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A suggestion to Matrix - 6/11/2010 7:33:50 PM   
Numdydar

 

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As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI. I would be willing to pay for such a product. I would also be willing to pay for an expansion that would include an AI at a later date. As no work to date on an AI has been done, this would allow some monies to be gained to help the project in the long term.

The major question of whether this is viable or not depends on the difficulty of adding the AI in an expansion versus adding it as the development progresses. If adding the AI later would cause major problems, then this would not work. As I do not know enough about how the game is programed, I make this as a suggestion only and maybe others can comment on whether or not this idea is even feasible or not :)
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/11/2010 9:09:49 PM   
wworld7


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This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is having an AI is part of the contract for the project.

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/11/2010 11:04:45 PM   
michaelbaldur


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the AI is almost finished ....

we are just waiting for the last bugs to be fixed before we add it to the game...

just wait .. the game is perfect


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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 1:46:21 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI. I would be willing to pay for such a product. I would also be willing to pay for an expansion that would include an AI at a later date. As no work to date on an AI has been done, this would allow some monies to be gained to help the project in the long term.

The major question of whether this is viable or not depends on the difficulty of adding the AI in an expansion versus adding it as the development progresses. If adding the AI later would cause major problems, then this would not work. As I do not know enough about how the game is programed, I make this as a suggestion only and maybe others can comment on whether or not this idea is even feasible or not :)

Gee I thought the AI was being worked on, but if you have only posted 25 posts in 6 years you are not paying much attention to the posts or Steves posts, If Matix only sold their game to the cadre here meaning all the posters and board game players they would go bankrupt even if everyone here bought it, they need the rest of the gaming world to be interested to make a decent profit and the rest of the gaming world will demand an AI,
a fact of life in the gaming world.

Bo

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 2:33:18 AM   
Numdydar

 

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BO,

I hate to be harsh, but how can you claim that 'you know' what I have been paying attention to and for how long? Just because I do not post, in no way implies that I have NOT been paying attention. Also, Computer War in Europe which has no AI has sold pretty well and Decision Games is not going bankrupt because of it. So not having an AI is not the end of the world, especially if it could be included as an addon later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is having an AI is part of the contract for the project.



Also, the contract is still valid becauset he AI STILL will be done, just not as part of the initial release. Plus contracts can always be revised (I know, because I have done enough of that in RL) so that is not a reason NOT to follow through on my suggestion. The best reason to not use my suggestion is .....

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

the AI is almost finished ....

we are just waiting for the last bugs to be fixed before we add it to the game...

just wait .. the game is perfect



However, in the last three month status reports from Steve (April-June), the AI section had 'Nothing new'. Given that as the status for three months it would imply that zero is being done on the AI at all. Hence the reason for my suggestion. Matter of fact, the last time there was an update on the AI was in the Jan 2010 status report. So unless I have really missed something (which I will admit is entirely possible), this lack of status implied to me that the AI was on hold (or being completely ignored for the time being).

As that seems not to be the case due to the quote above, then my OP no longer has any merit (unless balancing the AI will take a long period of time).

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 3:49:09 AM   
Minority Report

 

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I am not posting often but I have been following this forum for quite a while, and I have been playing WIF since 1989.

I made the same suggestion in August 2005 on this forum with the same rationale, and I got a similar answer: a game without an AI is not a proper game. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=918551

Given the complexity of MWIF, I am not sure this is a valid argument, and yes there are other successful computer wargames without AI. I also agree that the contract issue is a false excuse. A contract can be re-open if both parties agree to do so. For the AI being near completion, I think it only means that the setup for the minor countries, and a list of grand strategies for the major powers are done. Not the actual programming and debugging.

In the end, however, I don't think Matrix will change the course because it is Steve who is taking all the risks, as he will be paid only when the game is sold.

So, we will have to wait until the game is ready as planned.

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 4:49:55 AM   
bo

 

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Numdydar I dont find you harsh at all and I stand corrected if you been watching and you certainly do not have to post if you do not want to or if you feel you have nothing to add on any subject but I heard the AI was being worked on, and I have to disagree with you about the AI if you read my whole post I mentioned I do not care at this moment if the AI is done now or at a later date as long as it done, the average player who plays all the SC series and their is 40 million or so playing it would never buy the SC series with out an AI, I am retired so I can wait to play a person at any time but I believe the average person here who has to work to pay the bills does not have the time that I do to get someone to play at each others convenience and if they truly love the game which they do they can play the AI, I will stand behind my remark NO AI very few sales and I believe that Matrix is in the business of making a profit gee could be wrong.

Bo

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 1:20:13 PM   
Anendrue


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Nothing new does not mean on hold or abandoned. It means there is nothing new to announce. We need bugs out of the game mechanics first. Once that is done it becomes easier to integrate a new component into the game. Think of the AI as a component that is plugged into the game for use. It is only used in one of five modes of play. The modes are Solitaire, Hotseat, Internet, PBEM and AI.


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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 2:40:32 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Whenever I reported status and that type of activity was going on, I would state that as "In progress' as that implies that that some activity is still occuring yet nothing major had changed since the last period. Just a suggestion :)

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 4:43:37 PM   
Patience


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All,

I agree that the AI is likely very close to done.  Most of the more recent news about the AI has involved debugging.  Putting together the supply routine is yet another step "this elephant" (As Steve would put it) has taken toward its final destination.  Like many of you I am hopeful that it won't be much longer and would love to see it soon.  I have confidence that when MWiF is released it will be everything we hoped for and I believe that this is Steve's goal as well.


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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 6:17:44 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Whenever I reported status and that type of activity was going on, I would state that as "In progress' as that implies that that some activity is still occuring yet nothing major had changed since the last period. Just a suggestion :)

I have to agree with that but most of us have been following all the posts not just Steve's monthly report, and please not being negative just stating a known fact.

Bo

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/12/2010 9:49:44 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/13/2010 10:59:41 AM   
Norden_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.


Ah, and I was just beginning to wonder, where those "AI almost done" posts were hiding. Just as Numdydar, I follow this forum close without a lot of posting. So, Bo, nice postcount, but maybe you should start reading instead. This goes for a lot of people here. I cannot count all the times an innocent question (yes, it has been asked before - in 2005 - it seems) is torn down with derisive comments form "topposters". My respect to Numdydar for staying calm and thus actually getting answers instead of a flamewar.

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/13/2010 6:49:10 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.


Ah, and I was just beginning to wonder, where those "AI almost done" posts were hiding. Just as Numdydar, I follow this forum close without a lot of posting. So, Bo, nice postcount, but maybe you should start reading instead. This goes for a lot of people here. I cannot count all the times an innocent question (yes, it has been asked before - in 2005 - it seems) is torn down with derisive comments form "topposters". My respect to Numdydar for staying calm and thus actually getting answers instead of a flamewar.

Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy thats a compliment Crussdaddy

Bo

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/13/2010 9:55:24 PM   
Numdydar

 

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No flamewar needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view )







< Message edited by Numdydar -- 6/13/2010 9:56:15 PM >

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/13/2010 10:17:31 PM   
Bibs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy thats a compliment Crussdaddy

Bo



I'd say you have gone from idiotic negative to idiotic positive.


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Post #: 16
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 1:02:59 AM   
Patience


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Steve,

My apologies. I did not mean to imply that you were finishing up the AI. I realize the extremely difficult task you have before you.

Respectfully...

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Post #: 17
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 2:57:53 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No flamewar needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view )







Geez what is your problem I agree with you

Bo

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 3:05:29 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bibs


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy thats a compliment Crussdaddy

Bo



I'd say you have gone from idiotic negative to idiotic positive.


Oh Bibs I was always a middle of a roader until I started posting here but one thing I did do was wake you up from your slumber wow 2001. But regardless your statement could not be truer.
Bo

Bo

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Post #: 19
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 3:14:21 AM   
BallyJ

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No flamewar needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view )







I would add that I would buy the game with or without an AI

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 3:44:07 PM   
Anendrue


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In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.


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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 6:27:06 PM   
composer99


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As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI

Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.

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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 6:42:56 PM   
Skanvak

 

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Point 2,3 and 4 are enough. I am designed one of the cyberboard box for Wif and use them. I know the differences but we are somehow fan (even me who have not play for several years now, I will buy it anyway if it is not buggy and have support and continued developpement and is moddable, AI is secondary to all of that... (even tertiary or less may be)). If there is such a release, it should stay confidential until the AI is ready.

BUT someone say the AI is nearly finish. What does this means? If it is so there is no need to worry about (and thanks to all who have post to help steve establish strategy for the AI). Of course if nearly finish is the usual nearly finish, well, I should try cryogenisation to stay alive until it is ready :)


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RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 7:10:49 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

BUT someone say the AI is nearly finish. What does this means? If it is so there is no need to worry about (and thanks to all who have post to help steve establish strategy for the AI). Of course if nearly finish is the usual nearly finish, well, I should try cryogenisation to stay alive until it is ready :)

Warspite1

Skanvak please see Steve's post 12. Coming from Steve, this should be considered the official response. The comment about the AI being nearly finished should not have been made.

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Post #: 24
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 8:43:49 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.


Stole the words right out of my mouth as always your words are enlightning the new me

Bo

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Post #: 25
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 8:51:00 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI

Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.

Buggy, rudimentary, CWIF, yo I bought it and I thought it was pretty decent for a noob like me, of course some people here thing I am buggy and rude---mentry, hey we all have our faults, honestly Composer I feel its pretty good for a amature lesson which is about all I can handle right now, looking forward for Steve's version.

Bo

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Post #: 26
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 8:51:03 PM   
Anendrue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.


Stole the words right out of my mouth as always your words are enlightning the new me

Bo

Bo you sure make me laugh a lot. Have a great day!

_____________________________

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Post #: 27
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 9:41:35 PM   
Patience


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For your dining and dancing pleasure these are Steve's last statements concerning the progress of the AI and its importance..  Keep in mind this is a summary of accomplishments for 2009.  I put my comments in green so as not to be confused with the report

Artificial Intelligence (AI)
I decided that one way to reduced my task list for creating the AIO is to limit the number of different scenarios that it can play when the game is first released. I’ll do 4 of the 11 scenarios for first release and then add the other 7 as patches in subsequent months. What this removes from my task list is figuring out alternative setups for thousands of units in the 7 scenarios that start late in the war. Each of those scenarios has hundreds, if not thousands, of units on the map at the start of the game. If the AIO always uses the same setup, it becomes too predictable and easy to defeat. But to do a respectable job of designing alternative setups for thousands of units will take time and effort.

The 4 scenarios that will be ready for first release are the ones that will be played the most: the two introductory scenarios (Barbarossa and Guadalcanal) and the Global War scenario (which is virtually the only scenario ever played in over the board games). The fourth scenario is Fascist Tide, which is the European half of the Global War scenario, so it can use the same setups.

I went back over what I had written on the French strategic plan. In 2008 I split the French strategic plan into its component parts for conversion into LAIO scripts. In so doing, I left the rather monolithic first 3 parts untouched. During 2009 I broke out the first two and I rendered them into data files. As a prerequisite, I created the storage structures for those pieces of the strategic plan: vital hexes and regions of conflicts (land, sea, and air).

Peter Skoglund worked throughout the year on setup scripts, first for the minor countries (e.g., Spain and Turkey) and after those were done, for the major powers (e.g., France). For instance, Peter finished up the convoy setups for all the major powers for the Global War scenario. We’re using a sophisticated system to analyze threats from air, sea, and land and since they are employed in so many of the scripts, Peter has developed a library of common functions - written in LAIO (Language for Artificial Intelligence Opponent).

Peter’s library of LAIO common functions is substantial at this point though I expect it to continue to grow. Most programmers will understand this terminology, and for those of you who don’t, a function is a fragment of code that is used by multiple LAIO scripts. By pulling them out and placing them in a separate file, they only have to be written (and debugged) once. Then they can be used by any script that needs the same logic. A couple of examples are: (1) determining whether there are any seaborne invasion threats when setting up minor country units, and (2) the same for paradrop threats. These functions are used when setting up the units for almost every country - that is, they are used in over 50 places.

Note that the AIO uses an abstract system rather than a hard coded “this unit goes in this hex”. There is a dual purpose behind using the abstract form: (1) it is easier than trying to hard code all the different combinations and permutations of defenses against the myriad of threats minor countries face when they enter the war, and (2) it is the system that the AIO will use for setting up the major powers. My hope is that eventually the design will be robust enough that the AIO will be able to set up the 7 scenarios that start late in the war without me (or anyone else) having to take the time to figure out which units set up in which hexes.

I wrote the code for the first five steps for the parser and added a new form expressly for testing LAIO scripts. These can be called from the within MWIF and used to monitor how a script is parsed and executed. I devoted many days to creating the data structures for the LAIO parser. As Peter and I worked through various setup scripts, we identified new variable types that we hadn’t thought of previously. Each variable type requires it own data structure. This is not surprising to me and I expect the number of data structures to continue to grow as we write more scripts. I thought about trying to create an exhaustive list, but if I did, more than half of them would never be needed. Therefore, I just add data structures as I come across new variable types.

I created a full directory structure within MWIF just for the AIO files/scripts.

Ian Wilson (PhD in AI) strongly recommended creating an abstract layer to the MWIF geography, so planning and decision making do not have to be done at the hex level. I had expected to do something along those lines but after Ian’s suggestion, and having worked with Peter on setting up units in Spain and France, my ideas kind of jelled. The result is a 4 level breakdown of the world map: (1) global, (2) theater of operations, (3) area of operations, and (4) sea area groups/land regions. These are hierarchical (1 down to 4), mutually exclusive, and exhaustive for all 70,200 hexes.

Patrice started work on the first cut at this and I spent a day or so digging down into the details too. Each geographical component has one or more decision makers assigned by the AI Opponent. Now many of these ‘areas’ will be irrelevant to most, if not all, of the major powers. For example, which major power in MWIF cares about the Southern Ocean or Hudson Bay? And Italy’s interest in the Pacific is comparable to China’s interest in the Atlantic - none whatsoever.

The benefit for the AIO design is that when a decision needs to be made, (e.g., which naval units to include in a moving stack), the AIO has a well defined frame of reference for making that decision. On land, this enables the creation of fall-back positions in Russia and China that include a group of hexes. Another gain is that sea area pipelines will be composed of a series SAGs (Sea Area Groups). Towards this goal, Patrice and I defined a geographical breakdown of Europe, including the adjacent sea areas. This is now ready for use in the AIO scripts.

I realigned the decision making assignments for each decision maker. Mostly this involved splitting a list of tasks into subsets for a hierarchy of decision makers. For example, instead of there being just one naval decision maker (i.e., the Admiralty), there are now 4: Admiralty - global responsibility, Rear Admiral - theater of operations, Fleet Admiral - area of operations, and Naval Group Commander - sea area group.

Continuing the example, the Admiralty decides on convoy pipeline entry and exit points for each theater of operations (TO) and allocates new/unused units to each TO. The Rear Admiral decides on the use of convoys and naval transports within his TO as well as the positioning of naval units to establish a naval presence in individual sea areas. The Fleet Admiral moves convoys with accompanying escorts within his area of operations. He is also responsible for committing units to attack enemy naval assets and deciding to which port(s) naval units return. And at the lowest level, the Naval Group Commander decides all the tactical naval decisions, ranging from shore bombardment through choice of naval combat table.

The key benefit of these changes is that each decision maker has a geographical area of responsibility that aligns perfectly with the geographical breakdown that Patrice, Peter, and I have defined (still incomplete at this point). When making decisions, each decision maker has a smaller search space for choosing the best move.


This is my favorite part.....

Tasks for 2010
Finish MWIF product 1 so I can buy a large screen, flat panel, HD TV.

Since January there has been no mention of any progress with the AI and its development.  Unless i missed something in a later report.  which is why I assumed that most of the work was done.  My bad.  I'm still hoping Steve gets his flat panel HD TV soon!!  



_____________________________

"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 28
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 10:34:30 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3055
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.



I would be interested in understanding how you feel this could happen. Why would the reviewers 'hammer' the game when Matrix would clearly point out that there was no AI. Computer War in Europe was not 'hammered' in its reviews just because it did not have an AI as it was clearly stated that it did not have one.

I would agree that if Matrix claimed that there was an AI and in small print stated the AI was another human, then I could see your point, lol.

It should be stressed that NOT having an AI with a game system that accutately reflects WiF AND has the rules and mechinics coded correctly, would be far better than a game whose AI was lacking imho. Then the reviews WOULD have a valid reason to trash the game.

If Matrix only sold 500 copies of MWiF without an AI at $50 (as I stated before I would buy it) that is $25K that Matrix does not have now.

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 29
RE: A suggestion to Matrix - 6/14/2010 11:01:26 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In my opinion releasing the game without an AI limits the customer market base. Reviewers who expect an AI will hammer it in the ratings department. I feel it would be sending the game straight to the bottom of the ocean with no life support.



I would be interested in understanding how you feel this could happen. Why would the reviewers 'hammer' the game when Matrix would clearly point out that there was no AI. Computer War in Europe was not 'hammered' in its reviews just because it did not have an AI as it was clearly stated that it did not have one.

I would agree that if Matrix claimed that there was an AI and in small print stated the AI was another human, then I could see your point, lol.

It should be stressed that NOT having an AI with a game system that accutately reflects WiF AND has the rules and mechinics coded correctly, would be far better than a game whose AI was lacking imho. Then the reviews WOULD have a valid reason to trash the game.

If Matrix only sold 500 copies of MWiF without an AI at $50 (as I stated before I would buy it) that is $25K that Matrix does not have now.


Matrix and Steve have already stated publicly and in published interviews that an AI will be part of the game. In my experience the industry does not relate well when features are removed from a game to get it released. This is specifically pointed out in most reviews when it occurs. General reaction comes in the form of statements similar to, "They hurried it out the door.", "It wasn't really finished.", etc.... It is one thing to build a game without an AI and quite another to drop a specific design feature. Heck the discussion right here points out that there are already two opposing viewpoints. This type of discussion played out by reviewers can bring nothing good to the table.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 30
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