Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: A suggestion to Matrix

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: A suggestion to Matrix Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 11:23:08 PM   
Patience


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/15/2010
From: Colorado
Status: offline
Agreed,  The last time a survey was done on the subject of the importance of the AI.  overwhelmingly the majority of gamers wanted an AI,  A really good AI.  I know for a fact I will not play a game for long if it lacks an AI.  I can see Numdydar's point about getting it out but this would likely disillusion the majority of folks that want this game.  So we all get to wait.

_____________________________

"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 31
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 12:00:35 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 32
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 1:58:17 AM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

I need to point out that this project is not CWiF it is MWiF. ADG clearly states on their website that MWiF is a new game based on the code from CWiF. This is the same as having a Game v1.0 and 5 years later Game v2.0. Therefore, let me reiterate MWiF has never been stopped or restarted. I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.

I do agree with your statement that reaction to releasing a game with or without an AI is pure speculation at best. Without specific metrics to back up statements, mine included it is not possible to truly know. I would suggest people familiarize themselves with who has beta access and who does not. You will find the beta team can not discuss specifics but we can have opinion based on a bit more fact than speculation. Although we do make mistakes at times we will clearly retract and correct our statements. However Steve usually beats us to that.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 33
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 1:58:46 AM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
I don't think anyone in their right mind could ever say MWIF was "rushed out the door." With or without AI.

And, to be perfectly honest, the AI will not be a challenge for anyone but an absolute beginner anyway. It will perform the function of a tutorial assistant in reality. So, that means the other forms of playing the game will be more important and should receive proportionately more attention. The game should not be delayed to develope an AI. That should be an add on for a separate price a couple years after the initial release. ($75.00 for the initial release and $50-75.00 for the AI a couple years later.) I know this is expensive, but look at the reality of the development in terms of effort and time. And, with two solid years of work, the AI just might be excellent. It is worth the cost in my opinion and provides a nod to reality.

I fully support Steve and appreciate all his hard work. I also tip my hat to all of those who have chipped in and helped out so far. Keep up the good work. It is a labor of love.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 34
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 2:08:46 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.


Stole the words right out of my mouth as always your words are enlightning the new me

Bo

Bo you sure make me laugh a lot. Have a great day!

The real problem Abj is that I meant it

Bo

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 35
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 2:15:12 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

I need to point out that this project is not CWiF it is MWiF. ADG clearly states on their website that MWiF is a new game based on the code from CWiF. This is the same as having a Game v1.0 and 5 years later Game v2.0. Therefore, let me reiterate MWiF has never been stopped or restarted. I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.

I do agree with your statement that reaction to releasing a game with or without an AI is pure speculation at best. Without specific metrics to back up statements, mine included it is not possible to truly know. I would suggest people familiarize themselves with who has beta access and who does not. You will find the beta team can not discuss specifics but we can have opinion based on a bit more fact than speculation. Although we do make mistakes at times we will clearly retract and correct our statements. However Steve usually beats us to that.

Good lord Abj now your getting sickening Your going to drive me back to the other Bo remember him and you would not want that now would you, keep going I think Numdydar is ready to collapse and surrender to your infinite wisdom

Bo


(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 36
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 5:51:17 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7980
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

From my own experience, many projects have gone into failure simply because no one did not want to drop features in order to make the project be successful. Being afraid of what might happen is ususlly a poor way to make decisions (and not just in game design, lol).

Given the lenght of time this has been in development, restarted, stopped, etc. I would think that putting something out that looked good and played well without an AI would indicate more of a success than a failure. An AI could always be added later too. Also just because Matrix and Shannon have stated over and over again that MWiF will have an AI, does not mean that they should blindly follow this course without at least exploring other options. That is why I statred this thread to let them know that there are people that would buy an AI-less MWiF. In other words, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

On way to settle this issue for real, would be for Matrix to offer MWiF without an AI as a pre-order and see how many would sign up. I know I would and I suspect that many others here would too.

The bottom line is Matrix knows what they are contractualy obligated to do, knows what the expected sales numbers would be, etc. Without having the same information they have, all we can do is speculate and make suggestions. I want this game to be as successful as the next person here. However, I also do not want Matrix to feel that they have to blindly follow a path when other options exist either. Especially when that path may lead over a cliff

My opinion is that there is a lot of merit in your suggestion. I would buy it without an AI.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 37
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 7:34:04 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1974
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view )



You can be sure people would not buy it. Mainly because there are alternatives for free in the Web.

However, I have some friends who are WIF players, and myself, and we don't even go to such websites. If we need to play without AI, better do it at home with dice and counters.

To buy a game just for the graphics is for no-brains. That's the shi-t many of the supposed "strategy" games developers have been trying to sell us for years (a real scam). "O, look at this wonderful strategy game, it has wonderful colours, and marvellous sprites, the visual art is historically accurate as well as fancyful..!" unfortunately the AI is completely dumb...'


As for the business world and the cash flows, I cannot say but that selling unended products like Paradox and Ageod use to do, and up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 6/15/2010 7:48:00 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 38
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 1:22:18 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 2872
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts.


I can appreciate that the AI scripting may be "almost done". But as was stated previously, the game mechanics must be finalized and remaining bugs resolved before fully exercising the AI and verifying it works. I have not seen any mention of AI-vs-AI gameplay, which would be necessary for quickly completing many campaign games and analyzing AI behaviors. Trying to do this manually could take months or years. Perhaps this is already in progress and some fine-tuning has been made? This would be encouraging news.

quote:

As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI... This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons.


I agree there's no point arguing about business decisions that have already been made and are proceeding. Decision Games made their business decision to release computer wargames such as WIE without AI, fine. So what? Matrix Games has broader priorities and that's fine too.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 39
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 1:40:51 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
to Bo

While I completely disagree about releasing the game without an AI from Numdydar. He makes a valid point that we are all speculating. However some of us speculate with extensive experience and knowledge of the computer industry. Others speculate from their beta team knowledge of MWiF. Some peculate with a background from both of the former items. Still, others are just making wild guesses. I do not know anybody's background and do not want to place them in any of these categories (except we know the beta team). However I feel confident in my knowledge, background, experience, and beta access.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 40
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 3:30:25 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

to Bo

While I completely disagree about releasing the game without an AI from Numdydar. He makes a valid point that we are all speculating. However some of us speculate with extensive experience and knowledge of the computer industry. Others speculate from their beta team knowledge of MWiF. Some peculate with a background from both of the former items. Still, others are just making wild guesses. I do not know anybody's background and do not want to place them in any of these categories (except we know the beta team). However I feel confident in my knowledge, background, experience, and beta access.

To abj agreed, thats why you are an Matrix elite guard and I am just a Matrix hero I am starting to ache for some of the dirty nasty battles that we all used to have this one is so mundane, Where is Crussdaddy, hiding again when we need him to say something, anything

Bo

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 41
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 4:51:56 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
He's still around.


_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 42
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 4:59:24 PM   
Patience


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/15/2010
From: Colorado
Status: offline
It is obvious that everyone posting here wants the game released.  The AI is important even to those that initially may buy the game without it in hopes that they get a patch.  Personally I hate the idea that i might need to DL a patch for anything after buying it.  Financially it makes more sense to wait for a fully functional version of the game and be successful than to rush a half finished product to market only for a few bucks profit. It doesn't make sense. There is a huge investment in time and money in the development of this game and making sure it is as close to perfect as humanly possible.  I understand the frustration of those who have waited for a very long time for this masterpiece to come to market, after all i'm one of them.  I've been watching this development since ALPHA CWIF and recently started to actively post here.

I honestly can't say how much longer we all will have to wait and I know for my self that even though I may become frustrated at times with the length of time it is taking. I remind myself of the complex game mechanics and the daunting task it is to put this into a format that actually works on my PC and works well.

If the game is released as a ground breaking, mind blowing achievement it will be a top seller and may actually go down as one of those games that all others are measured against, but for it to be that it needs all the bells and whistles, it needs the dedicated support of those who can seriously contribute to these ends.

I am not a programmer or anything like that. So I am limited as to what I may be able to contribute when it come to the AI.  I have read many of the AI post as Steve suggested I do and I wish there was something more I could do to help.  For now I am and always will be a tremendous supporter of this endeavor.

Here's to you Steve!!!
Keep pluggin away.



_____________________________

"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 43
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 5:14:07 PM   
MajorDude


Posts: 201
Joined: 1/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.



While selling unfinished products is not really a good thing to do, pretty much across the board, the computer game publishing world has been doing this for at least a decade now.

Basically gone are the days when major producers hold games until they are absolutely 100% perfect before launch. Why? Three main reasons:

1 - It's way too expensive,

2 - Competition - if you don't get yours out quick enough, somebody else will make a cheap look-alike game and mess up your niche and marketing,

3 - Technology - get it done and out there before technology changes too much and leaves your game in the dust.


I have participated in numerous betas now, and continue to do so. Companies can no longer afford to have every type of machine, graphics card, etc. in house for testing, so they push it out in beta form for a lot of this kind of testing: stress, load, graphics, glitches, exploits, holes, etc.


Developing a good ai for a game is a huge undertaking. Small games have it easier, but how many times do you read reviews dissing the ai even in small games that are pretty close to getting it right.

The bigger the game, the grander the scale, the harder it is to write ai scripts that can react to all the possible 'human' events without it becoming too predictable hence boring. At the same time, you have to be careful not to give so much leeway that the ai starts to look silly or stupid.


It amazes me when I sometimes read comments players make about the ai in games. It often sounds like a sibling chiding another, much younger sibling "for playing like a doof". Yet, as soon as a game comes out with a really good, tough ai, how many of those same players do you see dissing it "because the ai is way too strong" or "the ai must be cheating because...". I truly believe there are some players out there that may not realize that what they want may not be possible, simply because what they want would beat them very often, and they are not going to accept that.


Now you took a stab at the TW series. It is not without its flaws, for sure. But to call the series "despicable", is a little over the top imho. The TW series has found a niche and a large following in the gaming community. The series is basically improving with each and every iteration. The ai is getting better and better with each new title.

Their latest announcement, Shogun 2 TW, has the ambitious schedule to program the ai using "Sun Tzu’s principles in the Art of War, the Artificial Intelligence constantly analyses its situation and reacts to your every move with greater precision and variety."


The people at CA, who make the TW series, admit themselves that the ai is the single, most difficult nut to crack in each and every one of their games. They aim high, they strive to get it as right as possible, and they admit they aren't always able to get it perfect.

So, just like almost all game publishers today, they test, then they patch. While it used to take a very long time for the pacth to come out, they now come out in almost record time, especially for small things that are easy to fix.


You know, it kind of makes me wonder how some may have forgotten board gaming BEFORE computers. Guys, you would not believe how many board games did NOT come out perfect the first time. We all lived by the famous word, ERRATA. Almost every board game came with a list of ERRATA that included:

1 - counter misprints, or missing counters,

2 - rule misprints,

3 - deployment misprints,

4 - rules omissions and deletions,

5 - and the dreaded "map misprints, omissions, and deletions" that required you to take out the pens and markers to fix it.


Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies involve crafting. Game publishers like CA for the TW series strive to get it as right as possible. It's not always perfect, but the types of games they make are the hardest to program for an ai opponent. We, as members of this hobby, can try to help to make these games better and help to give insight as to how we think ai can be improved.

Calling the TW series "despicable" does not hold water imo. If they were truly "despicable", they would not sell as well as they do or have the kind of following they have. Do they need input and feedback to get it better the next time? Of course they do.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 44
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 6:30:18 PM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline
I personally enjoyed Rome: Total War the most due to richness of the period. Eventually I became bored after mastering the game.

It turns out there is a group which have done wonderful things modding the original game.

Google "Europa Barbarorum" and you will find the much richer game that was scaled back from the original development team.

Very challenging and if you thought the original campaign was fun, this is much more challenging and realistic.

Oh, did I mention the word *FREE*

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to MajorDude)
Post #: 45
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 6:34:23 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

I personally enjoyed Rome: Total War the most due to richness of the period. Eventually I became bored after mastering the game.

It turns out there is a group which have done wonderful things modding the original game.

Google "Europa Barbarorum" and you will find the much richer game that was scaled back from the original development team.

Very challenging and if you thought the original campaign was fun, this is much more challenging and realistic.

Oh, did I mention the word *FREE*


I am a fan of the TW series, I played Shogun : TW, Rome : TW, now playing and enjoying Medieval II : TW a lot. We are disgressing from WiF.


_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 46
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 7:58:26 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.



I am glad that you clarified my post as I was not trying to imply that Matrix had stoped and restarted. But I would think that after ADG's efforts of a period of time and then Matrix's efforts, that both would be willing to take a hard look at their options about how the game should be released.

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 47
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 9:40:20 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


I do want to make sure people who are unfamiliar with the complete history do not infer that this game has been stopped or restarted at all. It is true ADG is making a second attempt at making a PC capable version of WiF. But Matrix is on the first run for their project of MWiF.



I am glad that you clarified my post as I was not trying to imply that Matrix had stoped and restarted. But I would think that after ADG's efforts of a period of time and then Matrix's efforts, that both would be willing to take a hard look at their options about how the game should be released.

I hope they took a very hard look years ago when this project started. Also, I sincerely hope they do not follow ADG's path of cutting features to get the game out the door.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 48
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 10:01:31 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7980
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Hats off to Major Dude for an excellent post (#44) !

It seems to me those most vehemently against a release with an AI to come later are terrified that later may not come at all. So they make generalized "threats" that hardly anyone will buy the game, it will be labeled a poor product, it will be a failure, etc. etc.

The game workings are continuously improving and the bugs, spiders and snakes are being eradicated. But for various reasons the AI is still a distant goal, IMHO.

I've played WiF for years, had a career in the electronics and computer field, played many computer games and I've played board wargames for 44 years. The most complex game I've ever played in terms of strategy and tactics, without question, is WiF. I think describing the challenge of making a functional AI for MWiF as: "extremely daunting" is a vast understatement. Besides, playing the game solitaire will provide anyone with a competitive AI, at no additional cost. (Why do people want a machine that is challenging - regardless of their own level of play - but ideally does not beat them every game - regardless of their own level of play?) Anyway if they want a real challenge, they should go out and find a real human opponent.

There was a survey done (search the threads - it's here somewhere) that concluded an AI was a mandatory feature. Nonetheless, given the current state of the game versus the current state of the AI, there is, IMO, definite grounds for Matrix to (re)consider a two-part release. Multiplying the number of buyers of the first version of the game by the survey proportions will verify the overall market for the fully featured game. In the meantime, revenue to support the attainment of the full feature set will be generated.

From Matrix's perspective, why should they gamble that future sales of say 10000 units would be better than immediate sales of say 4000 units along with potentially future sales of 6000 plus 4000 "upgrades"? Should the game with an AI cost more than the game without one?

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 49
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/15/2010 10:49:37 PM   
Patience


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/15/2010
From: Colorado
Status: offline
Well lets do the math.  If it is true that 40% of the buyers of this game would buy it without a functional kick butt AI and it were to be released in 3 formats,
1) Without AI
2) With AI
3) Patch to add AI

Lets also look at sales volume.  To say that a grand total of 10000 copies would be sold is to say to Matrix that there really isn't any money in it.  More accurately projected sales of around 100000 is more realistic.

So lets see... If they sell the NO AI version for 59.95 and 40000 buy it because they really don't need an AI then the company can gross 2,398,000.  Hmm seems pretty good so far.

Then Matrix releases the full deal with working AI for 99.95 and the remaining 60000 buy that one and matrix makes another 5,997,000. and at the same time out comes the patch for anyone who bought the NO AI who wants to have an AI and it goes for 39.95 but then you also gotta figure alot of those folks who bought the NO AI still don't care about it so then Matrix only sells 20000 upgrades for an additional 799,000.

The total revenue from the game would be roughly 9 million..... maybe.

If Matrix releases the game with AI only then the total is 10 million easily.  Matrix is in business to make money and great selling products.





_____________________________

"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 50
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 12:30:43 AM   
Bibs

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2001
From: Cincinnati
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

Well lets do the math.  If it is true that 40% of the buyers of this game would buy it without a functional kick butt AI and it were to be released in 3 formats,
1) Without AI
2) With AI
3) Patch to add AI

Lets also look at sales volume.  To say that a grand total of 10000 copies would be sold is to say to Matrix that there really isn't any money in it.  More accurately projected sales of around 100000 is more realistic.

So lets see... If they sell the NO AI version for 59.95 and 40000 buy it because they really don't need an AI then the company can gross 2,398,000.  Hmm seems pretty good so far.

Then Matrix releases the full deal with working AI for 99.95 and the remaining 60000 buy that one and matrix makes another 5,997,000. and at the same time out comes the patch for anyone who bought the NO AI who wants to have an AI and it goes for 39.95 but then you also gotta figure alot of those folks who bought the NO AI still don't care about it so then Matrix only sells 20000 upgrades for an additional 799,000.

The total revenue from the game would be roughly 9 million..... maybe.

If Matrix releases the game with AI only then the total is 10 million easily.  Matrix is in business to make money and great selling products.






I hope you are not an economist. By this logic why don't they make a version that mows my lawn and sell it for 199.99 and make an easy 20 million. Because I don't want to pay $100 for something I don't want. I've said this before, but all you dreamers who think there will be a "functional kick butt AI" should take a look at other complex games Matrix has released like WITP and EIA. Nice for learning the game or goofing around but an experienced player gets bored real quick with them.

_____________________________

John Bibler

(in reply to Patience)
Post #: 51
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 12:51:36 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 176
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
Until Til Steve is in the position to start working on the ai it's a pretty moot point (my impression it is still a way off yet).

It really has to knock the socks off vassal to compete with or without ai.

(in reply to Bibs)
Post #: 52
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 2:42:02 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7980
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to vonpaul)
Post #: 53
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 4:09:39 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patience

Well lets do the math.  If it is true that 40% of the buyers of this game would buy it without a functional kick butt AI and it were to be released in 3 formats,
1) Without AI
2) With AI
3) Patch to add AI

Lets also look at sales volume.  To say that a grand total of 10000 copies would be sold is to say to Matrix that there really isn't any money in it.  More accurately projected sales of around 100000 is more realistic.

So lets see... If they sell the NO AI version for 59.95 and 40000 buy it because they really don't need an AI then the company can gross 2,398,000.  Hmm seems pretty good so far.

Then Matrix releases the full deal with working AI for 99.95 and the remaining 60000 buy that one and matrix makes another 5,997,000. and at the same time out comes the patch for anyone who bought the NO AI who wants to have an AI and it goes for 39.95 but then you also gotta figure alot of those folks who bought the NO AI still don't care about it so then Matrix only sells 20000 upgrades for an additional 799,000.

The total revenue from the game would be roughly 9 million..... maybe.

If Matrix releases the game with AI only then the total is 10 million easily.  Matrix is in business to make money and great selling products.







Wow! You are REALLY optimistist about the number of copies this game will sell.

These types of games are a niche market. Add to that WiF is even a smaller niche of a niche. If Matrix could sell 20K units they would be estatic, much less the numbers you suggest. (I tried to find actual sales numbers for these type of games but could not find a reliable source). Just because you may know a lot people that play WiF does not mean that a) everyone of those will buy a copy and b) that outside of WiF players there will not be many that would try it. Mainly because it is complex and has a steep learning curve.

The one thing your analysis left out that is very important is the 'Future Value of Money' or FV. So the $2.4M that you suggest that would come from the sales of an AI less version, would actually be much higher depending on how long an AI took to develop. This could easily make up the $1M difference that you claim would be the difference between the two versions. So for Matrix to maximize their profits, then they SHOULD release an version without an AI so as to maximize their profit

To sum up my thoughts is that, if the AI is typical of 90% of the games on the market today, this is NOT a game I would be willing to buy. To me the best AI is another human and it will be that way for a long time as far as I can see. I palyed CWiE solitare and had a blast. Why? Because so much was going on, I tended to forget what each side was doing. But that's just me . I am sure that the same would be true of MWiF too as imho, it is even more complex.

I respect both the posters here for having a different view and Matrix and Shannon for pushing forward with their vision. As my original post pointed out, this is just a suggestion, not something that I think that they HAVE to do or else, lol. Just one person's opnion, nothing more and nothing less.

(in reply to Patience)
Post #: 54
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 5:36:03 AM   
Patience


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/15/2010
From: Colorado
Status: offline
I may be optimistic about the # of copies sold but I believe that #s approaching a hundred thousand is within reach with world wide sales.  Like I've said in other posts I sometimes also become frustrated with the time its taken to get this out to market.  I would be more frustrated if I bought it and it wasn't up to snuff.  Also consider the thousands of gamers out there that might become interested in the game and would need even a kindergarten AI just to learn the game.  Sure its always a crap shoot with sales and a new product, but keep in mind this product already has an established base. 

I also respect others points of view and hope that there is a continuing dialog concerning what folks want.

Oh by the way Bibs, one that mows your lawn will take at least another 5 years and cost in the thousands since it would need to be a riding mover. lol..


_____________________________

"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 55
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 7:13:21 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 332
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline
Matrix must be delighted! Such hand-wringing over their earnings and profits - is this a fan forum, or a meeting of shareholders? Oh, the anguished sobs that accompany any thought of their missing out on a single nickel to be grubbed!

I'm afraid I don't share the tearful concerns some of you have for Matrix's ability to reap a financial windfall from this project, as if Matrix needed help counting their pennies. Their unwillingness to invest in MWiF (Must I use that term? It makes me feel dirty...) in any meaningful way has been on shameful display from the very beginning. From Day One, development has been guided by the utmost cynicism, lack of respect, and indifference to result. I think one post referenced their 'vision', which is truly a laughable conceit. Their vision is to invest no money, hire nobody, worry about nothing, and rely on lottery ticket-esque odds that a marketable product will result. And when it inevitably comes to naught... no worries, nothing's been lost!

I admire Steve's dogged endurance, his desire to release a product that he can be proud of, his attempt to deliver an electronic version of WiF that is true to the map & counter game we all fell in love with, and his openess in providing updates on his (lack of) progress... but I do not admire his stubborn lack of honesty in admitting that this project is far and away beyond his - or anyone's - ability to accomplish alone, with only the assistance of an ad-hoc group of volunteers and interns. MWiF without AI, PBEM, and net play is functionally indistinguishable from CWiF. And that's where we're at after six and a half years: MWiF is CWiF with pretty sprites.

So, I don't really care about Matrix's feelings, because they certainly don't care about ours. I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.


(in reply to Patience)
Post #: 56
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 8:43:50 AM   
Phelan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.


In what sense does MWIF sans AI beat Vassal? People here are discussing prices like 60 dollars for a version with no AI and then 40 more for the AI... That´s a lot more than I´d be willing to pay, let me tell you.

In fact, since WiF Vassal is working just fine I´m not really sure I would find a MWIF sans AI interesting at all. Sure, it can handle supply and stuff like that so you don´t miss things. On the other hand, you will get constricted by RAW, minor rule changes compared to WIF to handle the computerized form will require re-thinking some stuff, will it handle new optionals or rule changes introduced after it´s release? And there will be no room for houserules.

For a long time I would have been happy for a MWIF/CWIF sans AI, but after that came Vassal and frankly now I don´t really see the need for a MWIF unless it comes with an AI.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 57
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 9:33:04 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.


Warspite1

So why do they not do anything about it? You've had an e-mail exchange with Harry Rowland apparently, so what's the story?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 58
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 9:50:33 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42856
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.



While selling unfinished products is not really a good thing to do, pretty much across the board, the computer game publishing world has been doing this for at least a decade now.

Basically gone are the days when major producers hold games until they are absolutely 100% perfect before launch. Why? Three main reasons:

1 - It's way too expensive,

2 - Competition - if you don't get yours out quick enough, somebody else will make a cheap look-alike game and mess up your niche and marketing,

3 - Technology - get it done and out there before technology changes too much and leaves your game in the dust.


I have participated in numerous betas now, and continue to do so. Companies can no longer afford to have every type of machine, graphics card, etc. in house for testing, so they push it out in beta form for a lot of this kind of testing: stress, load, graphics, glitches, exploits, holes, etc.


Developing a good ai for a game is a huge undertaking. Small games have it easier, but how many times do you read reviews dissing the ai even in small games that are pretty close to getting it right.

The bigger the game, the grander the scale, the harder it is to write ai scripts that can react to all the possible 'human' events without it becoming too predictable hence boring. At the same time, you have to be careful not to give so much leeway that the ai starts to look silly or stupid.


It amazes me when I sometimes read comments players make about the ai in games. It often sounds like a sibling chiding another, much younger sibling "for playing like a doof". Yet, as soon as a game comes out with a really good, tough ai, how many of those same players do you see dissing it "because the ai is way too strong" or "the ai must be cheating because...". I truly believe there are some players out there that may not realize that what they want may not be possible, simply because what they want would beat them very often, and they are not going to accept that.


Now you took a stab at the TW series. It is not without its flaws, for sure. But to call the series "despicable", is a little over the top imho. The TW series has found a niche and a large following in the gaming community. The series is basically improving with each and every iteration. The ai is getting better and better with each new title.

Their latest announcement, Shogun 2 TW, has the ambitious schedule to program the ai using "Sun Tzu’s principles in the Art of War, the Artificial Intelligence constantly analyses its situation and reacts to your every move with greater precision and variety."


The people at CA, who make the TW series, admit themselves that the ai is the single, most difficult nut to crack in each and every one of their games. They aim high, they strive to get it as right as possible, and they admit they aren't always able to get it perfect.

So, just like almost all game publishers today, they test, then they patch. While it used to take a very long time for the pacth to come out, they now come out in almost record time, especially for small things that are easy to fix.


You know, it kind of makes me wonder how some may have forgotten board gaming BEFORE computers. Guys, you would not believe how many board games did NOT come out perfect the first time. We all lived by the famous word, ERRATA. Almost every board game came with a list of ERRATA that included:

1 - counter misprints, or missing counters,

2 - rule misprints,

3 - deployment misprints,

4 - rules omissions and deletions,

5 - and the dreaded "map misprints, omissions, and deletions" that required you to take out the pens and markers to fix it.


Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies involve crafting. Game publishers like CA for the TW series strive to get it as right as possible. It's not always perfect, but the types of games they make are the hardest to program for an ai opponent. We, as members of this hobby, can try to help to make these games better and help to give insight as to how we think ai can be improved.

Calling the TW series "despicable" does not hold water imo. If they were truly "despicable", they would not sell as well as they do or have the kind of following they have. Do they need input and feedback to get it better the next time? Of course they do.

Warspite1

Excellent post MajorDude. The point about ERRATA was well made - ever tried the Europa Series anyone .



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to MajorDude)
Post #: 59
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/16/2010 4:01:35 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
... selling unended products ... up to a certain extent some of the TW series games, can be financially successful but ethically very reprehensible, promising an AI and then giving pure shi-t, that would be repaired after one year of continuous patches is simply despicable.



While selling unfinished products is not really a good thing to do, pretty much across the board, the computer game publishing world has been doing this for at least a decade now.

Basically gone are the days when major producers hold games until they are absolutely 100% perfect before launch. Why? Three main reasons:

1 - It's way too expensive,

2 - Competition - if you don't get yours out quick enough, somebody else will make a cheap look-alike game and mess up your niche and marketing,

3 - Technology - get it done and out there before technology changes too much and leaves your game in the dust.


I have participated in numerous betas now, and continue to do so. Companies can no longer afford to have every type of machine, graphics card, etc. in house for testing, so they push it out in beta form for a lot of this kind of testing: stress, load, graphics, glitches, exploits, holes, etc.


Developing a good ai for a game is a huge undertaking. Small games have it easier, but how many times do you read reviews dissing the ai even in small games that are pretty close to getting it right.

The bigger the game, the grander the scale, the harder it is to write ai scripts that can react to all the possible 'human' events without it becoming too predictable hence boring. At the same time, you have to be careful not to give so much leeway that the ai starts to look silly or stupid.


It amazes me when I sometimes read comments players make about the ai in games. It often sounds like a sibling chiding another, much younger sibling "for playing like a doof". Yet, as soon as a game comes out with a really good, tough ai, how many of those same players do you see dissing it "because the ai is way too strong" or "the ai must be cheating because...". I truly believe there are some players out there that may not realize that what they want may not be possible, simply because what they want would beat them very often, and they are not going to accept that.


Now you took a stab at the TW series. It is not without its flaws, for sure. But to call the series "despicable", is a little over the top imho. The TW series has found a niche and a large following in the gaming community. The series is basically improving with each and every iteration. The ai is getting better and better with each new title.

Their latest announcement, Shogun 2 TW, has the ambitious schedule to program the ai using "Sun Tzu’s principles in the Art of War, the Artificial Intelligence constantly analyses its situation and reacts to your every move with greater precision and variety."


The people at CA, who make the TW series, admit themselves that the ai is the single, most difficult nut to crack in each and every one of their games. They aim high, they strive to get it as right as possible, and they admit they aren't always able to get it perfect.

So, just like almost all game publishers today, they test, then they patch. While it used to take a very long time for the pacth to come out, they now come out in almost record time, especially for small things that are easy to fix.


You know, it kind of makes me wonder how some may have forgotten board gaming BEFORE computers. Guys, you would not believe how many board games did NOT come out perfect the first time. We all lived by the famous word, ERRATA. Almost every board game came with a list of ERRATA that included:

1 - counter misprints, or missing counters,

2 - rule misprints,

3 - deployment misprints,

4 - rules omissions and deletions,

5 - and the dreaded "map misprints, omissions, and deletions" that required you to take out the pens and markers to fix it.


Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies involve crafting. Game publishers like CA for the TW series strive to get it as right as possible. It's not always perfect, but the types of games they make are the hardest to program for an ai opponent. We, as members of this hobby, can try to help to make these games better and help to give insight as to how we think ai can be improved.

Calling the TW series "despicable" does not hold water imo. If they were truly "despicable", they would not sell as well as they do or have the kind of following they have. Do they need input and feedback to get it better the next time? Of course they do.

I think every thing you say here Major Dude is well said except for the last statement, I dont know if I would go as far as to say despicable, maybe Jose could come up with a better description I will leave that up to him, Major dude you mentioned "sell as well as they do" come on please ever hear of PONG, sold millions ugh, the gaming world is so desperate for a good game they would almost buy anything, and have. Because a movie grosses this and that, does that mean its a good movie or did a bunch of go lucky flaky teenagers [remember when] make it so. How about some rap music do you think its good, do you think rappers are that great, or do people that buy that crap make them good [if you people here like that stuff then my deepest apoligies just showing my age] about the AI I have said it before and say it again nobody IMHO has ever made an AI [unless it cheats god forbid] that can even come close to beating a good tacticle player for only one reason its predictable, maybe the WW2 engima machine could be brought into play and solve the AI problems maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo


(in reply to MajorDude)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: A suggestion to Matrix Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.180