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RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:08:24 AM   
Lieste

 

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I don't object to the price at all, and I earn very little... being mostly 'just' a dad.

Once I've taken care of an unexpected life-change  I'll be saving up again & buying, and will be happy to do so.

(in reply to Ola Berli)
Post #: 61
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:12:20 AM   
hgilmer3


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I hate this for Erik.  Most of us love Matrix and love these games we get here.  I know I do.  I own AACW, GGWBTS, FOF, WITP, WITPAE, COG, COGEE, BIN, BOBII....

I haven't tried the games in this line, but I was thinking of taking the plunge here.  I opened the thread up and saw the "guess" and I thought, cool.  Then I saw others saying, "No, it is XX.XX!" and I thought, "Oh Sheeyatt! That's crazy!"  I am only being honest.

As I said, I hate it for you guys.  I know you don't price it like this lightly because you knew what the reaction would be.  I really want to help you out and keep you alive and I do indeed understand you have to be able to price it at a certain level or possibly go out of business. 

But, if I buy this right now, I have to absolutely know 100% for sure that I'll play it and play it a long time and many times over.  And I can't know that.  I put aside games all the time that a lot of people rave about.  It really has to catch me.

I don't know if you'll do a demo, but without a demo, it is out of the question - I can't buy the game.  With the demo, I could at least be reasonably sure of what I'm getting myself into and can only blame myself for paying so much.  Without the demo, I really would have to blame myself if I didn't like it.

Sorry, guys. :(  I so want to help you, but times are tight. 

(in reply to Ola Berli)
Post #: 62
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:18:38 AM   
DerLvR


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I don't really feel I'm adding anything constructive by posting this, however, I was really looking forward to getting this title, but at that price I am unable to do so. It's a shame, and I do realise that it's not Matrix's fault I can't afford to buy it at the price they've set, but that is the reality for me at this moment in time. If there is a sale at any point, I will buy, but until then, I hope those that can afford, enjoy their purchase.



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Post #: 63
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:23:34 AM   
PirateJock


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I thought there was supposed to be a demo - it was definitely being talked about end of last year ... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1428368&mpage=10

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Post #: 64
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:28:08 AM   
Sarge


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At $105 for DD ‘n physical to my front door I agree with Pirate, I’ll need to see a demo first .

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Post #: 65
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:33:57 AM   
loyalcitizen


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Can't the European players pay with Paypal, give the address of their "Summer Home" in the states , and avoid the VAT?

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Post #: 66
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:40:01 AM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
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From: Minnesota, USA
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I have every game in this series, plus Matrix has seen my cash for a great many others including WITP and the Admiral addition. But no way am I paying $79.99...goes back on the wishlist till a sale comes out for a more reasonable price.

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Post #: 67
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:51:59 AM   
Rosseau

 

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I couldn't justify Across the Dnepr II, but I can justify buying this game for the reasons Erik listed in his post.

Anybody remember paying $80 U.S. for Gary Grigsby's War in Russia for the Atari 800 back in 1983? I bet some of you do...

But it bodes poorly for Matrix when guys like Sarge balk at this game. We expected around $60 and it was $80. Some people literally don't have the extra $20. For most, the $20 hurdle is just psychological, but it's going to kill a lot of sales. And forget bringing any newcomers into the fold. That will simply not happen.

I am going to download this tonight and see if a certain someone who can't afford the extra $20 will accept my help.

If I was Matrix/PG, I would monitor sales and make an adjustment if necessary. There is no shame in doing that. The problem would be pissing off the people who paid $80. I would just be happy seeing the joy around here when the price goes to $60 for a U.S. download and the place goes nuts!


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Post #: 68
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:57:46 AM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

"With the demo, I could at least be reasonably sure of what I'm getting myself into and can only blame myself for paying so much. Without the demo, I really would have to blame myself if I didn't like it."



Like many posters i'd love to buy this, but unlike many i probably will buy it, but it doesn't feel right, not without a demo. I'm well into your engine, especiially with the enhanced editors, but who knows if i'll like the 'feel' of this episode?

I took a risk buying COTA originally - It wasn't cheap and was completely didferent from what i'm used to but after reading MarkShot's exhaustive AAR/Review i took the risk and have gotten more than my moneys worth out of it. Since BFTB seems to incorporate a lot of advancements i am going to pay the extra, part of which i'm happy to pay as a tip for COTA, and part of which i'll feel uneasy about.

My chief reservation is not price, which i can afford, especiially for a quality outfit like yours, but because of the lack of demo. I will be taking a risk, again, with BFTB, because i'm not sure i'll like the context. There's something crazy about late war german ersatz formations and equipment that puts me off (like canon totting elephants in Medieval Total War 2 (joke) ), similarly American combat formations are so different from what i'm used to that i might just put the game down until some British scenarios are available.

I don't know, it shouldn't be that a return customer is put off this way.

I played the demo of HTTR and i didn't sit well. Admitedly i only joined the series at COTA, also maybe it was the older engine that put me off, but i'm not sure. I felt something similar with AGEODs ACW and Napoleonic titles vs their original AWI/French and Indian War title(s). Something didn't 'click' for me with their ACW, maybe it was the ridiculour level of micromanagement. Ditto with their Napoleonic title, i think i played 2 or 3 of the scenarios then uninstalled it! Possibly it was the change of graphic artist, or something else supposedly trivial.

After that i haven't gone back for their Frederick the Great title - they don't seem to have ironed out the AI, so they've lost a customer.

Panther on the other hand seems to have everything going for it, title 4, steady improvement, but no demo?! WTF. Your game promises to be amazing but i don't fancy buying it tonight, not without a demo to try out in the morning.

(in reply to hgilmer3)
Post #: 69
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:03:44 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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A few points in response to comments here and elsewhere:

1. The pricing on BFTB has nothing to do with the merger.

2. The price on COTA did increase by $10, I believe that was over a year ago? That was done to help support the ongoing development of BFTB. If you look at the release dates of HTTR, COTA and then BFTB you will see how many years it takes for Panther to develop each one.

3. The recent change in currency conversions hasn't helped. The COTA prices were set after our last price update when our holiday sale ended. I think the Euro and Pound have lost substantial value against the dollar since then, which is also why the converted price for BFTB (the price of each new game is set at the conversion rates when it releases and then updated periodically after that when we update all price conversions) looks higher for customers paying in Euros and Pounds, whereas it really is only $20 higher in US dollars.

4. There will be a demo, but it will be a few weeks yet before that's ready as far as I know.

5. We hope that development cost and time will be lower on the next title, but it's too early to really say anything for certain about that. We also hope that with the full editor suite, BFTB will have more post-release content available than the previous titles too.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 70
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:05:56 AM   
Analog Kid


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I'm a Veteran on disability. I loved HTTR and paid 40, I bought COTA at 50 even tho I didnt like the Theater of Conflict it covered. I am a huge fan of this engine but I cant afford 80. I've been messing around with computer games since the Commordore 64 and very few games excite me like the Command Ops engine. But If it never drops to 50 or below, it will never be in my budget. Sorry Dave, you have a fantastic product but it cost too much.

This is also a huge disappointment because I am going into the hosipital tommorrow and likely to be there for more than 3 weeks. And this was to be my distraction if it was released before late Thurs :( :(

< Message edited by Analog Kid -- 5/27/2010 1:09:04 AM >


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Post #: 71
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:12:13 AM   
Llyranor


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Don't worry, there'll be a demo. You can just wait for it.

As for me, just bought and downloading. There's a premium, yes, but Panther Games is one of the rare few developers whom I absolutely feel deserve it. Not many games deserve such a price, but I have no qualms about paying up for the most realistic (and my absolute favorite) strategy engine out there. Those new gameplay additions from the 'what's new' thread sound fantastic.

I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the game's setting as well, because I've been really enjoying the books I've been reading on the battle so far.

Maybe I'm just biased, because I'm actually planning a trip to the Netherlands with my gaming buddy whom I'm currently 1v1'ing in Highway to the Reich. Visiting the Ardennes eventually is inevitable, as is Greece/Crete. And it's these games that have suckered me into being enthralled by those battles. I've spent more money on books on the subjects than I have on the actual games! Crazy!

I realize the price is too much for many, but Matrix can just periodically decrease the price over time (or during sales) to hook in more gamers. I don't think this is the type of game where you either buy it on release date or it's dead, and the word of mouth should be extremely strong to maintain sales over a long period of time, hopefully. This isn't going to be the typical game that'll be sold for 10 bucks in a month, so not sure Matrix is actually making a mistake (a shame for games, yes, but speaking business-wise) by pricing it this way (if they can snatch as much from the day1'ers as they can, then get more and more buyers as the price drops over time). I understand you guys, though, I'd be outraged too if it were almost any other game/series.

... though, wasn't there supposed to be a physical manual??

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Post #: 72
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:12:36 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
That is a lot of money for a PC game.



You talk like my wife. She thinmks I play "computer games". I don't. I play wargames.

-


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Post #: 73
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:14:56 AM   
loyalcitizen


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What this launch really needed was news that a 3rd party Mod Community was already working on a full estab switcheroo to France 1940, for example.
The Wargamer interview timing seems like Matrix wanted to lessen the sticker shock by exciting people about the endless modding possible, but most don't have the patience or knowledge.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 74
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:20:44 AM   
GBS

 

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The price of this game is what I spend to take my wife out to eat at a decent place. It should provide many hours of enjoyment. I'm going to pay it but ......It better be good. I'm lucky , I know, and I feel for you guys that are strugeling with the price. But.. I beleive in the free enterprise system and the price will find it's correct level.

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Post #: 75
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:24:28 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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Wow....this is disappointing. Now I know why my previous requests for pricing went unanswered in the past:)

I'm not going to bash Matrix or the developer since it is up to them to set their pricing models. I can't say I agree with it,, but again ultimately their choice and our choice whether we purchase it or not. I guess they are gambling enough people will pay $80 versus more buying it at a better price like $60. I do wonder if it is worth it, for example let's say the goal was to make $400. At the current price, it would take roughly 5 people to buy it. Let's say it is only $60, that would require roughly 7 people to buy it to roughly make the same money. Doesn't seem like a big ratio between the two. I would think the quantity of people buying it at $60 would far outweigh selling it at the higher price. Now with all the bad press and bad feelings, it will make it even harder. Oh well, time will tell.

I can't say I will never buy it, but defintely went from a first day buy to now just a consideration...


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Post #: 76
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:33:46 AM   
Fulton


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Maybe if this were the only wargame released this year.

That price is just insulting and makes me angry especially after supporting development by buying previous games
- right or not it's the emotion I feel anyway.

I'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

Have fun - I wont be back for this one.

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Post #: 77
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:44:52 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
That is a lot of money for a PC game.



You talk like my wife. She thinmks I play "computer games". I don't. I play wargames.

-




Gee thanks thats a nice thing to say

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 78
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:46:21 AM   
vonRocko

 

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I assume the game equivalent of a "ferrarri" will run as bug free as the car.We will see. But at this price, you can count me out also.

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Post #: 79
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:51:56 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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I have decided to go ahead and purchase the game. $80 is a lot of money for a PC game when the industry standard is 40-50. Paying that much for the game is not really out of my budget, it is just more the principal of it.

My purchase decision mostly is based on the quality of the previous Panther titles. There are few companies I would do this for. This engine however I feel is the best in all of wargaming. That reason alone is why I choose to give this much money for a title.

I will also have very high future expectations for this game in terms of patches and new scenarios. Normally I am pretty understanding about patches. However if they are going to ask for this level of commitment for us then they have to keep it at their end as well by providing post release content on a regular basis.

One more suggestion I have is maybe coming up with a strategy guide like was done for HTTR but releasing it for free to everyone who can provide a serial number for the game. That would be a $20 'value' and would soften the blow a little.

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Post #: 80
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:55:19 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I will also have very high future expectations for this game in terms of patches and new scenarios. Normally I am pretty understanding about patches. However if they are going to ask for this level of commitment for us then they have to keep it at their end as well by providing post release content on a regular basis.

I just wonder with the potential loss in customer base, how much support will happen if the main argument for increasing the prices was because of production costs. In addition, it was great the editors were released with the game, but if only a small crowd ends up buying, who is going to put a lot of effort in making all these customizations?

Sadly, I think all the anger and discontent being raised is mostly because we are all disppointed we can't pull the trigger on a game we have been waiting years to have come out.

< Message edited by Grim.Reaper -- 5/27/2010 1:56:33 AM >


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Post #: 81
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 1:58:03 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I will also have very high future expectations for this game in terms of patches and new scenarios. Normally I am pretty understanding about patches. However if they are going to ask for this level of commitment for us then they have to keep it at their end as well by providing post release content on a regular basis.

I just wonder with the potential loss in customer base, how much support will happen if the main argument for increasing the prices was because of production costs. In addition, it was great the editors were released with the game, but if only a small crowd ends up buying, who is going to put a lot of effort in making all these customizations?

Sadly, I think all the anger and discontent being raised is mostly because we are all disppointed we can't pull the trigger on a game we have been waiting years to have come out.


Despite me purchasing the game I still think this price is a bad idea and as much as I hate to say it and much of a Matrix fanboy as I am, I fully expect this to be the last Panther title.
Dave already has limited time due to his commitment to the government of Australia and unless this game makes enough money to make sense to him as a second job I don't see the series being continued.

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Post #: 82
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:00:21 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I will also have very high future expectations for this game in terms of patches and new scenarios. Normally I am pretty understanding about patches. However if they are going to ask for this level of commitment for us then they have to keep it at their end as well by providing post release content on a regular basis.

I just wonder with the potential loss in customer base, how much support will happen if the main argument for increasing the prices was because of production costs. In addition, it was great the editors were released with the game, but if only a small crowd ends up buying, who is going to put a lot of effort in making all these customizations?

Sadly, I think all the anger and discontent being raised is mostly because we are all disppointed we can't pull the trigger on a game we have been waiting years to have come out.


Despite me purchasing the game I still think this price is a bad idea and as much as I hate to say it and much of a Matrix fanboy as I am, I fully expect this to be the last Panther title.
Dave already has limited time due to his commitment to the government of Australia and unless this game makes enough money to make sense to him as a second job I don't see the series being continued.


You might be right, especially with the pricing issue and bad comments being made. That certainly can't help. This is what I meant in my earlier post, is all this negativity and reduced loyal customers not buying it worth the extra $20? Only time will tell.

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Post #: 83
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:09:39 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loyalcitizen

What this launch really needed was news that a 3rd party Mod Community was already working on a full estab switcheroo to France 1940, for example.


Someone from the developer correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the CotA estabs are included in the Bulge game. Anyone who wants to work with the Axis and Western Allies, circa 1941, will have to get out his hammer start from scratch.


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Post #: 84
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:14:22 AM   
Adam Parker


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My board wargames cost anywhere from $50 to $100 so I don't see the issue here for a brand new ie: non scenario pack title. This is the whole campaign here.

My only concerns are that this is a PC game so what might the bugs be and as I said, I'm already committed to some board game purchaesd. I'm mired in trafalgar right now - go figure for this land lubber!

Sure for some the upfront cost will be an issue - no doubt.

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Post #: 85
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:15:26 AM   
jomni


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Sad.  I really liked the game engine while playing HTTR. No experience with COTA.  But I didn't play the game as long as WITP.  I'm thinking if it's just about the Battle of the Buldge, the amount of content won't be that extensive right?  It may be historically accurate and realistically modelled but it's just a small theatre.  How many Battle of the Buldge engagements are there?  How many sceaniors?  Can we create battles in other theaters and time lines? 

Sorry would have bought this game on impulse when it's cheaper. At this price, it has just been bumped down in the priority list a little further.

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Post #: 86
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:17:16 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loyalcitizen

Can't the European players pay with Paypal, give the address of their "Summer Home" in the states , and avoid the VAT?


Buy it from the US store page and use your Paypal account.

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Post #: 87
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:21:14 AM   
Panther Paul


Posts: 667
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From: Newcastle, NSW, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

I thought there was supposed to be a demo - it was definitely being talked about end of last year ... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1428368&mpage=10


Hi,

We have done some preliminary work on the demo.

Now that the game is out we will start in earnest, we wanted to base it on the final code as we did not want to release a buggy demo.

At the moment we are planning a full featured demo, i.e. with both single and multi-player enabled and no time limits. The only limit will be the one scenario it comes with. And no, it wont play any of the release scenarios!


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Post #: 88
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:22:50 AM   
blastpop


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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg

Actually, I think Matrix should bite the bullet, swallow the pride and *quickly* announce some nice posting "Due to the overwhelming feedback of our loyal customers we are adjusting our pricing on Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge"...You have spoken and we have listened.  Please support Matrix and Panther games by purchasing this and other titles....blah...blah...blah".   Think it is obvious this is turning into a negative fiasco and sales are obviously going to be lower than expected.  If it is done quickly...this will just all be a minor blip.



I agree too. At this price point I will be VERY picky about the game and what people are saying for quite a while before I even consider buying. It better be darn near perfect... Other wise I'll save my shekels.

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Post #: 89
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 2:23:01 AM   
emerson

 

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Oh well... I was really looking forward to playing this over the long weekend, but guess I'll be saving up some more money for a little while... I've just been looking forward to this title for to long to completely pass it up.

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Post #: 90
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