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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 8:04:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
Perhaps this composite image will assist the debate.

Sorry Mr. Palmer, but the pics confirm Soryu, imho. Lots of technical reasons - flight deck overhang at bow and stern, deck 2 and 3 openings and length along the hull, % of spacing from the bow of the island, height to width ratio of the island. height of deck of the island, shape of stern, height and number of of decks under cover, and if ya get really gnarly about it, % ratio of an airframe to the island. Nope. Sorry, but this is Soryu.

Warspite1

There is a far more compelling technical reason for this being Soryu. If it is, then this is the first time I`ve got one of these questions right I`m with JWE, Brady etc


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 8:18:24 PM   
redcoat


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This is the original WW2 Japanese military news photo.



Perhaps someone could translate all the caption? I’ve only got a vague English description and the 1943 date I’ve already mentioned.


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 8:21:38 PM   
Minotaur


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Here is a picture of Zuikaku at roughly the same angle.



Minotaur






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< Message edited by Minotaur -- 3/30/2010 9:56:10 PM >

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 8:35:50 PM   
John 3rd


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The bridge demonstrates the class pretty easily to me...


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Post #: 34
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 8:47:41 PM   
Gilbert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
Perhaps this composite image will assist the debate.

Sorry Mr. Palmer, but the pics confirm Soryu, imho. Lots of technical reasons - flight deck overhang at bow and stern, deck 2 and 3 openings and length along the hull, % of spacing from the bow of the island, height to width ratio of the island. height of deck of the island, shape of stern, height and number of of decks under cover, and if ya get really gnarly about it, % ratio of an airframe to the island. Nope. Sorry, but this is Soryu.


And I am sorry, John, But you are wrong

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=9115.msg0#new

My friend Dan knows very well this picture

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Post #: 35
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:04:47 PM   
Local Yokel


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D'oh, just realised that in my original post I got my comment the wrong way round - what I intended to convey was that there is too much freeboard at the pointy end for Brady's picture to be Soryu.

The picture of Soryu I posted seems to be one of a series of at least three taken from a passing ship in Sukumo Bay in the spring of 1939. The aircraft visible are said to be 11-gata Type 97 attack planes, apparently with wings folded. I speculate that the aircraft shown in Brady's picture are the carrier's ready CAP, but even allowing for the fact that the Type 97 is an appreciably bigger aeroplane than a Zero, I still think that the aircraft visible in the questioned picture suggest that this is a substantially bigger vessel than Soryu.

Oh, and I note that Dan Kaplan says that this is Zuikaku at about the time of the Eastern Solomons battle.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:40:27 PM   
treespider


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Look at the base of the island...in particularly towards the bow ...there is a structure at the base of the island consistent with Shokaku class...whereas the on the Soryu the base of island has no structure towards the bow.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:44:30 PM   
Gilbert


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Here is one of Soryu at Tateyama Bay in 1938




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Post #: 38
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:46:55 PM   
Gilbert


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And one of Shokaku at Yokosuka 23/08/1941




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Post #: 39
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:47:20 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


This is the original WW2 Japanese military news photo.



Perhaps someone could translate all the caption? I’ve only got a vague English description and the 1943 date I’ve already mentioned.



I dont supose anybody can read the script?


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:49:49 PM   
Gilbert


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And finally one of Zuikaku at Bungo-suido 20/10/1941




Attachment (1)

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"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

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Post #: 41
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:50:11 PM   
chesmart


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There are a couple of Japanese players on these forums maybe they can help us solve this problem.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 9:59:55 PM   
fflaguna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Alright!! My turn to add some insight. Taking a look at this picture, we can try to measure the length of the ship based on the planes on the deck. There is an assumption made that the planes are pointing essentially straight down the center-line of the vessel. We measure the left-most plane to be approximately 15 pixels in length. We measure the ship to be approximately 400 pixels in length. If the plane and ship are both pointing in the same direction, then we can perform the simple calculation

400/15 = 26.667

Which gives us the ratio of plane-length to ship-length. Now we multiply the resultant 26.667 by the length of potential aircraft that the carriers should be carrying. I can't identify the planes, so here are all possibilities for ship-length:

Zero -- 26.667 x 9.06m = 241m
Val -- 26.667 x 10.2m = 272m
Kate -- 26.667 x 10.3m = 275m

Soryu has a length of 222m, and Shokaku has a length of 257m. If anybody can identify the planes on deck, we can do a little bit more and figure out max and mins of the angle the planes are facing away from the ship's center-line. These calculations can't be definitive until we can figure out what planes are on the deck, then we can do a little more and potentially rule out Soryu for being too short.

So can anyone identify any of the four aircraft on deck, or tell what the japanese doctrine says for angle away from center-line to store aircraft on the flight deck?

< Message edited by fflaguna -- 3/30/2010 10:02:14 PM >


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:01:48 PM   
Gilbert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


This is the original WW2 Japanese military news photo.



Perhaps someone could translate all the caption? I’ve only got a vague English description and the 1943 date I’ve already mentioned.



I dont supose anybody can read the script?



I can ask Gengoro-san to translate it. Now I remember I have this picture in my library. Reference is :

Kojinsha "Warships of the IJN" #6 p.57

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Post #: 44
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:07:55 PM   
Gilbert


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And now I remember I have a translation of this Kojinsha issue which says for page 57 :

Page 57. Autumn 1942. A silhouette photograph of ZUIKAKU. AA gun platforms have now been
fitted under the front of the flight deck and smoke is seen near the signal mast behind
the bridge. The features on the deck seen in the front of the picture indicate that this
ship is SHOKAKU around the time of the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands.
.

Thanks go to Brady for bringing this interesting topic and to all for your input

_____________________________

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"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

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Post #: 45
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:08:11 PM   
Brady


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That would seam to clear it up then, it would be interesting to see what the caption says.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:14:51 PM   
fflaguna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

And now I remember I have a translation of this Kojinsha issue which says for page 57 :

Page 57. Autumn 1942. A silhouette photograph of ZUIKAKU. AA gun platforms have now been
fitted under the front of the flight deck and smoke is seen near the signal mast behind
the bridge. The features on the deck seen in the front of the picture indicate that this
ship is SHOKAKU around the time of the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands.
.

Thanks go to Brady for bringing this interesting topic and to all for your input

So is it Shokaku or Zuikaku?

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:23:29 PM   
Gilbert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fflaguna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

And now I remember I have a translation of this Kojinsha issue which says for page 57 :

Page 57. Autumn 1942. A silhouette photograph of ZUIKAKU. AA gun platforms have now been
fitted under the front of the flight deck and smoke is seen near the signal mast behind
the bridge. The features on the deck seen in the front of the picture indicate that this
ship is SHOKAKU around the time of the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands.
.

Thanks go to Brady for bringing this interesting topic and to all for your input

So is it Shokaku or Zuikaku?


it is Zuikaku taken from Shokaku

_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

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Post #: 48
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:24:09 PM   
Minotaur


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Zuikaku picture taken from the Shokaku.


Minotaur

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:42:51 PM   
redcoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

That would seam to clear it up then, it would be interesting to see what the caption says.


Indeed. The caption supposedly confirms that the photo was taken in May 1943 - months after the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. I think Shôkaku and Zuikaku were still together at that time.



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Post #: 50
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 10:49:32 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

That would seam to clear it up then, it would be interesting to see what the caption says.


Indeed. The caption supposedly confirms that the photo was taken in May 1943 - months after the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. I think Shôkaku and Zuikaku were still together at that time.




Is the caption an original wartime caption or is the image and caption above from a post war source? If the former then its not only posable but likely the date and place are wrong'ish.


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 11:28:44 PM   
redcoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

That would seam to clear it up then, it would be interesting to see what the caption says.


Indeed. The caption supposedly confirms that the photo was taken in May 1943 - months after the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. I think Shôkaku and Zuikaku were still together at that time.




Is the caption an original wartime caption or is the image and caption above from a post war source? If the former then its not only posable but likely the date and place are wrong'ish.



According to the owner of the photo the Japanese caption is the original used by the Jap military in WW2. It is supposed to comprise a rousing ‘propaganda’ slogan and the date.

The Kojinsha book seems to have dated the photo as Autumn 1942 because of “features on the deck seen in the front of the picture.” Perhaps the author did not know about the date of the original ‘propaganda’ photo? In any case, the deck would presumably have had the same features in the Spring of 1943?


< Message edited by redcoat -- 3/30/2010 11:30:06 PM >


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/30/2010 11:53:40 PM   
Local Yokel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

The Kojinsha book seems to have dated the photo as Autumn 1942 because of “features on the deck seen in the front of the picture.” Perhaps the author did not know about the date of the original ‘propaganda’ photo? In any case, the deck would presumably have had the same features in the Spring of 1943?



In a 1943 photograph of Zuikaku I would expect to see some trace of the mattress antenna for the ship's air search radar atop her island. From memory, Zuikaku received this in December 1942 or thereabouts. The fact that there's no visible sign of such an antenna in the picture under discussion gives some support to it having been taken before 1943.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 12:52:33 AM   
redcoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

The Kojinsha book seems to have dated the photo as Autumn 1942 because of “features on the deck seen in the front of the picture.” Perhaps the author did not know about the date of the original ‘propaganda’ photo? In any case, the deck would presumably have had the same features in the Spring of 1943?



In a 1943 photograph of Zuikaku I would expect to see some trace of the mattress antenna for the ship's air search radar atop her island. From memory, Zuikaku received this in December 1942 or thereabouts. The fact that there's no visible sign of such an antenna in the picture under discussion gives some support to it having been taken before 1943.


I’d be interested to know when the Zuikaku received its mattress antenna. The Zuikaku was at sea for most of the Winter of 1942-43.

Zuikaku spent most of December 1942 in air combat exercises in the Inland Sea. She only spent a short time in port (Yokosuka) between 28th and 31st December. In fact, the Zuikaku does not seem to have spent very much time in dock until 11th June 1943 – when she went into the Kure Navy Yard dry dock until the 19th June.

The Shôkaku on the other hand was repaired and refitted at Yokosuka between 6th November 1942 and 28th February 1943.

Interestingly, the Shôkaku and the Zuikaku were sailing together on the 28th May, 1943. They had been temporarilly apart until 8th May. The two carriers were on their way to Yokosuka – where they stopped for a couple of days between 29th and 31st May.


< Message edited by redcoat -- 3/31/2010 2:56:48 AM >


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 2:06:35 AM   
Brady


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If this were published during the war the radar would of been touched up by the sensors.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 2:36:55 AM   
John 3rd


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You have to admit that the Japanese built some fine looking ships.  They just scream speed to me.  Nice vessels.


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 12:44:02 PM   
redcoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

The Kojinsha book seems to have dated the photo as Autumn 1942 because of “features on the deck seen in the front of the picture.” Perhaps the author did not know about the date of the original ‘propaganda’ photo? In any case, the deck would presumably have had the same features in the Spring of 1943?



In a 1943 photograph of Zuikaku I would expect to see some trace of the mattress antenna for the ship's air search radar atop her island. From memory, Zuikaku received this in December 1942 or thereabouts. The fact that there's no visible sign of such an antenna in the picture under discussion gives some support to it having been taken before 1943.


According to Monographie Morskie No. 3 the Zuikaku was fitted with a Type 21 GP radar (aka ‘ship mattress’) in June 1943 when she was in dock at Kure. The Shôkaku had already received its mattress antenna as part of her repair and refit at Yokosuka.

Interestingly there was someone with a camera on the Shôkaku on 27th May 1943. It was the IJN’s Navy Day and there was a ceremony on the Shôkaku which was photographed. I guess it is possible that the same person could have photographed the Zuikaku the next day before disembarking at Yokosuka the day after that.


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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 12:56:57 PM   
chesmart


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Redcoat Your knowledge and sources are impressive,I do not want to imagine the library you must have.

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RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 1:16:23 PM   
Gilbert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

The Kojinsha book seems to have dated the photo as Autumn 1942 because of “features on the deck seen in the front of the picture.” Perhaps the author did not know about the date of the original ‘propaganda’ photo? In any case, the deck would presumably have had the same features in the Spring of 1943?



In a 1943 photograph of Zuikaku I would expect to see some trace of the mattress antenna for the ship's air search radar atop her island. From memory, Zuikaku received this in December 1942 or thereabouts. The fact that there's no visible sign of such an antenna in the picture under discussion gives some support to it having been taken before 1943.


According to Monographie Morskie No. 3 the Zuikaku was fitted with a Type 21 GP radar (aka ‘ship mattress’) in June 1943 when she was in dock at Kure. The Shôkaku had already received its mattress antenna as part of her repair and refit at Yokosuka.

Interestingly there was someone with a camera on the Shôkaku on 27th May 1943. It was the IJN’s Navy Day and there was a ceremony on the Shôkaku which was photographed. I guess it is possible that the same person could have photographed the Zuikaku the next day before disembarking at Yokosuka the day after that.



Monographie Morskie is (as often) inaccurate and "Local Yokel" is (as nearly always ) right. Radar was fitted on Zuikaku in late november, early december 1942 at Kure.
Her TROM does'nt say it specifically but there was plenty of time to do this job :
"30 October 1942:
Return to Truk.

9 November 1942:
Arrive at Kure.

26 December 1942:
Depart Kure for Yokosuka."


Moreover, here is an image from "Maru Special #102 shot on 27/05/1943 showing Zuikaku Island with Type 21 Radar.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

(in reply to redcoat)
Post #: 59
RE: Name This!...(44) - 3/31/2010 2:27:54 PM   
jomni


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I know very basic Japanese but will try to decipher the text in the picture (Transcript of the text extracted from this site: http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=9115.msg0#new)

山本元帥の 死後  一度  前線  へ 傳わるや、将兵 は 烈火 の如き 悲憤  に 燃え、闘魂 は激しく盛上がった 。
瀉 真  は 闘士満々 暁 の 洋上 へ 出撃 する 我が 空母  (海 許 58) 

昭和 十八 年 五 月廿八日 〇〇 第九一一号、
昭和 十七年 十月 三日  第三種郵便物認可
読売 新聞 社

Once the (news of) Admiral Yamamoto's death was transmitted to the frontline, officers and men are furious as if burning, fighting spirit is intensely rising.
Photograph(?) is brimming with fighters on a sortie at dawn on the sea (from?) my aircraft carrier.

Showa 18th Year (1943) 5th month 28th day Issue 911
Showa 17th Year (1942) 10th month 3rd day 3rd class mail approval
Yomimuri Newspaper Company

Took some time as I am not familiar with the terms so have to look at the dictionary.
Looks like a postcard.  No mention of the ship's name. But the indication of Yamamoto's death means May 1943 is the plausible time the picture was taken as indicated in the caption.


< Message edited by jomni -- 3/31/2010 2:51:50 PM >


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