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Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 8:30:10 AM   
Pocus


Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/22/2004
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Hello,

I have questions, you have answers?

I'm trying to make the jump and buy the game, but there are some things I wonder about...

First, I don't understand how there can be a satisfying behavior for civilian ships, if you can't, as the state department forbid them to deploy in some systems or areas. Unless there is a Deep Blue AI behind them that is. Some examples of things they can't guess, or will do which they should not do:

a) don't mine or exploits a given gas cloud or planet. Reasons: because there is a pirate base around OR there is a stealthy enemy fleet around OR I just don't want to protect this specific corner of the galaxy OR there are enemies planets between this particular zone and the rest of my empire.

b) It seems you are constrained to a specific size for your ships, at start at least, I have read 200 pts for military ships. But this limit don't apply to some supposedly civilian ships, like a supply ship? So what would prevent me from working around the system and build big, heavily armed civilian ships and use them as military ships? I think I saw something called supply ship which was huge somewhere, and it had guns!

c) who build the various 'stations' and refineries? I know they are owned by the private sector, so it means the private sector has construction ships? Or (weirdly) it is state ships of mine that build these privately operated structures? Not a biggy, but I'm still trying to draw the line between private and state, without having the game.

I like the basis of it, this private, independent sector, but I fear it has a kind of 'lemmings crowd' mentality, and is a pain in the rear to protect, constantly, because of the bad moves it does.

_____________________________

AGEOD Team - Lead Developer
Makers of Empires, ACW2, EAW, WIA, WON
Post #: 1
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 9:03:36 AM   
fabio80mi

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 3/26/2010
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Hi and glad you're considering buying the game!
Despite some problems it is still well worth it, now to answer your questions:

There isnt any way yet to avoid some systems or areas, this has been suggested in the wishlists thread already by many, me among them in a very detailed post :P

a) You cant right now
b) Not exactly correct, the restriction applyes to civilian ship but not to all designs (like the ones built on the planet....constructor,resupply and colony for instance).
However you're right you can abuse the system and use the resupply hull to build superarmed mobile fortress... the game itself doesnt prevent it, you simply should not abuse the system (the ai doesnt)
c) Planetary structure like starport or definsive bases are built by you and are considered state (under your control).
Your constructors build the mining stations and are under private control

Having a serious system to influence the ai with some very basic feature like
1)DONT GO in the systems i want to avoid(civilian+military)
2)DONT move military ships where i mark
3)ATTACK at will all those areas (paint attack)
will be a great addition that i believe in the future will be there :)

As a sidenote game is out only since 2 weeks and it already improved a lot and was good to start with, go ahead and buy it you wont regret it :D





< Message edited by fabio80mi -- 4/8/2010 9:07:33 AM >

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 2
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 10:35:18 AM   
vils

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
29eu isnt that much of a hustle in regards that DW is the best 4x space game ive ever played.. its your loss if you don't buy it, and it is going to be a loss for you trust me..


_____________________________

Take Command! - Lewis E. Lyle

(in reply to fabio80mi)
Post #: 3
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 11:33:54 AM   
barniewhittle

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/11/2008
Status: offline
... buy.

Amazing game totally different from anything else I've played. Has flaws of course but it looks like the rough edges are being smoothed off.

(in reply to vils)
Post #: 4
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 12:36:34 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37157
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Hi Pocus,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus
a) don't mine or exploits a given gas cloud or planet. Reasons: because there is a pirate base around OR there is a stealthy enemy fleet around OR I just don't want to protect this specific corner of the galaxy OR there are enemies planets between this particular zone and the rest of my empire.


As the state, you are in charge of their defense and have to eliminate those threats and escort them when necessary. With that said, they are not crazy - if they jump into an area with a threat they will try to avoid it and escape if it goes for them, but if there is a profit to be made they will try to go there. They will not, for example, try to trade with nations you are at war with and fly into defended hostile space (unless they were already on the way when the war broke out).

quote:

b) It seems you are constrained to a specific size for your ships, at start at least, I have read 200 pts for military ships. But this limit don't apply to some supposedly civilian ships, like a supply ship? So what would prevent me from working around the system and build big, heavily armed civilian ships and use them as military ships? I think I saw something called supply ship which was huge somewhere, and it had guns!


The resupply ship is actually a military ship and it uses the "base" limit rather than the "ship" limit. It can be a very tough ship if you design it to be so. You can also presently arm your civilian ships, but this will cause a lot of diplomatic problems as other empires expect your private ships to be unarmed.

quote:

c) who build the various 'stations' and refineries? I know they are owned by the private sector, so it means the private sector has construction ships? Or (weirdly) it is state ships of mine that build these privately operated structures? Not a biggy, but I'm still trying to draw the line between private and state, without having the game.


Mining bases are built by the state and then run by the private sector. The private sector builds its own ships, but not its own bases or stations.

It's not actually a big problem to protect the private sector. For one thing, you can automate a lot of your smaller military ships and they automatically escort and patrol strategic private sector stations and ships, so that you can focus on controlling your fleets for major military operations. For another thing, the private sector can stand the loss of a few freighters if a bad situation develops and you get warnings any time a ship is under attack, so you don't have to continually check everything, just respond when there is a problem. Similarly, automated construction ships will rebuild and repair damaged or destroyed bases if a pirate or enemy raid damages your resource network. You can also build defensive bases to help protect key resource/research/resort base areas.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 5
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 2:03:52 PM   
Pocus


Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
That's very interesting, thanks Erik. I'm not far from making the jump, but there is no hurry, as everybody (nearly!): "too much games, too few time" :)

About the main point, the private sector initiatives. I understand they will not jump into sectors appearing to be dangerous, but I'm curious what qualifies as dangerous for them. Either the AI cheats and can access the threat level of a given sector even without line of sight (and here I would not mind it cheating) or it is not and can only sees if it has ships around...  (i.e omni-view versus normal view...)

So, correlatively, it would mean that the AI remembers that the zone was a dangerous one, if it is not cheating... why? Because otherwise a few seconds after losing all sight of the said sector, another private ship would jump in and get whacked as his previous (and defunct) comrade. That's the 'AI bangs itself against the wall syndrome' I know quite well too ;)

What are your observations about that? I guess now several people can relate what happen with the private sector in the murkiest parts of space (the ones were there is profit and dangers...).

In anyway, this is a fascinating design I must say!

Thanks for the rest of answers.


_____________________________

AGEOD Team - Lead Developer
Makers of Empires, ACW2, EAW, WIA, WON

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 6
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 2:12:27 PM   
Gerth

 

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Hi, Pocus. I'm still learning the ropes (never even heard of the developer or game until last week) but have played a ton of rts and tb strategy games. Yeah, the ui is cumbersome and not fully optimized and the ai has a few bugs, but this is one of the coolest, most satisfying 4X's I've come across. The developers are on top of patches and seem likely to provide further content.

If you like cerebral, complex strategy games, this is a must.

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 7
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 3:24:01 PM   
mllange

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 2/5/2005
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Welcome, Pocus!

Don't look for objective opinions here... easily 80% of the posts come from a scattered few enthusiasts (with apparently endless free time on their hands) who may acknowledge 'some problems' but who will rush to convince you that the game is still worth it.

Personally, having played the game intensively for a few days and now having shelved it until we see how some of the issues are resolved, I would say to wait and give it some time, unless you are happy with frustration. The game is an exercise in frustration, for the reasons you mention and many more.

The enthusiasts have complete faith things will improve with patches - I say, wait and see. In the current state of development the game is a pleasant diversion (aka - something new) for a few days, but not a game I'll be picking up again unless we see major changes. Until then, back to EUIII - Heir to the Throne.

< Message edited by nim8or -- 4/8/2010 3:45:31 PM >


_____________________________

There's a simple answer to every complex question - and it's wrong.
-Umberto Eco

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 8
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 9:05:49 PM   
Xenoform21

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 1/14/2010
Status: offline
Hello Pocus,

So far, from what i've seen is that the Ai ships will jump to an explored planet, and will NOT know if it is friendly or not.

If pirates happen to be camping out at the planet or if another hostile race is guarding it they will attempt to escape back to your home system. They may attempt one or two more jumps to that planet ( I think this is because they had already plotted the course and were mid-jump when the exploration information from the first ship came in. ) but will not continue trading with that planet until some other vessel confirms the planet-space is safe for your ships again.

(in reply to mllange)
Post #: 9
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 9:41:53 PM   
HsojVvad

 

Posts: 1036
Joined: 3/24/2010
Status: offline
Hi there. Yes we can't control the private sector, and can get pissed if they get destroyed but put it this way. Does Han Solo go where he should go? Does he goes where it's forbbiden? Yes he does. Remember the private sector is just as greedy for money as we are in real life. If they go where it's dangerous and we can't protect them, well they are on their own.

I would be like you jaywalking across the street. The goverment tells you to cross only at cross walks, but do you? Of course not, so if you get hit you have to accept the consenquences. So if the ships go where they shouldn't be going, oh well, thier life not yours, not matter how much you don't want them to go there.

Tell us, what do you love about 4X space games, what don't you like? We can have a better idea in telling you if you should get this game or not. Bascially if you Like MOO and Hearts of Iron or Europa Universallis, you will like this game. It's a 4X space game like Masters of Orion or Galactic Civiliztion but plays like HoI or EU series in real time, but you can pause when ever you want. I say it's a must buy. Steep learing curve though.

(in reply to Xenoform21)
Post #: 10
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 9:49:47 PM   
Habadacus

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 3/31/2010
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This is my first post here, so I think I can offer a little objectivity. As for your specific concerns:

A) Much like the US government can't prevent civilian ships from going around the Somali coast to avoid pirates, you don't have that direct of control over your civilian fleet. However, you can pay protection to pirates, and/or assign military escorts to civilian ships, and the civilian ships themselves seem pretty good about warping away from threats. Also, if a civilian ship gets destroyed a new one will get bought at your shipyards, which generates revenue for your empire, so it's not that catastrophic to lose a few freighters here and there.

b) Ship sizes are tied to your shipyard tech, so as you improve that, you can build bigger hulls. It really doesn't take very long at all to get past the 200 limit. You're not fooling anyone by arming civilian ships, as they'll just piss off everyone they visit, and you can't control them anyway. You can put guns and armor, etc. on whatever else you like, but you'll still be paying the upkeep cost. That incredibly slow, 800 sized supply ship will probably cost you more to maintain than 4 200 size ships, and won't be able to respond to threats or evade a determined enemy as well, so you'll find that's not really a viable fleet doctrine to follow, although it is certainly possible.

c) In short the whole private/state thing works out pretty well. Although this game does have its share of shortcomings in its present state, I don't think you'll find any of this privatization to be a fun-killer. It does make the map a little chaotic because there's no way to filter out the civilian ships when you look at the big picture yet, but overall I think you'll find it works quite nicely.

I don't think you can go wrong buying this game if you're a fan of the genre, but then again, it might not hurt to wait for another patch or two. The game has the POTENTIAL to be one of the most awesome strategic space games ever, but IMO both the AI and the UI need a lot more polishing and refinement to achieve that. If DW were a banana I'd say it's still mighty green, and a little bit on the ugly side. However the guys behind it seem real focused on improving it so I'm hopeful for its future. If they can tighten and pretty it up they'll have a quite a hit on their hands.

(in reply to mllange)
Post #: 11
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/8/2010 10:55:30 PM   
Nephrinn

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 4/6/2010
Status: offline
You have to consider that space is about taking risks and there is no limit to the risk-taking when big money is involved. I could imagine a big corporation running on that premise alone and hiring pilots willing to take those risks of setting up mining stations in the fringes of space. That was exactly what happened during the age of exploration. The crew of those ships took big risks to set up trading posts in very remote, hostile, inhospitable areas and their respective nations could do little to protect them.

I also think that it's part of the strategy and challenge to protect these risk-takers, especially when there is profit involved. And remember, you don't have to go out of your way to protect them. They are the ones taking the risks, not you.

(in reply to Habadacus)
Post #: 12
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/9/2010 1:56:53 AM   
Vlad77

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nim8or

Welcome, Pocus!

Don't look for objective opinions here... easily 80% of the posts come from a scattered few enthusiasts (with apparently endless free time on their hands) who may acknowledge 'some problems' but who will rush to convince you that the game is still worth it.

Personally, having played the game intensively for a few days and now having shelved it until we see how some of the issues are resolved, I would say to wait and give it some time, unless you are happy with frustration. The game is an exercise in frustration, for the reasons you mention and many more.

The enthusiasts have complete faith things will improve with patches - I say, wait and see. In the current state of development the game is a pleasant diversion (aka - something new) for a few days, but not a game I'll be picking up again unless we see major changes. Until then, back to EUIII - Heir to the Throne.


I would counter that Codeforce and Matrix are rewarding the "enthusiasts with endless free time". And they are rewarding those of us to have busy schedules. I am a graduate student and a full time professional entertainer. So, do please be careful how you label the players of this or any other game. I would also point out that there IS a reason this game is receiving VERY positive feedback from hardcore gamers, and it is a simple one: the game IS good.

No flame intended. I have seen poor and marginal games that had promise just abandoned, or in the case of Lost Empire: Immortals or MOO3, or VTM: Bloodlines, FANS improve the game. Matrix and Codeforce have patched the game three times already. Bear in mind they are NOT EA or Atari, so sales of this game will never equal the sales of Dragon Age for instance.

The presence here of Erik and the devs and beta testers is a reassurance to us that this game will be the best 4X ever made. IMHO, it already is, but then, I am an enthusiast!

Second star to the right and all that ...

(in reply to mllange)
Post #: 13
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/9/2010 2:54:00 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Hello,

I have questions, you have answers?

I'm trying to make the jump and buy the game, but there are some things I wonder about...

First, I don't understand how there can be a satisfying behavior for civilian ships, if you can't, as the state department forbid them to deploy in some systems or areas. Unless there is a Deep Blue AI behind them that is. Some examples of things they can't guess, or will do which they should not do:

a) don't mine or exploits a given gas cloud or planet. Reasons: because there is a pirate base around OR there is a stealthy enemy fleet around OR I just don't want to protect this specific corner of the galaxy OR there are enemies planets between this particular zone and the rest of my empire.

While they won't mine in an enemy system, they certainly can mine near pirate or enemy systems. They could theoretically cross long distances for mining but in practice, they won't unless you are really short of a resource and then you'd want them to.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

b) It seems you are constrained to a specific size for your ships, at start at least, I have read 200 pts for military ships. But this limit don't apply to some supposedly civilian ships, like a supply ship? So what would prevent me from working around the system and build big, heavily armed civilian ships and use them as military ships? I think I saw something called supply ship which was huge somewhere, and it had guns!

You are constrained to a certain size only by your tech. This increases. You are correct you could theoretically put weapons on civilian ships but why would you, you can't control them for offensive purposes and empires don't like armed ships visiting them (unless I think you have a mutual defense pact). Furthermore, I believe adding any expense to the private sector only takes away from your taxes. You also are correct you can build a mobile base but that would be expensive or slow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus
c) who build the various 'stations' and refineries? I know they are owned by the private sector, so it means the private sector has construction ships? Or (weirdly) it is state ships of mine that build these privately operated structures? Not a biggy, but I'm still trying to draw the line between private and state, without having the game.

No, you build dedicated mines. The private sector will use them as they are more efficient than mining ships. However, mining ships also exist where you don't have dedicated mines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

I like the basis of it, this private, independent sector, but I fear it has a kind of 'lemmings crowd' mentality, and is a pain in the rear to protect, constantly, because of the bad moves it does.


I see the private sector doing strange things all the time but as a whole, it actually works quite well. My main complaint is that you have almost no influence on where they go. I would like the ability to declare systems off-limits myself. You can set escorts to act automatically and they do a pretty good job if left on auto. Manually setting up escorts is actually worse because they will follow the civilian ship into neutral territory causing a transgression but if you leave escorting fully automated, I have yet to see that happen.

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 14
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/9/2010 8:04:45 AM   
Pocus


Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
Thanks a lot to everybody, I appreciate the diverse feedbacks. One thing is sure, I'll buy the game, now I have to decide if this is now (while I have others games to finish) or in a patch or two 

_____________________________

AGEOD Team - Lead Developer
Makers of Empires, ACW2, EAW, WIA, WON

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 15
RE: Fence sitter with questions :-) - 4/9/2010 8:30:57 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
MR P
I truly understand the great games lack of time!
This game is both inexpensive and COSTLY, as it has great appeal and may steal time from your other joys! lol
In all seriousness, it has great interactive and adjustable play.. want more stars, no problem, less, thats great.. pirates? not so much? no worries matie, more war.. we can do that, a passifistic large builder game, yep.. gotthat one too.. ITS ALMOST TOO much ability to be adjusted, most of us just start out, but after a few dozen hours you start to see how much the game offers NOW, patches in hte future are great.. but this is a winner today.. lots of fun

(in reply to Pocus)
Post #: 16
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