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RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 9:58:35 PM   
TonyAAA


Posts: 140
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From: Arlington, TX
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$79/89?  Ouch.

I'm a huge fan of CotA, but that's simply too much for me to spend as well.

Guess I'll just buy some other games and hope for a really good Christmas sale.

(in reply to htuna)
Post #: 31
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:03:45 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

£34.99 for DD and £39.99 for physical shipment with printed manual. That's my guess.


Lol you were waaaaaay off by about 1/2, but, I would have preferred your price.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 32
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:07:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33966
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Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve.

I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included.

With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.

The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 33
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:07:30 PM   
wodin


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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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I'm out....

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Post #: 34
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:15:08 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

I just wanted to weigh in on the price.

Erik's comparison to WitP is a sound one. Games like this are well worth the price. Especially in the light of the garbage that mainstream developers release for $60. Paying an extra $20 for a good, solid game is well worth the cost in my opinoin.


It's not just paying an xtra $20 it's paying $80 for ONE game plus tax and if you want a physical copy that's another $20 after shipping. So that comes to around $100 and that will sure buy a lot of bargain bin $5-$9 games from Steam, Gamersgate, Impulse and GoG.

Making History II and Storm over the Pacific are coming out real soon as well. I would wager both of them together wouldn't cost more and we'd get a lot more gaming.

I'd have paid $49.99 immediately for this and thought about $59.99 but not $80-$100 I don't even play HTTR or COTA anymore anyway.

(in reply to Chad Harrison)
Post #: 35
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:20:43 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10169
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I'm going to see how much NWS end up selling it for....fingers crossed.

Next game to look forward to then is CM Normandy.

Eric I understand where your coming from...but I think it's flawed....you will sell far more copies if you reduce the price to at least between £45 and £50 than the amount you will sell at its current price.

In todays economic climate people just don't have that sort of money to spend on 1 game.

I really feel cheated out of my favourite wargame series because I do not have the finances to buy it...I'm disabled and can't work so the sort of money your asking is huge to me...

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/26/2010 10:27:42 PM >


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Post #: 36
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:25:16 PM   
boatrigm


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I was looking forward to this release after picking up HTTR & COTA but it's just too much money. These game prices are approaching the cost of WITP AE and seems to be heading toward the norm and I don't like it.

Too much for me....I'm out of here.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 37
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:25:56 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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@ Erik: What good is it to put a price you say is required for this type of game if hardly anyone is going to buy it? What's the use of producing it if hardly anyone is going to buy it. It's like you made a great movie but you want $30 at the gate above and beyond the regular ticket price to see it. How many people do you think are going to go see it? When making a price you also have to make one that the market is going to accept and pay. I think the list of non-buyers is growing pretty fast and should show you that you've made an incorrect decision this time. With this kind of price you'd have to have a lot of die hard fans to pay it and for you and developer to make a profit from those miniscule sales. I'll also say that the WitP game offers up a lot more than this game in in both detail and micromanagement and value for time spent playing it without even having to play BftB I think I'm pretty right on with that statement.

(in reply to MajFrankBurns)
Post #: 38
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:29:00 PM   
Chad Harrison


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns

It's not just paying an xtra $20 it's paying $80 for ONE game plus tax and if you want a physical copy that's another $20 after shipping. So that comes to around $100 and that will sure buy a lot of bargain bin $5-$9 games from Steam, Gamersgate, Impulse and GoG.

Making History II and Storm over the Pacific are coming out real soon as well. I would wager both of them together wouldn't cost more and we'd get a lot more gaming.

I'd have paid $49.99 immediately for this and thought about $59.99 but not $80-$100 I don't even play HTTR or COTA anymore anyway.


I guess it depends on how many games you buy though. For me, I will buy two or three games a year. Not because of limited funds, but limited play time and/or interest in great games. I have come to the opinion that 'Okay' and 'Good' games are pretty easy to find, but great games are very, very rare. When one comes along, such as this, spending an extra $20 or so more than I would for an 'Okay' or 'Good' game is an easy decision.

Sure, I could buy 100 games from Steam for the same price, but those are not games that I want to spend my very precious free time on.

But to each his own. These days it is very understandable for tight hobby budgets. My issue though is time to play.

(in reply to MajFrankBurns)
Post #: 39
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:35:14 PM   
DBeves

 

Posts: 401
Joined: 7/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve.

I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included.

With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.

The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series.

Regards,

- Erik


Well Erik - price is not a matter of judgement in some respects - you cannot charge simply what YOU think its worth - that has to meet up somewhere with what people are willing to pay. I would say you have missed that by a wide margin. I hate to say it but maybe if this is the price you have to charge to make a game like this then perhaps you have answered your own question.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 40
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:36:31 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10169
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: online
I know its going to be fantastic but I honestly hand on heart can't afford that sort of money...if I could I'd buy it...I'm not even refusing to buy as some kind of protest to the price...

I can't see how its good business sense even... surely you will sell far more copies if the game was £49.99??? I imagine the extra money you've added to the price your losing even more due to people not being able to buy it.



< Message edited by wodin -- 5/26/2010 10:39:55 PM >


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Post #: 41
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:38:29 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 550
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It sure is a stiff price, considering that most large titles these days go for 50€ or around, but I guess PG are a small outfit and have been working on this for a long time, so they need to calculate that in.

Long time fans of the series (like myself) will buy anyway, but what is worrying is that the price is sure to put some potential new players completely off, at least until it's on sale. I would have posted about it on some other forums I frequent where there's plenty of old-school wargamers, but now I don't know, they will just b*tch about the price...


< Message edited by stian -- 5/26/2010 10:40:03 PM >

(in reply to Chad Harrison)
Post #: 42
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:44:40 PM   
CptHowdy

 

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hehe so all that time and effort put into making youtube videos and battlefield tours just went out the window. anyone that was maybe interested by your marketing has just clicked that x in the top right hand corner, never to return.

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Post #: 43
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:45:37 PM   
sabre100

 

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Thank God I could afford to buy it - BUT the price is way to steep for a game as I already mentioned. Yea it maybe the best game ever but it's too much to fork over for a game IMO. I don't see the logic here as other's have put it already you would think Matrix would do market research and see if people would be willing to get it or not at that price point. What good is it if you have 100 people that buy it at $80.00 or you potentially have 500 people that buy it at $50.00 Let me do the quick math here:

100 x $80.00 = $8,000.00
500 x $50.00 = $25,000.00

See the difference, IMO it is just bad judgement call on Matrix and Panther games. They will realize it when they see the sales numbers come in and will have no choice but to lower the price to make up the development cost or just take a loss and hopefully use it as lessons learned. I wish them the best I like Matrix and have bought most of their games before. However this one is a hard pill to swallow. Maybe some time in the future but not now.

< Message edited by sabre100 -- 5/26/2010 10:47:54 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:47:13 PM   
Arsan

 

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This has gone from my "day one purchase" list to my "wait until next Christmas discount campaign" list.
And i'm a Panther games fan since RDOA
I really think you are doing a very bad service to yourself putting a price like this.

(in reply to Shadrach)
Post #: 45
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:56:14 PM   
Sheytan


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I was interested in this title as well. Looks very slick. However, WITP AE is the only title I have every spent that much of a game. Frankly I have been visiting GOG.com and picking up oldies but goodies for 5 bucks. Currently playing Arcanum in fact. I will spring for this title if something is done regarding the pricing, as it stands however it is too rich for my blood.

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Post #: 46
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 10:57:50 PM   
tgb

 

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I never properly delved into CotA.  I figured I'd wait for this instead because of the improvements.  I just re-installed CotA, since it's already paid for, and will spend the $50 I had put aside for this week into Elemental when the beta opens up again.

(in reply to Arsan)
Post #: 47
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:07:07 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

spend the $50 I had put aside for this week into Elemental when the beta opens up again.


Yeah I had forgotten all about Elmental guess I will become a me too on that one as well for $50 bucks.

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Post #: 48
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:12:22 PM   
nicdain

 

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Sadly the price is high even in euros, although the currency conversion gives us some advantage in respect to US people. I have to consider seriously if and when to buy the game. I honestly was looking forward to it so much, since I consider the best operational wargame around, but I'm also a big fan of Combat Mission and some releases from this series are coming out in the near future. Given the reduced budget for games I can allocate this year, I will have to think a lot before making a choice.

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Post #: 49
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:16:01 PM   
tgb

 

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Erik:

A suggestion. Would it be feasible to produce a "stripped down" model for a price close to the norm? Perhaps eliminate the editor, which I and many (most?) others have no interest in, the video tutorials, which most don't watch more than once anyway, and dare I say it, even paring out  a couple of scenarios? Then you could call the version released today a "collector's edition", and justify the higher price.

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Post #: 50
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:26:36 PM   
gabeeg


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Actually, I think Matrix should bite the bullet, swallow the pride and *quickly* announce some nice posting "Due to the overwhelming feedback of our loyal customers we are adjusting our pricing on Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge"...You have spoken and we have listened.  Please support Matrix and Panther games by purchasing this and other titles....blah...blah...blah".   Think it is obvious this is turning into a negative fiasco and sales are obviously going to be lower than expected.  If it is done quickly...this will just all be a minor blip.


< Message edited by gabeeg -- 5/26/2010 11:29:22 PM >


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Post #: 51
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:28:43 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg

Actually, I think Matrix should bite the bullet, swallow the pride and *quickly* announce some nice posting "Due to the overwhelming feedback of our loyal customers we are adjusting our pricing on Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge"...You have spoken and we have listened.  Please support Matrix and Panther games by purchasing this and other titles....blah...blah...blah.   Think it is obvious this is turning into a negative fiasco and sales are obviously going to be lower than expected.  If it is done quickly...this will just all be a minor blip.



I agree with gabeeg. Let there be a price reduction to $49.95 My pocketbook is waiting patiently.

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Post #: 52
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:30:12 PM   
Wolfe1759


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Was thinking about buying, then I saw the price

And there is no printed manual, with WITP:AE I got 300+ pages of glossy colour. Admitidly this means there is no real point in buying the physical version but I object to paying £65+ (when VAT is added in) for a download no matter how good the game might be.





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Post #: 53
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:31:42 PM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

I just wanted to weigh in on the price.

Erik's comparison to WitP is a sound one. Games like this are well worth the price. Especially in the light of the garbage that mainstream developers release for $60. Paying an extra $20 for a good, solid game is well worth the cost in my opinoin.

Really? 79.99 for the whole war in the Pacific, vrs $80 for one battle? I know it has scn, but come on!!!. Uhm.....no thanks.

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Post #: 54
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:34:25 PM   
elmo3

 

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I just spent more than half the price on dinner for the family.  Sorry to hear it will be too much for some but it's worth it for the many hours of enjoyment the game will provide.

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Post #: 55
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:42:46 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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[sung to the tune of I'm a Believer by the Monkees]

Then I saw the price
and I couldn't believe it
such a price
left doubts in my mind
I'm in awe ewwww I couldn't believe it had to leave it
then I cried

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Post #: 56
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:43:55 PM   
axisandallies


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I just spent more than half the price on dinner for the family.  Sorry to hear it will be too much for some but it's worth it for the many hours of enjoyment the game will provide.

Hmm, lets see. GGWITE is due out soon, SOTP is due out soon, CWWI, down the road...I would bet people that people who buy this game, and I'm sure it's a good game, won't buy the above mentioned games, you might want to change your banner.

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Post #: 57
RE: Price? - 5/26/2010 11:49:47 PM   
Ola Berli


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We are into a recession, tuff times for most.

The big question now is will War in the East be $ 100....??? We can only wait and see.

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Post #: 58
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:05:46 AM   
loyalcitizen


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Was expecting $70, like WitP cost me, so now I will have to do without the celebratory 6-pack for my first night of BftB.

(in reply to Ola Berli)
Post #: 59
RE: Price? - 5/27/2010 12:07:21 AM   
htuna


Posts: 591
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From: Boston, MA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre100

Thank God I could afford to buy it - BUT the price is way to steep for a game as I already mentioned. Yea it maybe the best game ever but it's too much to fork over for a game IMO. I don't see the logic here as other's have put it already you would think Matrix would do market research and see if people would be willing to get it or not at that price point. What good is it if you have 100 people that buy it at $80.00 or you potentially have 500 people that buy it at $50.00 Let me do the quick math here:

100 x $80.00 = $8,000.00
500 x $50.00 = $25,000.00

See the difference, IMO it is just bad judgement call on Matrix and Panther games. They will realize it when they see the sales numbers come in and will have no choice but to lower the price to make up the development cost or just take a loss and hopefully use it as lessons learned. I wish them the best I like Matrix and have bought most of their games before. However this one is a hard pill to swallow. Maybe some time in the future but not now.


Excellent analogy, and by the looks of posts might not be too far off... Personally I'm more interested in War in the East, but if that is also the same high price, I will have no interest...

I think you have the people who have money to burn and love the games.. and can afford to buy, and go for it.. that's great..

then you have the people who are careful how they spend their money, love the games, but are selective (wait for sales, buy less games).. but could be tempted and break down.. but at this price, don't think that would happen..

Then you have impulse buyers as well.. at this high price you will get none of those.

(in reply to sabre100)
Post #: 60
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