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RE: New Screenshot - 4/15/2010 7:20:28 PM   
Capt Cliff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

You could have an option to switch views like PZC

I like Nato symbols but others like figures

I would like to see the German WW2 symbols as well - like streets of Stalingrad.

M


Yes, the Streets of Stalingrad symbols would be sooooooo cooooooool!!!


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Post #: 31
RE: New Screenshot - 4/15/2010 8:43:12 PM   
lparkh


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Being a girlie non nato symbol guy I am now crying inside thanks to the henious laughter above.

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Post #: 32
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 2:13:49 AM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1493
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Being a girlie non nato symbol guy I am now crying inside thanks to the henious laughter above.


Just giving you a hard time - there's a stigma attached to the "cartoony" stuff by us grogs...

(in reply to lparkh)
Post #: 33
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 11:25:32 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4681
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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Most of the testers come from the AH, SPI, GDW boardgame era, where NATO symbols were pre-eminent. I remember AH's Longest Day used the German Army symbols - never could get my head round them.

The most important information needed to play the game are the numbers showing combat strength and Movement allowance, and the mouse tooltip on a hex that shows the distance from your railhead.

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Post #: 34
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 2:46:53 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Most of the testers come from the AH, SPI, GDW boardgame era, where NATO symbols were pre-eminent. I remember AH's Longest Day used the German Army symbols - never could get my head round them.

The most important information needed to play the game are the numbers showing combat strength and Movement allowance, and the mouse tooltip on a hex that shows the distance from your railhead.


For me the Longest Day counter symbols were, and still are the best that were ever produced. A game i still own and play. I also still have many AH,SPI and GDW games that i play regularly. Computer games, no matter how good, will never replace the sheer enjoyment of these wargames for me.




< Message edited by hart2412 -- 4/16/2010 2:47:20 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 3:40:51 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Hum, are you crazy...lol...I hated sorting counters, then the damn cat would get under the bed and screw up everything. Only thing now is I have to wake up early to get first dibbs on the computer from the wife...lol...

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Post #: 36
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 6:48:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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LOL

i remember one game we played, the map took up most of my friends family room, once we got it set up, we decided to forget the Finish part of the war, as I needed some place to lay down, to get to Germany !!!!

(I as the Germans took Poland and the Baltic states (trade one back to the Russian, to get a peace treaty, only he didn't noticed what that did to his line :), took France, and then NA, the Russian just sat and laffed at his Uncle, saying how bad he was, he replied, wait your time is coming, about 3 months later, when we got the Russian side of the war, two turns later, he was sitting in the corner crying, since he didn't have a Army left, the Allies concided the game that night :))

took about nine months to get to that point !

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Post #: 37
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 7:01:07 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Being a girlie non nato symbol guy I am now crying inside thanks to the henious laughter above.



That has nothing to do with girlie stuff lol. I play TOAW in NON NATO mode...
I had interesting debate on this...

I think that developers are too lazy to do this. No offense but offering only NATO symbols is insulting to general public.

Explanation that we all need to adapt / like NATO symbols is biggest nonsense that I've ever heard.

Developers these days are just not up to the task anymore and that's all.



(in reply to lparkh)
Post #: 38
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 7:13:38 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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Btw, I don't want to be misenderstood of course that I will buy this game - but there a lot cuting of corners already.

TOAW had, since 1998 option to switch to "3D" graphics if you don't like 2D NATO mode and don't tell me that TOAW 3D tanks and planes etc. were ugly. To me - that was OK and it felt more immersive moving that tank icon and not some ugly 2D NATO icon. lol

And already we don't have Murmansk, big German guns like Karl, Thor bridges, NAVY and what's next?

Regarding navy, I know that they didn't have a big impact on campaign but it's nice chrome. For example Germans sunk I think 60 USSR submarines in Baltic in 1941 -1942. I think. I've read it somewhere, I think in Osprey book.

Then there was some nice Ju87 sinking of some cruisers and destroyers in Black Sea etc. hehe.


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Post #: 39
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 7:14:10 PM   
The SNAFU


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Oh the grand old days of boardgames. There are so many Grogs who got their start on Avolon Hill and others. WITE often gets me thinking of my all time favorite AH game, Stalingrad.

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Post #: 40
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 7:45:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Btw, I don't want to be misenderstood of course that I will buy this game - but there a lot cuting of corners already.

TOAW had, since 1998 option to switch to "3D" graphics if you don't like 2D NATO mode and don't tell me that TOAW 3D tanks and planes etc. were ugly. To me - that was OK and it felt more immersive moving that tank icon and not some ugly 2D NATO icon. lol

And already we don't have Murmansk, big German guns like Karl, Thor bridges, NAVY and what's next?

Regarding navy, I know that they didn't have a big impact on campaign but it's nice chrome. For example Germans sunk I think 60 USSR submarines in Baltic in 1941 -1942. I think. I've read it somewhere, I think in Osprey book.

Then there was some nice Ju87 sinking of some cruisers and destroyers in Black Sea etc. hehe.




how do you know all of this stuff ?




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 41
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 7:45:50 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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maybe we will surprised you




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 42
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 9:10:56 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4216
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: online
Insulting to the public? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what it takes to develop and produce a game? You know that eventually the developers have to release a product and prioritize what is the important tasks to get completed and what is just extra nice to have things. Having only NATO icons IMO is hardly a yardstick to measure the enjoyability of a game. I personally would be insulted by your comment if I poured in 60+ hours into a product just to be called lazy because some insignificant feature wasn't included.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain


quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Being a girlie non nato symbol guy I am now crying inside thanks to the henious laughter above.



That has nothing to do with girlie stuff lol. I play TOAW in NON NATO mode...
I had interesting debate on this...

I think that developers are too lazy to do this. No offense but offering only NATO symbols is insulting to general public.

Explanation that we all need to adapt / like NATO symbols is biggest nonsense that I've ever heard.

Developers these days are just not up to the task anymore and that's all.






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Post #: 43
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 9:24:53 PM   
elmo3

 

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Never mind. I decided not to take the bait after all.


< Message edited by elmo3 -- 4/16/2010 9:29:22 PM >


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Post #: 44
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 9:33:20 PM   
Wild


Posts: 316
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain


quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Being a girlie non nato symbol guy I am now crying inside thanks to the henious laughter above.



That has nothing to do with girlie stuff lol. I play TOAW in NON NATO mode...
I had interesting debate on this...

I think that developers are too lazy to do this. No offense but offering only NATO symbols is insulting to general public.

Explanation that we all need to adapt / like NATO symbols is biggest nonsense that I've ever heard.

Developers these days are just not up to the task anymore and that's all.





His forum name seems quite fitting

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 45
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 9:37:05 PM   
lparkh


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline
Couple comments:
1) Grognard etc -- been playing wargames since 1976. And I still like non nato **for informational content** (namely dominant equipment type in this game). I would like to see BOTH the standard stats and the pictorial indication of the dominant equipment where the nato symbol is.
2) TOAW --3D. Unforuntately the 3D mode dropped other values that were shown in 2D version. So it was information impoverished. The ideal from info standpoint would have been 3D icon (to see what the dominant armor of that unit is (mattered in TOAW)) and the standard counter values. Interestingly I wrote the designer asking if he would add the stats and he said he had only done the icons under duress and so wasn't going to :-)
3) Nato symbols and the public -- icons vs nato sounds trivial. Agreed. But, ease of access matters and the moment someone stares at a screen and doesn't 'get it' then you are losing customers. Most people are not going to 'get' nato symbols. That being said the general public is not going to go for this game anyway :-) (no slight intended).
Icons vs Nato seem very idealogical/emotional. To me the issue is what conveys the most information to the player at a glance.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 46
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 10:07:01 PM   
Helpless


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All arts are easy moddable. Including counter symbols.

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Post #: 47
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 10:49:57 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10162
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

Btw, I don't want to be misenderstood of course that I will buy this game - but there a lot cuting of corners already.

TOAW had, since 1998 option to switch to "3D" graphics if you don't like 2D NATO mode and don't tell me that TOAW 3D tanks and planes etc. were ugly. To me - that was OK and it felt more immersive moving that tank icon and not some ugly 2D NATO icon. lol

And already we don't have Murmansk, big German guns like Karl, Thor bridges, NAVY and what's next?

Regarding navy, I know that they didn't have a big impact on campaign but it's nice chrome. For example Germans sunk I think 60 USSR submarines in Baltic in 1941 -1942. I think. I've read it somewhere, I think in Osprey book.

Then there was some nice Ju87 sinking of some cruisers and destroyers in Black Sea etc. hehe.





???????????????????? alot of cutting corners????????????? are you kidding? This is the most detailed operational game Ive seen on the PC. Have you checked out the detailed reporting thread? Thats the strangest comment I've ever read on this forum.

Quick question for Mokey Brains...have you ever played and operational game? If so I'd love to know the one that you've played that has more to it then this title....I will buy it straight away....Seems to me you've prob played Close Combat or something and have no idea about games at this level.

Ok I take that back you've played TOAW...good game but jeez it hasn't got detail like this baby. TOAW is the only other game with detail...its an exception not the norm..

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/16/2010 10:59:22 PM >


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Post #: 48
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 10:53:14 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

All arts are easy moddable. Including counter symbols.


stuff like this should be easy to mod into the game, once it is released, plus each modder, would be able to try and get it the way they want, instead of living with what we gave them



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Post #: 49
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 11:03:42 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline
Someone pass me a tissue, my eyes are running bad. It's bad enought I spend all my extra time on this game, then he doesnt like the counters...OMG...Don't you have somewhere you can go?

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AWD Beta tester
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Post #: 50
RE: New Screenshot - 4/16/2010 11:05:56 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 4147
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
The old NATO versus symbols is one of the oldest arguments around.

You can have both in this game.



And there you go.


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Post #: 51
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 12:20:13 AM   
Monkeys Brain


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Jesus, sorry guys LOL I guess i've hit a hornest nest here hehe

Yes I have places to go, just have been to my friend's party and we had wonderful evening there. With tons of laughs!

Sorry I will not make debate like this. At least now as it starting to get immature. Maybe I was rude but I have said what I think. Debate is pointless with fanboys. I will get this game because I like the settings of history coverage in this game. Because I study privately East Front.

My nickname is tonque in cheek to myself because I am smarter of all of you put together.

Adio :)

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 52
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 1:51:30 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1973
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Seriously?

Wanker.

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Post #: 53
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 3:17:00 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2558
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Seriously?

Wanker.



Leave him be! The lad has promise I believe. Just as soon as he grows up

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Post #: 54
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 4:37:09 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
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Hum, smarter than Gary, Joel, Erik, Pavel, Jim, Andy and the many others...You must be a kid. Be carefull, I've seen Erik zap people off this site, one day there posting, next day there gone...

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AWD Beta tester
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Post #: 55
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 8:46:45 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

maybe we will surprised you





There is a typo on this ss. The 24 cm railway gun was named Theodor, not Theodore.

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Post #: 56
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 5:51:00 PM   
wodin


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I'm sure all of us who buy this game study the East Front at home....some far more than others but I bet we all have a grasp on the subject.

I would never preach to any of the lads on here especially the game designers and testers...they know there stuff...if they didn't they wouldn't even know where to start on making this game.

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Post #: 57
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 5:53:59 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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Lutzow
odd, in the game, the unit name is Theodor, so maybe a mistype someplace



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Post #: 58
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 6:07:48 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Hum, smarter than Gary, Joel, Erik, Pavel, Jim, Andy and the many others...You must be a kid. Be carefull, I've seen Erik zap people off this site, one day there posting, next day there gone...


Hmmm, taking my words against me? Ussual tactics.

BTW, let's talk about the game and you started with insults - not me.

I just said that developers were lazy. Oh sorry for saying that!

If Norm Koger and TalonSoft managed to get two sets of graphics for TOAW in 1998. why is it so hard to do in 2010.?
I've seen such things like modders will do the rest in some Paradox game. That is no excuse.

BTW regarding calling additional sets of graphics TRIVIAL and NOT IMPORTANT it is in fact childish and very stupid fanboyism. In fact blind fanboyism is very bad for any game development. I have offered constructive criticism. I don't want to fight against windmills and blinded fanboys. So all of you get a grip and behave. But if kill messenger is your game...

First fanboys often look through their eyes only and are not very objective. And it is easy to be fanboy! But let's stop namecalling and be constructive for once.

Can you ACCEPT it that not all people find NATO icons best thing since sliced bread?

So if it is TRIVIAL for you, it doesn't need to be TRIVIAL for some other guy!

I am not saying that game is broken if it offers only NATO icons but it would add greatly to the value if another set is in game.

So attacking me per se is not doing constructive talk about game any good.

Like you I would want that this game be great and just as I said I will buy it regardless anything. And yes I have played many operational games since c64. :P

So take it easy and think a little before posting rudeness.





























(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 59
RE: New Screenshot - 4/17/2010 9:03:40 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10162
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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I'm not interested on your comment with regards to the counters ( I'd be happy if there was a choice but my god if there isn't I really couldn't call the developers lazy)...its the ridiculous comment that the design of this game is the work of lazy developers....just very odd. This game from what I've seen so far has far more detail and has far more depth than nearly all other games at this level. After checking out some of your other posts I believe you have no idea about operational level wargames. If you think this game cuts corners please god tell me the other games your comparing this one to. I want them.

You also have made rash judgements about the game design which have been disproved.

I don't agree with name calling...but hey you started it.

P.S just like to say I'm no fanboy...I've never even bought a Gary Grigsby game before nor played War in Russia...I.ve played alot of other wargames and followed many through the forums during development and I can hand on heart say that calling this bunch lazy is insulting and a pure untruth.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/17/2010 9:05:35 PM >


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Post #: 60
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