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Bren LMGs have no performance data

 
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Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 2:55:52 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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I don't think Bren LMG's are active at the moment:





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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 2:59:27 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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We should get an Estab edit compilation thread going. I saw someone say something about M1 rifles, as well as the German rifles being unusable due low reliability- I changed mine from .04something to .99. Here's what I am using for an edited Bren LMG:





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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 3:42:57 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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Good work Franklin Nimitz.

Did you check the CotA estab data for the entries?






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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 3:46:36 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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And I believe that most of the other information that's needed is under the other tab:







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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 4:48:17 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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Actually I just checked Wikipedia, and gave it 'typical' LMG data. The 6mm of armor penetration is a gift of sorts. I think the estab engine allows for giving nominal armor penetration data, but I don't know if it means anything when in the Aper fire data table.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Good work Franklin Nimitz.

Did you check the CotA estab data for the entries?







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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 6:18:02 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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Something that this application desperately needs is some sort of aggregate viewer, something in spreadsheet format perhaps.

I make that comment because it's just too darn easy to miss a value that's been entered incorrectly.

Did you notice that a big chunk of the Allied weapons data cites the EXACT same reliability value, including the M-1 rifle.

The Mauser, on the other hand, has something ridiculously low, and would have stood out like a sore-thumb in spreadsheet form because it's in such stark contrast to the reliability of similar weapons.




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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/7/2010 6:43:34 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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I was thinking the same thing- maybe a family of performance charts- something that makes it easy to visually flag omissions or overutilization of copy/paste (e.g. reliability).

I always thought the engine overemphasized artillery, but they could at least give the poor german grunts a rifle that worked, and the Brits a LMG that shot. Poor bloody infantry can never catch a break...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Something that this application desperately needs is some sort of aggregate viewer, something in spreadsheet format perhaps.

I make that comment because it's just too darn easy to miss a value that's been entered incorrectly.

Did you notice that a big chunk of the Allied weapons data cites the EXACT same reliability value, including the M-1 rifle.

The Mauser, on the other hand, has something ridiculously low, and would have stood out like a sore-thumb in spreadsheet form because it's in such stark contrast to the reliability of similar weapons.





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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/12/2010 8:58:01 AM   
wodin


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This is a major issue I feel that needs to be addressed ASAP....you can't have these major weapons being ineffective....

Has Dave been informed?

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/12/2010 4:01:27 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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Hi Wodin,

I'm trying to find a freeware utility that'll allow us to view the estab .xml files in spreadsheet or .CSV format. IMO, that's essential because it's darn near impossible to identify goofy-stuff like this in the mountain of data that's presented in the EE GUI. Prima facia, all is well. It's only when someone goes digging in the editor for a specific function, that errors become evident. Were this not so, I have to believe that the errors would not have escaped the watchful eye of the developer and his playtesters. As I mentioned above, a HUGE percentage of the weapons in the game have the exact same "reliability" coefficient.  Something needs to be done, but it will likely require tools (which we currently don't have) and some serious elbow-grease.


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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/12/2010 8:20:13 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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I too have baulked at the amount of info in the editor, and the look of the database behind it, and am afraid of the mistakes I’ve made and how they'll affect the game.

However, I am a technician working for my city's local government roads authority, managing street lighting, and we have an inventory and job management package that is a lot worse to look at than the Estab Editor. Similar to the Estab Editor, the street lighting package allows you to manipulate the database through a graphic user interface, which should make everything user friendly. The GUI is usefully if you want to look at each lamp post/job in detail, but for making sense of all the wood-for-the-trees we use a third party SQL based report generating package which pulls info out of the database onto a excel look-a-like report whose fields you specify. This can be exported to Excel proper and manipulated. Edits can then be merged with the database.

So, say for example you want to look at what faults have been reported against a certain type of lamp post, say really old steel ones, you would point your report at the inventory database and tell it to find all the old steel poles, then look at the job database and find all jobs raised against those poles. You would then specify the report fields as pole location, age, manufacturer, and job date, person who did the job, and cost of the job. Your report would not include the mountain of info associated with each to the poles, or the jobs, and help you get a better idea which old poles are becoming a maintainence nightmare etc. With the Estab editor, you would restrict your report fields to what was pertinent to your query, say having one report to check all the Force details are correct, another to check weapon details etc.

The package we use if called R&R Report Works, but I don't think you'd get it for cheaps, or on any torrent site. I also don't know how to point it at databases other than the default, but I believe it is possible and will have a try. I think many accountants use a similar kind of reporting package, I think called "Crystal". MS Access can produce similar report, if you know what you're doing with it, which I don't, but that might be a better solution seeing as most people have it.


< Message edited by Chief Rudiger -- 6/12/2010 8:24:06 PM >

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/12/2010 8:21:43 PM   
wodin


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Well I'm willing but I haven't got the knowledge to know what the value should be....

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/12/2010 8:26:19 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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Exactly my problem too. Maybe this is why games take so long to develop, play test and then cost so much... woops, should keep that for the price thread...

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/13/2010 9:52:53 PM   
wodin


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If the germans at present don't really have a decent main weapon then scenarios can't be playing out right at all at the minute....not sure whether it's worth playing anymore until this is looked at

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 4:39:41 AM   
RedMike


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who is armed with a bren ?? the amis ?? the germans ?? captured usage ?? what ??

i think there is data in the estab pertaining to a possible upgrade for httr which has not been completed yet. in which case that is why you see bren guns with incomplete data.

on the other hand, other significant weaponry with questionable entries may need attention. if spotted please report to panther.

just my unofficial half farthing.

redmike...out

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 7:22:23 AM   
wodin


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The M1 carbine and German rifles have problems aswell RedMike....also the Mg42 high rate of fire is I think about 50 rounds a minute....I'd imagine it should be more like 500...the highest rate of fire I came across in the high rate of fire catergory for an MG gun was 120....

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 8:04:07 AM   
Arjuna


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see my comment on rates of fire here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2495592&mpage=1�


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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 8:14:31 AM   
wodin


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OK Dave I've read it...thanks for the reply...as I said maybe an option when on the defence for Max ROF in emergency would be useful then?



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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 9:40:51 AM   
Arjuna


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That already happens automatically - ie the rate of fire is increased if the enemy is very close.

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 9:51:05 AM   
wodin


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Excellent

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 9:52:47 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

I too have baulked at the amount of info in the editor, and the look of the database behind it, and am afraid of the mistakes I’ve made and how they'll affect the game.

However, I am a technician working for my city's local government roads authority, managing street lighting, and we have an inventory and job management package that is a lot worse to look at than the Estab Editor. Similar to the Estab Editor, the street lighting package allows you to manipulate the database through a graphic user interface, which should make everything user friendly. The GUI is usefully if you want to look at each lamp post/job in detail, but for making sense of all the wood-for-the-trees we use a third party SQL based report generating package which pulls info out of the database onto a excel look-a-like report whose fields you specify. This can be exported to Excel proper and manipulated. Edits can then be merged with the database.

So, say for example you want to look at what faults have been reported against a certain type of lamp post, say really old steel ones, you would point your report at the inventory database and tell it to find all the old steel poles, then look at the job database and find all jobs raised against those poles. You would then specify the report fields as pole location, age, manufacturer, and job date, person who did the job, and cost of the job. Your report would not include the mountain of info associated with each to the poles, or the jobs, and help you get a better idea which old poles are becoming a maintainence nightmare etc. With the Estab editor, you would restrict your report fields to what was pertinent to your query, say having one report to check all the Force details are correct, another to check weapon details etc.

The package we use if called R&R Report Works, but I don't think you'd get it for cheaps, or on any torrent site. I also don't know how to point it at databases other than the default, but I believe it is possible and will have a try. I think many accountants use a similar kind of reporting package, I think called "Crystal". MS Access can produce similar report, if you know what you're doing with it, which I don't, but that might be a better solution seeing as most people have it.



What is it you want exactly? Once the reported bugs are ironed out, maybe me, The Plodder and DanO can get something going that is a bit more intuitive than Excel. An application to sort or provide different views of the Estab data wouldn't be too hard to code up if we're three devs working on it. Detail it a bit and hear what Dave has to say and I think we can get something done.

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 10:29:38 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

What is it you want exactly? Once the reported bugs are ironed out, maybe me, The Plodder and DanO can get something going that is a bit more intuitive than Excel. An application to sort or provide different views of the Estab data wouldn't be too hard to code up if we're three devs working on it. Detail it a bit and hear what Dave has to say and I think we can get something done.


What would be ideal?

We could really use a utility that would convert the .xml file into an Excel SS, where the data could be viewed and amended as needed/desired. Once the work was completed, it would be highly desirable if the spreadsheet could then be converted back into .xml format, whereupon, it could be recompiled into an estab file. That's all.

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/14/2010 10:52:04 PM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

What is it you want exactly? Once the reported bugs are ironed out, maybe me, The Plodder and DanO can get something going that is a bit more intuitive than Excel. An application to sort or provide different views of the Estab data wouldn't be too hard to code up if we're three devs working on it. Detail it a bit and hear what Dave has to say and I think we can get something done.


What would be ideal?

We could really use a utility that would convert the .xml file into an Excel SS, where the data could be viewed and amended as needed/desired. Once the work was completed, it would be highly desirable if the spreadsheet could then be converted back into .xml format, whereupon, it could be recompiled into an estab file. That's all.


Gotcha, but why a stop-over in Excel? Why not an application that reads the Estab xml, presents it a bit more intuitively and then saves any changes (along with the unchanged values) into a new xml-file for the user to use? Is there a certain presentation format that is needed that only Excel can handle? Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or question your desire to use Excel in any way, these are genuine questions, so no offence meant in any way.

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/15/2010 1:20:59 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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Are you familiar with the scenmaker mod tools that you can download from the CotA website? They are Excel based, Office 2003 to be exact. I don't think that they'll work with anything else. The tools allow you to export an OOB from a scenario to the clipboard, and then paste the data into Excel where the different values can be modified, leadership and fitness, for example. Then the data from the SS can be copied back to the clipboard, and imported into the game. Excel doesn't have to be used, but it sure is easy to use.

And thanks for sharing your ideas; I didn't take offense at all.

Edit: Bolded segment was altered in an attempt to make the process of using the existing mod tools clearer. Thought my initial description was kinda hash.



< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 6/15/2010 3:29:09 PM >


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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/15/2010 7:07:12 AM   
daft

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Are you familiar with the scenmaker mod tools that you can download from the CotA website? They are Excel based, Office 2003 to be exact. I don't think that they'll work with anything else. The tools allow you to export an OOB from a scenario to the clipboard where the different values can be modified, leadership and fitness, for example. Excel doesn't have to be used, but it sure is easy to use.

And thanks for sharing your ideas; I didn't take offense at all.




Aha, now it all makes sense. As you can tell, I'm not familiar with those tools. I'll see what The Plodder and DanO thinks and check with Dave before we get anything going, just to be on the safe side.

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/15/2010 9:34:29 PM   
TMO

 

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Also noticed in the Estab editor that the Lee Enfield and Bren only weigh 1 kg - which is nice if you have to lug them around! Probably ought to be around 4 and 10.35 kg respectively

Regards

Tim

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/15/2010 10:31:19 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TMO

Also noticed in the Estab editor that the Lee Enfield and Bren only weigh 1 kg


Hi TMO,

Did you notice any other rifles/smg/ar that were cited as 1 kg?


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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/15/2010 11:50:10 PM   
TMO

 

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PoE

This is , I think, the lot currently listed as 1 kg.

.303 inch Bren
.303 inch Lee Enfield
1.5cm MG 151/15 Drilling
10,5cm StuH 42 L/28
12,8cm PjK 80 L/55
15cm NW 42 - Sf
15cm StuH 43 L/12
2 pdr tank gun
2cm Flak 38 - Sf
2cm Flakvierling - Pz
2cm Flakvierling - Sf
2cm KwK 38 L/55
3.7cm PaK 35/36 L/45 - Sf
37mm M1A2 AA gun - M15 MGMC
37mm M6 gun - tank
38cm RW 61 L/5.4
3in M5 AT gun
4.2in M2 mortar
4.7cm KwK 173 ( f )
5cm KwK 39 L/60
5cm leGrW 36
7.5cm KwK 37 L/24
7.5cm KwK 40 L/48
7.5cm KwK 42 L/70
7.5cm PaK 39 L/48 - PzJ 38(t)
7.5cm PaK 39 L/48 - PzJ IV
7.5cm PjK 42 L/70
7.5cm StuK 40 L/48 - III
7.5cm StuK 40 L/48 - IV
7.92mm sMG 34
7.92mm sMG 42
75mm M3 gun - tank
75mm M6 gun - tank
75mm Mk V tank gun
76mm M1 gun - tank / GMC
76mm M7 gun - GMC
8.8cm KwK 36 L/56
8.8cm KwK 43 L/71
8.8cm PaK 43 L/71
8.8cm PaK 43/1 L/71
8.8cm PaK 43/3 L/71
8.8cm PaK 43/41
90mm M3 gun - GMC
95mm tank how
Flamethrower (Char B1)
Flamethrower (Crocodile)
Flamethrower (Flammpanzer 38(t))
Flamethrower (inf)
Flamethrower (SdKfz 251/16)

And two that seem a little odd, both at 11.5 kg:

12,2cm sFH 396 (r)
12.8cm K 81/1

Regards

Tim

< Message edited by TMO -- 6/15/2010 11:51:57 PM >

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/16/2010 1:19:35 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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I was afraid of that; I came across a bunch of 1 kg entries when I was making a LMG.

I hope the cavalry arrives soon!

Then again, some of this stuff regarding weight may not even effect gameplay. Same deal regarding the dimensions of some of the infantry weapons, many, many of which are 1 meter in length.

< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 6/16/2010 1:47:07 AM >


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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/16/2010 1:34:59 AM   
Larac

 

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The Flame thrower has no pic :)

Lee

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RE: Bren LMGs have no performance data - 6/16/2010 1:46:42 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Larac

The Flame thrower has no pic :)

Lee



They don't have to have pictures. That, for sure, has no effect on outcomes. There's a list of estab items that lack images here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2483568#

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