Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Printed Manual?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> Printed Manual? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 3:47:44 AM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Hi,

Does this come with a printed manual?

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 3:49:03 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
lol nope and that's another thing about the $80 price tag. That expensive and not even a printed manual.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 2
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 3:51:02 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
No, it does not.

It comes with an excellent 213 page E-Book game manual, along with three separate manuals for Scenario, Map and Estab editing. Between them, these manuals document everything you need to know about the game and the editing tools.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 3
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 6:01:17 AM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Erik,

I am surprised, given the $90 price tag - I would have thought that for this price you would get a printed manual.

War In The Pacific: AE is the same price, and that gets a color printed manual.

What is the rationale for giving that game a manual, but not Battles From The Bulge?

I would understand if this was a budget title, but at $90? Surely you could include a manual.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 4
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 8:15:59 AM   
mossicon


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/13/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
£67 is an absolutely astonishing price for a game, with or without a manual. I expect that War in the East will be similarly priced? These sort of prices are utterly unrealistic for most gamers, and will only have negative repercussions on sales and Matrix's reputation. I was looking forward to playing this game but could never justify spending this much. Very disappointed.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 5
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 8:26:11 AM   
Bamilus


Posts: 972
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
I just question the business decision. I support Matrix and small developers but there comes a point when I can't keep forking out lots of money for one game. Steam and other places have shown that lower prices -> more volume -> better profits. If the forums are any indication of volume for BTTB then Matrix will be very disappointed. I'd reckon they would make more by putting the game $60 simply by volume increases.

Especially with a global recession happening I am confused about the pricing. Oh well, we can vote with our pocketbooks and hopefully they will get the idea that $80 games aren't acceptable for most people, regardless of "quality" (except in rare circumstances).


_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to mossicon)
Post #: 6
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 8:39:42 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4426
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
Especially with a global recession happening I am confused about the pricing.



It is very simple. The developers are paid in AUD and the non Aussie banks stuffed you're economy. The Aussie banks were not hurt and so the FX rate has moved in favour of the AUD.

-


(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 7
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 8:41:22 AM   
Bamilus


Posts: 972
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
Especially with a global recession happening I am confused about the pricing.



It is very simple. The developers are paid in AUD and the non Aussie banks stuffed you're economy. The Aussie banks were not hurt and so the FX rate has moved in favour of the AUD.

-




I'm fairly certain that has nothing to do with it. A developer isn't going to screw over most of its potential market just because it has a stronger currency.


< Message edited by Bamilus -- 5/27/2010 8:43:06 AM >


_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 8
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 1:05:17 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
To be clear, the printed manual has nothing to do with how we would set the base price in this instance. That would be generally covered by the additional $10 cost of the physical copy.

The decision on a printed manual here was based on two issues. First, 200 pages is our limit for manuals that fit in the box and are affordable to print with our normal printer. This came in just over that and frankly we had some bad experiences with the WITP AE manual using the printer in China that we really did not want to go through again.

Second, printing a manual of this size and getting it back would take at least six weeks from the time we had the manual ready to print. In the case of WITP AE for that large manual it ended up taking more like three months and we had that manual finished much earlier before release than the BFTB manual. We would have had to delay this release at least a month and possibly more depending on what happened with the printer.

We decided that given how things went with the over 200 pager in WITP AE, it was not worth an additional month or more of somewhat unpredictable delay in the release of an already finished game. I apologize to those who really prefer a printed manual, I'm generally in your camp but we have to evaluate this with each release.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 9
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 2:22:59 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
Game sold for 90$ should come in a big box, with a thick printed manual and some extras.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 10
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 2:23:20 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4426
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
I'm fairly certain that has nothing to do with it. A developer isn't going to screw over most of its potential market just because it has a stronger currency.



The thing is you are not getting screwed. In other circumstances you're USD$60 games have cost me AUD$120.00. I don't get some discount for being on the other side of the Pacific. Its global trade.

This game costs me AUD $90.00. Over here that is a normal price for a quality game. For us the price has not gone up nor down. The price increase only applies to foreigners. Its global trade.

-


-




(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 11
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 2:33:43 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
Especially with a global recession happening I am confused about the pricing.



It is very simple. The developers are paid in AUD and the non Aussie banks stuffed you're economy. The Aussie banks were not hurt and so the FX rate has moved in favour of the AUD.



Joe,

I posted a fuller reply to your similar comment in the Price thread on this game, but the appreciation in the AUD has substantially more to do with the poor fiscal position of the U.S. than banking problems.

If you take a look at the graph, the AUD is actually WEAKER now than it was pre-GFC. The graph starts in April 2008.

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/index.html?s=FOREX_AUDUSD&v=dmax&t=l&a=0&w=7

Furthermore, had Panther hedged it's currency exposure, then the FX rate move would have had no impact on pricing.








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bink -- 5/27/2010 2:34:22 PM >

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 12
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 2:37:04 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The decision on a printed manual here was based on two issues. First, 200 pages is our limit for manuals that fit in the box and are affordable to print with our normal printer. This came in just over that and frankly we had some bad experiences with the WITP AE manual using the printer in China that we really did not want to go through again.

Second, printing a manual of this size and getting it back would take at least six weeks from the time we had the manual ready to print. In the case of WITP AE for that large manual it ended up taking more like three months and we had that manual finished much earlier before release than the BFTB manual. We would have had to delay this release at least a month and possibly more depending on what happened with the printer.

Regards,

- Erik


Erik,

But how come it was possible to supply a manual with Airborne Assault, which cost a lot less?

In regard to the printing delay, couldn't you ship printed manuals (at extra cost if you wanted), after releasing the game?

Thanks

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 8:02:00 PM   
Wolfe1759


Posts: 798
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Shropshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

To be clear, the printed manual has nothing to do with how we would set the base price in this instance. That would be generally covered by the additional $10 cost of the physical copy.

The decision on a printed manual here was based on two issues. First, 200 pages is our limit for manuals that fit in the box and are affordable to print with our normal printer. This came in just over that and frankly we had some bad experiences with the WITP AE manual using the printer in China that we really did not want to go through again.

Second, printing a manual of this size and getting it back would take at least six weeks from the time we had the manual ready to print. In the case of WITP AE for that large manual it ended up taking more like three months and we had that manual finished much earlier before release than the BFTB manual. We would have had to delay this release at least a month and possibly more depending on what happened with the printer.

We decided that given how things went with the over 200 pager in WITP AE, it was not worth an additional month or more of somewhat unpredictable delay in the release of an already finished game. I apologize to those who really prefer a printed manual, I'm generally in your camp but we have to evaluate this with each release.

Regards,

- Erik


With a 200+ page manual and 3 additional supplemental manuals / guides I personally would only buy the game with a printed manual, and as with WITP:AE would be prepared to pay for it.

If you released BFTB with a printed manual, which from your post wouldn't actually require any additional increase in the price I may well be tempted to buy it even if there was a delay in getting the physical version as buying physical and download would be no more expensive than physical only and I could still start playing while waiting for my manual to arrive with the physical part of my order.

The manual was one of the things that for me justified the price of WITP:AE

_____________________________

"In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 9:00:32 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
I can completely understand how a printed manual can justify the additional cost of the physical copy. We also know that some customers really prefer physical copies and appreciate the manuals. We do intend to do printed manuals for some games, but that option is not always realistic for every game. We've had experience in the past with situations where customer had to wait more than two weeks after release for the printed manuals to arrive and for physical copies to ship and be ready. That was not a good experience for anyone and we'd rather not repeat it, so our rule in general is that if the printed manuals don't fit in the box and we can't get them printed in time for the release, we will generally not go forward with them.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Wolfe1759)
Post #: 15
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 9:03:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
But how come it was possible to supply a manual with Airborne Assault, which cost a lot less?


You mean the original that was sold by Battlefront or Highway to the Reich, which we sold? We did have printed manuals with Highway to the Reich, but the differences between the market in 2001/2002 and now are so great in many respects that I'm not sure where to start. Highway to the Reich for example also had a full retail release and received coverage in major PC magazines (which were still in existence and covering PC wargames at that point). It was just a different world really.

With that said, we could have printed a manual for BFTB, but it would not have been full color, it would not have been available until weeks or possibly a couple of months after the release and this would have delayed all physical shipments which would have made the pricing complaints pale by comparison based on previous experience. It would also not have fit in the box as 200 pages is the limit on that. All those things together combined with our experience with the WITP AE manual convinced us to go ahead with a normal physical copy with PDF manual on this one.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 16
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 10:14:18 PM   
Wolfe1759


Posts: 798
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Shropshire, UK
Status: offline
Erik

Thanks for the response.

I appreciate it is a personal preference but for me once a game has a manual of over 100 pages I want to be able to read and digest it away from the computer screen, maybe it comes from being a board wargamer at heart.

If there is a Collectors Edition in the future then maybe I'll put my money down.

I'm sure I'll be spending the money with you on something else in the near future anyway.

_____________________________

"In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 17
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 10:20:26 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

... our rule in general is that if the printed manuals don't fit in the box and we can't get them printed in time for the release, we will generally not go forward with them.

Regards,

- Erik


I think saying that the box is a limitation is not a very strong argument - there are large format DVD style boxes available. From memory, Day of Defeat and Medal of Honor: 10th Anniversary came in large DVD style boxes.

In regard to the delay, I don't think it matters, since physical purchasers get the download immediately and get the manual when it is ready.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 18
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 10:36:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
I think saying that the box is a limitation is not a very strong argument - there are large format DVD style boxes available. From memory, Day of Defeat and Medal of Honor: 10th Anniversary came in large DVD style boxes.


Actually, we already use the largest available DVD box (it's extra thick) that can both hold a manual and multiple CDs. We have yet to find a thicker one that meets both requirements and we have definitely looked. The page limit on that box is 200 pages for our manual size.

quote:

In regard to the delay, I don't think it matters, since physical purchasers get the download immediately and get the manual when it is ready.


We used to think that too, experience proved us wrong. I'm assuming you were not around then, but believe, even when they have the download people hate to wait more than two weeks for the physical copy to ship after they order it.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 19
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/27/2010 11:48:36 PM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Actually, we already use the largest available DVD box (it's extra thick) that can both hold a manual and multiple CDs. We have yet to find a thicker one that meets both requirements and we have definitely looked. The page limit on that box is 200 pages for our manual size.


With all due respect Erik, you may have overlooked offers like these, then:

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-10010/Case-Literature-Mailers/DVD-Literature-Mailers/
(provides space for 2" of literature)

http://www.uline.com/BL_1454/DVD-Case-Mailers

Packaging ain't a problem these days, IMHO, especially since many shipping supply specialists are able to produce ANY size/dimension you want.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 5/28/2010 12:29:15 AM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 20
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 12:19:13 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline
Carton with space for 4" of literature:

http://www.brownandpratt.com/shop/PDLM1184-C407.aspx

That should provide enough space for a manual with 200+ pages (the picture just shows the 1" version, I think, so don't let that confuse you).

Page with 3 different versions:

http://www.brownandpratt.com/shop/C407.aspx
(providing space for 2", 3" or 4" of literature)

Same here, they're showing the 1" kit on the 4" page:

http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?pid=10023407&aitm=BPI-DLM1183&apid=10023407

4" should be way enough space for a fat manual.
So, unless you'd tell me that 4" ain't enough, I'd have to assume that something went wrong during your research.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 5/28/2010 12:35:32 AM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 21
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 1:33:58 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline
I would pay $100.00 for a game that came with a three ring binder, color, maps, keyboard overlays etc...

I would pay possibly even more for that kind of game if the manual was a full 8.5x11. My eyes just aren't what they use to be, and I really dislike PDF manuals, but that's just me.


(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 22
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 1:39:42 AM   
FredSanford3

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline
Granted, you'd have to pay, but presuming you don't want to burn up the cartridges on your printer (if you have one), why not just send the pdf to Kinko's if it's important to have.

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 23
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 4:00:58 PM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline
*Bumping this for Erik*

Pls check my posts above, thnx.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 5/28/2010 4:01:23 PM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to FredSanford3)
Post #: 24
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 7:19:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37270
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Goodguy,

Those look like mailers - it's true that those would allow the box to be shipped with a larger manual. What I'm talking about is larger DVD boxes themselves, that can fit both a larger than 200 page manual and multiple CDs in the DVD box itself. We separated the WITP AE manual from the box and it didn't work quite as well as we had hoped. We are still looking for a better solution for WIF though, so the links are appreciated and we will consider them as a mailing solution.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 25
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 8:00:45 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

I would pay $100.00 for a game that came with a three ring binder, color, maps, keyboard overlays etc...

I would pay possibly even more for that kind of game if the manual was a full 8.5x11. My eyes just aren't what they use to be, and I really dislike PDF manuals, but that's just me.




Like this?
http://www.precisionmanuals.com/ProductCart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=16

They charge $ 170,- just for the game documentation. But it's about 1500 pages iirc.

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 26
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 8:26:59 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Erik,

I can't find a listing for the large cases (probably 1" thick) that some games have come in.

However, would this work?

http://www.polylinecorp.com/DVD-VHS-combo-case.asp

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 27
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 8:41:24 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Erik,

What is an E-book manual? What file format is it in?

Thanks

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 28
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 9:07:46 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink

Erik,

What is an E-book manual? What file format is it in?

Thanks


bink, mostly what I've seen are PDF format, though I haven't bought this game yet.

rick

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 29
RE: Printed Manual? - 5/28/2010 9:10:57 PM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink

Erik,

What is an E-book manual? What file format is it in?

Thanks

The manuals are in pdf format. The manuals come in two flavors... E-Book (aka screen) that allow you to move between sections via bookmarks and hyperlinks, and a version that is set up for the printer.

_____________________________


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> Printed Manual? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.281