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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:25:15 AM   
hgilmer3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Analog Kid
This is also a huge disappointment because I am going into the hosipital tommorrow and likely to be there for more than 3 weeks. And this was to be my distraction if it was released before late Thurs :( :(


I hope everything will be OK for you. I don't know if you are in America and Memorial Day is coming up. So, if you are in the hospital and cannot get to the forums, please let me say an early Memorial Day thanks

As for any additional thoughts from me, I just hate this for everyone concerned that is disappointed. I don't have a lot of experience with Panther Games, but from all accounts they are a great company and of course the Matrix people are great, too, so it just has a feel that we are all beating up on them.

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Post #: 91
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:25:35 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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On a 2nd note though if this game came with a random battle generator instead of some editor that only computer science majors can use I would probably pay the $80 since random generators keep games alive for a long long time. But built in scenarios and even player made ones just get old and samey and the feeling of been there done that comes along quite early in the life of those types of games.

It's like Combat Mission and Steel Panthers and even Panzer Command Kharkov I've never played one of those built in scenarios or player made ones on any of them. I've always used the battle and/or campaign random generators in them. I still do to this day so shows they give the games a lot more longevity than built in scenarios do.

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Post #: 92
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:28:39 AM   
jomni


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Great idea.  Random battle generator will make the game last longer.

< Message edited by jomni -- 5/27/2010 2:29:52 AM >


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Post #: 93
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:47:45 AM   
bairdlander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau



Anybody remember paying $80 U.S. for Gary Grigsby's War in Russia for the Atari 800 back in 1983? I bet some of you do...




I do as well as several other titles at the time.I remember one store in particular that charged me $70 for a Battle of the Bulge game.Anyway considering the games of back then were about the same price,i dont see what the big deal is.

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Post #: 94
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:53:50 AM   
Max 86


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I can understand the sticker shock issue but I feel that it comes down to price per hour played/enjoyed. When I bought WitP at $80 it became the only game I played for probably close to a year. Its quality and enjoyment more than justified the cost.

However, if I was a person that bought 10+ games a year or more then I would be hesitant to purchase. No reason to pay that price for a month or two of fun before the next MUST HAVE wargame is released and you switch to the next obsession.

I'm just not that kind of person. I purchase 2-3 titles per year max and still go back to old tried and true favorites like COG, WitP, Puresim and others.

I think each person should look at their game budget for an entire year and see if this price is less than that. One excellent $90 game that has many months of play value is less expensive than 5 $40 games that you only play for a month then discard.

I see this game much in the same light as WitP or COG, its something I will dive into for months and before its over it will cost me about 10 cents per hour of great fun. Count me in. I may have to save money from a couple of paychecks but this is a must buy for me and the good things I have heard about Panther Games gives me the confidence that this will be a good long term investment.

One last comment. Anyone who thinks they are going to buy the ULTIMATE wargame for $40 is fooling themselves. By not buying this title you are sending out a message that it is not in a company's interest to develop these high quality games because they are too expensive and yet we will all b!tch and moan all day long about the inadequacies and bugs of cheaper less developed titles. We can't have it both ways.

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Post #: 95
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:22:30 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

£56 and £63? With tax that's £66 and £74 - really - OUCH!

I SERIOUSLY cannot buy a game that costs that...Way to much money. Good luck Dave - but I'm checking out. Very sad.


What he said. I've loved this series to date, but it's never had the 'one game to the exclusion of all others' feel that might justify any comparison to WitP, particularly considering Matrix/DM insistence on avoiding the 'local' pricing that is pretty much standard elsewhere. Normal 'full price', maybe, but no more.

Sorry, Panther and Matrix.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 5/27/2010 3:27:45 AM >

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Post #: 96
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:23:52 AM   
Fred98


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With most things in life if you want it badly enough the price doesn't matter !

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Post #: 97
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:29:13 AM   
Laramie

 

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I lurk often, post seldom - buy all the Panther games and a number of others here. I completely understand Matrix and Panther Games' reasoning and it certainly is their investment and their experience, which I have to respect. But like many here, thinking the sim would be in the $55-60 range, the actual price is out of my range for now. I had intended to purchase it at release, partly because of anticipation, but also to show support. Regrettably, that's not going to work at least for now as I am priced out as many others here.

I do hope that the business side of Matrix and Panther have considered carefully the price and volume relationships, and have seen enough track record from their other experience to have confidence that they can make a better profit from the high price, and not from increased volume.

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Post #: 98
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:40:19 AM   
jomni


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Increased volume means more players.
More bugs discovered.
More complaining grognard nitpicking fanboys.
More developer time in bug fixing.
Less profit.
Lol!

Anyway because of this issue I think I will start playing HTTR again. Who know's I might change my mind about the price of Buldge with all the improvements.

< Message edited by jomni -- 5/27/2010 3:43:34 AM >


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Post #: 99
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:41:59 AM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

I can understand the sticker shock issue but I feel that it comes down to price per hour played/enjoyed. When I bought WitP at $80 it became the only game I played for probably close to a year. Its quality and enjoyment more than justified the cost.

However, if I was a person that bought 10+ games a year or more then I would be hesitant to purchase. No reason to pay that price for a month or two of fun before the next MUST HAVE wargame is released and you switch to the next obsession.

I'm just not that kind of person. I purchase 2-3 titles per year max and still go back to old tried and true favorites like COG, WitP, Puresim and others.

I think each person should look at their game budget for an entire year and see if this price is less than that. One excellent $90 game that has many months of play value is less expensive than 5 $40 games that you only play for a month then discard.

I see this game much in the same light as WitP or COG, its something I will dive into for months and before its over it will cost me about 10 cents per hour of great fun. Count me in. I may have to save money from a couple of paychecks but this is a must buy for me and the good things I have heard about Panther Games gives me the confidence that this will be a good long term investment.

One last comment. Anyone who thinks they are going to buy the ULTIMATE wargame for $40 is fooling themselves. By not buying this title you are sending out a message that it is not in a company's interest to develop these high quality games because they are too expensive and yet we will all b!tch and moan all day long about the inadequacies and bugs of cheaper less developed titles. We can't have it both ways.

your kidding right? so you are saying that $40 games are played for a month then discarded? No bugs for high end games aye? I play alot of wargames I have seen it all. I won't buy this title based on the price, am I sending a message?

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Post #: 100
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 3:58:38 AM   
Fred98


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[quote=ComradeP]
I'm really not sure why Matrix is increasing prices….
[/quote]


I suspect that this is a reference to SSG’s Across the Dneper and to Panther Game’s Battles for the Bulge.

Both companies are Australian.

The Global Financial Crisis should be renamed the North Atlantic Financial crisis. Our banks were better managed and the crisis had only a minor affect here.

As a result the AUD has strengthened against other currencies.

For us the game costs AUD$90.00. This is the same price as most new games whether or not they be wargames.

The price rise for foreigners can be blamed on the bankers in Wall Street and in the City of London!

-


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Post #: 101
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 4:04:27 AM   
Max 86


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quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

I can understand the sticker shock issue but I feel that it comes down to price per hour played/enjoyed. When I bought WitP at $80 it became the only game I played for probably close to a year. Its quality and enjoyment more than justified the cost.

However, if I was a person that bought 10+ games a year or more then I would be hesitant to purchase. No reason to pay that price for a month or two of fun before the next MUST HAVE wargame is released and you switch to the next obsession.

I'm just not that kind of person. I purchase 2-3 titles per year max and still go back to old tried and true favorites like COG, WitP, Puresim and others.

I think each person should look at their game budget for an entire year and see if this price is less than that. One excellent $90 game that has many months of play value is less expensive than 5 $40 games that you only play for a month then discard.

I see this game much in the same light as WitP or COG, its something I will dive into for months and before its over it will cost me about 10 cents per hour of great fun. Count me in. I may have to save money from a couple of paychecks but this is a must buy for me and the good things I have heard about Panther Games gives me the confidence that this will be a good long term investment.

One last comment. Anyone who thinks they are going to buy the ULTIMATE wargame for $40 is fooling themselves. By not buying this title you are sending out a message that it is not in a company's interest to develop these high quality games because they are too expensive and yet we will all b!tch and moan all day long about the inadequacies and bugs of cheaper less developed titles. We can't have it both ways.

your kidding right? so you are saying that $40 games are played for a month then discarded? No bugs for high end games aye? I play alot of wargames I have seen it all. I won't buy this title based on the price, am I sending a message?


Yes, the message you are sending is that it is not economically feasible for a developer to make a game of this detail and depth. And also, yes, lots of gamers buy a multitude of games throughout the year only to be dissatisfied and dump them a short time later. My son is one of the worst!.

No I did not say high end games were without bugs just that these games usually have longer lifespan on player's computers.

If it is not economically feasible for some people to pay that price, I certainly understand. However there are gamers out there that complain about inaccurate OOBs, rates of fire and armor penetration values on and on and on. For this price I expect a very detailed and researched game with any bugs being worked out by the development team.

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Post #: 102
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 4:05:12 AM   
bairdlander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

[quote=ComradeP]
I'm really not sure why Matrix is increasing prices….




The Global Financial Crisis should be renamed the North Atlantic Financial crisis. Our banks were better managed and the crisis had only a minor affect here.

As a result the AUD has strengthened against other currencies.

For us the game costs AUD$90.00. This is the same price as most new games whether or not they be wargames.

The price rise for foreigners can be blamed on the bankers in Wall Street and in the City of London!

-



Same result here in Canada.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 103
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 4:22:12 AM   
Bamilus


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Greece is in the North Atlantic? 

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Post #: 104
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 4:41:42 AM   
Laramie

 

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The rationale that the sim will be long lasting is quite reasonable. However, for that same reason, the price is reminding me that I have not nearly exhausted COTA yet.

Eugene

< Message edited by Laramie -- 5/27/2010 4:44:21 AM >


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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 4:59:45 AM   
Fulton


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I don't think it is about beating them up for it. We are all here because we want games like this to succeed.

Some are frustrated at the fact that they can't have it. Or perhaps they decided not to.

While it may make sense that they have priced it at this level, there is one CLEAR fact. They have not done a good job justifying such pricing to me. WITP(AE) spent a serious amount of time explaining their pricing and what went into it - I had no trouble with that.

Perhaps it is open modding that makes it worth it?

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Post #: 106
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 5:16:07 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fulton
They have not done a good job justifying such pricing to me.


It is an Australian company.

For Australians the price is the same as for most other wargames and mainstream games. The AUD$ price is normal. Its neither higher or lower

Why should Australian developers have to pay for Wall Street excesses ??????

-



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Post #: 107
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 5:21:38 AM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fulton
They have not done a good job justifying such pricing to me.


It is an Australian company.

For Australians the price is the same as for most other wargames and mainstream games. The AUD$ price is normal. Its neither higher or lower

Why should Australian developers have to pay for Wall Street excesses ??????

-





I didn't know Wall Street was located in Athens

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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 5:28:56 AM   
aknaton

 

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This was a given buy. But 65 euros? I honestly dont know.

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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 5:36:17 AM   
V22 Osprey


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Not saying this game is worth any less, but in WitP:AE you atleast got a full color 300 page manual. Plus, it has a great level of detail that covers the ENTIRE War in the Pacific, not just a single battle. I think this is why most are having trouble putting BftB in the same price point as AE. Like I said, I'm not devaluing the game, just making a few observations.

Also, I thought this new series was suppose to bring new players into the engine? From the looks, not even some of the previous customers aren't even buying the game. Not saying the game is not worth the price, but this could be a disaster for Matrix.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 5/27/2010 5:38:22 AM >


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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 5:50:50 AM   
Fulton


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quote:

Why should Australian developers have to pay for Wall Street excesses ??????


If they want me to buy (I'm not entirely sure they do) they will need to come up with something better than that.



< Message edited by Fulton -- 5/27/2010 5:51:39 AM >


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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 6:16:26 AM   
bink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

The Global Financial Crisis should be renamed the North Atlantic Financial crisis. Our banks were better managed and the crisis had only a minor affect here.

As a result the AUD has strengthened against other currencies.

For us the game costs AUD$90.00. This is the same price as most new games whether or not they be wargames.

The price rise for foreigners can be blamed on the bankers in Wall Street and in the City of London!


The weakness of the USD against the AUD has little to do with the banking problems in the USA, but rather the worsening fiscal position (i.e. deficits), and concerns about the continuing reliance of the U.S. on foreign financing (by purchasing US Treasury securities).

The Australian dollar is being supported by the strong fiscal position of the Australian economy, as well as the capital inflows by foreign investments in resource projects and assets (i.e. Chinese purchases of Australian coal).

Furthermore, a prudent business hedges itself against currency movements which could affect it's business. If Panther has an exposure to the USD (if that is it's principal market), then it has 2 choices:

1. Raise US prices if the AUD strengthens (to maintain constant AUD unit revenue), but at the expense of lower total revenue (as US sales are lower due to higher prices). Note, that if the AUD weakens, then the Australian business can have a windfall gain.

2. Hedge it's currency exposure to protect against adverse currency moves. This can also mean (depending on the hedging method), that it will not receive windfall gains.

By not hedging currency exposure, Panther is most directly responsible for the higher US prices.

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Post #: 112
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 6:25:19 AM   
jomni


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quote:


Perhaps it is open modding that makes it worth it?


How open is the modding? Can it do all theaters in WW2 or even beyond? I'm actually waiting for a modern combat version of this game. This should blow away the ones offered by Shrapnel games.

If their game engine is so good, why don't they develop sims for the military to subsidize the cost of production and R&D. This will then lower the price commercial version of the game. A win-win situation for all.


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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 7:34:40 AM   
Sarkus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

The Global Financial Crisis should be renamed the North Atlantic Financial crisis. Our banks were better managed and the crisis had only a minor affect here.

As a result the AUD has strengthened against other currencies.

For us the game costs AUD$90.00. This is the same price as most new games whether or not they be wargames.

The price rise for foreigners can be blamed on the bankers in Wall Street and in the City of London!


The weakness of the USD against the AUD has little to do with the banking problems in the USA, but rather the worsening fiscal position (i.e. deficits), and concerns about the continuing reliance of the U.S. on foreign financing (by purchasing US Treasury securities).

The Australian dollar is being supported by the strong fiscal position of the Australian economy, as well as the capital inflows by foreign investments in resource projects and assets (i.e. Chinese purchases of Australian coal).

Furthermore, a prudent business hedges itself against currency movements which could affect it's business. If Panther has an exposure to the USD (if that is it's principal market), then it has 2 choices:

1. Raise US prices if the AUD strengthens (to maintain constant AUD unit revenue), but at the expense of lower total revenue (as US sales are lower due to higher prices). Note, that if the AUD weakens, then the Australian business can have a windfall gain.

2. Hedge it's currency exposure to protect against adverse currency moves. This can also mean (depending on the hedging method), that it will not receive windfall gains.

By not hedging currency exposure, Panther is most directly responsible for the higher US prices.


None of which has anything to do with the pricing of a PC game. Or did you not notice that New Zealand developed Distant Worlds managed to be offered for far less then what is being asked for here? Or Australian developed AtD? If you want to compete in the US market or European market or wherever, you offer your product at a price that is comparable with other items you are competing with. The relative financial situations have nothing to do with it. $60 is about as high as you can go for a PC or video game in the US and not get a big negative reaction. I'm sure Matrix knows that and so does Panther. They've made a choice here. I personally disagree and won't be buying the game and I'm not alone in that. But ultimately, whatever happens, it will be Matrix and Panther that will bear the burden of the decision, not me.


< Message edited by Sarkus -- 5/27/2010 8:17:23 AM >

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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 7:40:34 AM   
Bamilus


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I don't think the global economic situation had much to affect the price of the game. I think what Erik said is correct. They thought "Hey, well we added a bunch of stuff from COTA so lets just add $20 to the price." Whether that was a good move or not is yet to be seen, but seems that is why they the price is higher. 

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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 8:04:40 AM   
OlegHasky

 

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An impressive explosion of people stamping their feet.

The game is a Ferrari (as Erick said).
I compare it to a model.. An art work..
You can buy a good ww2 vignette done by an artist, and entwine it with your thoughts for hours week by week.
The same way I treat the series.. I had observed, that I am pulling out more enjoinment just cruzing arround it , and observe, and anylizing.. that from actual play.
I often pause my games (have a lot of saves of each game) -I am returning to them, and anylizing.. admire.. like a great model (but thats just me )

This model is oustanding.. accurate, and vast. Surely worth the money.

Personally, I think with all this concerns about the price. Hardcore commanders like woodin will eventually find the money, and bypass the initial iritation.
Diffrent case might be with all the others.. Here you can start to count loses.


quote:

I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough

And thats just too far out cholo.

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Post #: 116
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 8:14:26 AM   
Sybma

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aknaton

This was a given buy. But 65 euros? I honestly dont know.


Same here, been waiting a long time for the game, but this is just to much.

Bailing out.

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Post #: 117
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 8:15:08 AM   
Hexagon


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What i can say, another game with "improved" price, i have dejavi, it remember to me Across Dnper release... i start to think that this is a calculate tactic, think in it, they sold the game at very high price allways somebody buy it, after this arrive a discount period and the game have the cost that it need to have in the release day, well, they win more money because finally they sold the number of copies that they expect buy they buy X with a plus of 20$, for every buyer that do it before the sales they win extra 20$ for me this is the true question about the high prices. I have the money but i have a limit and i am not an animal and can control my impulses.

PD: i am waiting for sales, i am not crazy to pay more than 60 euros for a game even when in other places can buy even better games cheaper



< Message edited by Hexagon -- 5/27/2010 8:16:23 AM >

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Post #: 118
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 8:21:07 AM   
Perturabo


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Here in Poland, stupid computer game addicts are paying 120PLN (that's 120$ in work) for new games. Normal people are buying games when the prices fall to 60-40PLN (60-40$ in work). I'm talking about crappy mainstream games here.
So, I think it shouldn't be a problem for people who have minimal wages of 7+$ to buy an ultra-rare premium niche game like COBFTB for 80$.

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Post #: 119
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 8:24:30 AM   
mossicon


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I think Steam have proved that selling games at lower prices leads to more sales and less piracy. Matrix's approach to pricing is as archaic as the hardcore crowd who can afford these kind of prices. I mean, check this out:

http://www.wolfire.com/humble

People paid whatever they wanted for a bunch of independently developed games. It raised over a million dollars!

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Post #: 120
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