016 8:22:14 PM >


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Post #: 11
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 12/7/2019 10:43:43 AM   
Enforcer

 

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this is ridiculous.. there are of course examples of some night landings of course as well as missions off carriers lasting more than 6 hours even some float plane search missions..

was this ever corrected?

< Message edited by Enforcer -- 12/7/2019 10:45:56 AM >


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Post #: 12
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 12/7/2019 11:57:22 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Enforcer

this is ridiculous.. there are of course examples of some night landings of course as well as missions off carriers lasting more than 6 hours even some float plane search missions..

was this ever corrected?


Nothing to correct.

Its been in the game forever.

Live with it.



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Post #: 13
RE: Strike range for CV AC - 12/7/2019 8:37:37 PM   
BBfanboy


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If you set a patrol aircraft squadron to patrol a given quadrant (by adjusting the patrol degrees) and distance (by setting the number of hexes out to patrol) you will see that the patrol often extends a little further than the hexes set. This is because following hexes can result in inefficient zig-zags but the aircraft ignores hexes and flies a direct line for a given number of hours and minutes. This is what the computer plots as the patrol zone. Use the Z key while on the squadron's base to see the zones set.

The squadron "Aircraft Data" will tell you the number of hours and minutes the aircraft can normally stay aloft. As MichaelM posted, pilots with very high experience might be able to nurse a little extra range out of their aircraft because they manage their fuel usage better (things like adjusting the trim tab settings as fuel is used up and the aircraft C of G moves forward).

One of the reasons carrier admirals would be extremely reluctant to send out max possible range strikes is that the carrier would move a considerable distance while it was gone. To ensure the aircraft could find the carrier again would mean broadcasting position, which the enemy could pick up (homing beacons are limited by direct line, and distant strikes would be over the horizon). If you can't get your aircraft in the same general part of the ocean they'll never find the carrier before running out of fuel.

In the game, max range strikes/patrols mean much higher ops losses. Use max range sparingly and only when the target is really juicy ...

EDIT: Meant to mention - assembling a strike in the air while launching one aircraft at a time is going to use up time and fuel. Only patrols should be able to take off and proceed max distance.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 12/7/2019 8:40:43 PM >


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RE: Strike range for CV AC - 12/7/2019 11:30:13 PM   
LLT0407

 

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Thank you for YOUR response BBfanboy.. YOUR response in much appreciated

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