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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/6/2010 7:35:22 AM   
JudgeDredd


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It's like ANY monopoly...the company with the monopoly thinks they can do what they want.

Don't you worry. They've made enough sales from the people who don't care about the DRM and the people who believed this wouldn't be the pos it's apparently turned out to be. Dumping on your customers sure pays off when there's no competition around!

That said, they could drop the series like old boots. In fact, I'm surprised it's taking companies so long to come round to idea of "if you don't like the way we're going, tough" and dropping PC altogether.

More and more companies are thinking listening to your customer base is a bad idea!!! Crazy, I know...Infinity Ward have done it with Modern Warfare 2, Ubi are doing it with their flagship games...others will follow.

It's the future gents, so you better get comfortable in your little wargaming seats, 'cause it'll be a loooooooooooooooong storm to weather out and somne great games will come and go. Some of us will break because it's the game we were looking for, others will be more resilient.

It's wait and see time.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/6/2010 11:04:54 AM   
hellfirejet


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Well I was stupid enough to buy this game,I was so busy modding War Plan Orange & War In The Pacific Admirals Edition,that I did not even know about the DRM problem,only found out when game arrived,ah well we live and learn don't we,well the problem has now been solved,I have written off the cost of the game snapped the dvd in bits and bucketed the ******** lot,I will never buy from UBI SOFT again,thats one life time customer down!

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 3/6/2010 11:07:32 AM >


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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/6/2010 10:23:08 PM   
NefariousKoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

That said, they could drop the series like old boots. In fact, I'm surprised it's taking companies so long to come round to idea of "if you don't like the way we're going, tough" and dropping PC altogether.



I've been hearing this "DOOOM!" theory about PC gaming for a good decade. As with many other end-of-the-world predictions, it's been bunk.


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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/6/2010 11:38:32 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I'm not saying it's doom for the PC - I'm saying it's looking like it's their way or the highway. More and more are turning to downloadable content. More and more are turning to online activation, required internet connection, limited installs, pay monthly mmorpgs blah, blah, blah. If they release games like this, and we don't buy them, then it's fair to say if they're not making the money, they'll drop it.

Sometimes I wonder why they bother. I mean, there are such headaches for programming for the PC with all the different hardware and software configurations, they just get slapped in the face when things don't work...rightly or wrongly. Conversely, they can throw together games for a PS3 or XBox with none of the hassles of different OS versions, different hardware configurations, annoying software incompatabilities! I mean - seriously - why bother?

Ok - I don't think the PC will be dropped altogether - however, I think pickings will become slim over the next decade.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 12:08:29 AM   
TonyAAA


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If Ubisoft wanted to diminish piracy of a subsim, all they would need to do is include a printed manual of a few hundred pages with the game. 

You know, like all sims used to do.

IMO, making a retail copy better in a way that the pirated versions can't give you, is the best way to fight piracy. (Intrusive DRM does the EXACT opposite.)

Heck, I'd pay $20 over retail to get that "feature" in almost any simulation.




< Message edited by Tony_A -- 3/7/2010 12:09:46 AM >

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 12:39:12 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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This is why I still board game/along with pc wargaming. They can't DRM my board wargames.
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

All you gamers who like the Silent Hunter series of games,I would suggest you ignore this new installment,Silent Hunter 5 Battle of the Atlantic will sink like a stone it sucks! The worst part is if you don't have an internet connection then you can't play the game.



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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 12:46:45 AM   
Hertston


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Having spent some time reviewing both official and subsim.com forums, it seems the DRM is the least of SH5's problems; the game seems to be a complete pile of cr*p on release. Granted, both 3 and 4 were hugely improved by modders and the particular problems with 4 particularly largely resolved but with the stink about the DRM are enough people going to buy this to make significant modding worth the effort?

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 7:40:44 AM   
JudgeDredd


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I read a post by a dev (it was a reposted post - quoted over at SimHQ but apparently posted elsewhere by a developer) and the worrying thing was the way it mentioned modders - as if that's what was being relied on!

Silent Hunter III is an awesome game, made all the better by patches, modders and Grey Wolf(?) addon...but I remember when it was released...the torpedo speeds were not correct (or something like that) making it almost impossible to hit anything! There were loads of other little things, but that one stuck in my head!

Silent Hunter IV is also a great game, now....I wonder how long developers are able to rely on modders!? Didn't I read somewhere that the compass is missing from one of the map pages? I've been reading alot about it too and came to the same conclusion as Hertston - it in no way resembles a purchasable game at the moment.

I'm confused as other people though...how the hell have they managed to screw it up so bad? A tweak to the graphics, same workings as previous titles (I mean...once you've worked out the algorithm for firing a torpedo, it's right isn't it?)...so many things should've stayed the same...so all I would expect is bugs in the new stuff, but it appears the bugs are not confined to the new stuff?

Pity. As someone pointed out, they have a flagship sim here and seem to be screwing it up at every release!

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 8:13:41 AM   
Obsolete


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You are correct on the compass issue.  As I understand it, Ubi was already planning to dump the sim aspect, and was catering towards the ARCADE style of fans.  I assume this is where their studies may have shown where the money was to be made.  Of course, with a Flagship title, they were sure to still get the loyal fans to tag on (who wanted a great sim).  So that came out as a win/win for them.

However, the game currently fails even as an aracade.  So we have a flop/flop, or a double flop to put it exactly.

Now, throw in their latest KGB/Guestappo/CIA gimmick of a DRM, and the public is stuck with a FLOP-FLOP-FLOP, or a tirple flop to be blunt.

If this is indeed the end of this genre, then so be it.  At least it went out with a bang (depending how you look at things).  Maybe other developers will see a good lesson learned in this.  Just... maybe.






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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/7/2010 9:17:10 AM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Having spent some time reviewing both official and subsim.com forums, it seems the DRM is the least of SH5's problems; the game seems to be a complete pile of cr*p on release.


Exactly my point. Unfortunately subsim.com removed public access from SH5 board for unregistered lurkers.

Anyway, given that this crap is modable again, there is light at the end of the tunnel. I expect to see SH5 in the bargain bin pretty soon and Ubisoft removing DRM with a later patch, as they did with Starforce for SH3. So like two years from now, when some dedicated modder created a decent UI and hopefully a GWX 5, we can rejoice in a nice subsim with awesome graphics.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 5:07:20 AM   
Peter Fisla


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Priceless, can't be more clear than this...

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/07/ubisoft-drm-authentification-server-is-down-assassins-creed-2/



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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 6:29:49 AM   
NefariousKoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd



Sometimes I wonder why they bother. I mean, there are such headaches for programming for the PC with all the different hardware and software configurations, they just get slapped in the face when things don't work...rightly or wrongly. Conversely, they can throw together games for a PS3 or XBox with none of the hassles of different OS versions, different hardware configurations, annoying software incompatabilities! I mean - seriously - why bother?



This is easy to answer.

Because all those console games are created on computers. Nice and convenient isn't it?


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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:16:52 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd



Sometimes I wonder why they bother. I mean, there are such headaches for programming for the PC with all the different hardware and software configurations, they just get slapped in the face when things don't work...rightly or wrongly. Conversely, they can throw together games for a PS3 or XBox with none of the hassles of different OS versions, different hardware configurations, annoying software incompatabilities! I mean - seriously - why bother?



This is easy to answer.

Because all those console games are created on computers. Nice and convenient isn't it?


True...but more and more are being created for console initially and ported to the computer...if you play FPS or racing games, you can see it in the interface - it's written all over alot of new games!

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:18:43 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Priceless, can't be more clear than this...

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/07/ubisoft-drm-authentification-server-is-down-assassins-creed-2/




lol at that! I mean...shoot yourself in the foot! If you're going to have DRM that calls a server, it might be wise to make sure it's up and running on release to combat the doubters! EPIC FAIL me thinks!!

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:54:26 AM   
RyanCrierie


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From Subsim:

quote:

Earlier tonight i played some SH5. Found a huge 32 ship taskforce and attacked it. Went rather terrible.. Managed to cripple 2 ships. They started burning alot, so im confused they werent destroyed in the first place. (If those kind of fires were present on any real life ship, the sailors would get the hell off it. and fast). Anyway, i apparently destroyed the engine on one of those ships. So i observed it and happily waited for the rest of the convoy to leave their friends behind for shark food. Once it seemed safe i got up, sunk the ship with the deck gun, since i was fresh outta eels. After that i gave myself a pat on the back and set up a nice route to head home for some sauerkraut.

Sometime during this journey i was ordered by my "captain" to join her in the sofa for some TV. So i saved the game and were fed some junk TV instead.

Now later i decided to pop in to just sail home and start my second patrol. I Load the save, and was surprised to see it rather far down the list, and sure enough, the save was old. Altho the timestamp said othewise. I got mad, and reloaded another auto save, which, luckily enough was at a point where i was waiting for the convoy to move away from the crippled ship. Hooray!.. Altho, when i peered thru the periscope that ship was not burning anymore. and was happily trying to catch up with their friends..

And all i could do was to laugh. and get angry.

My theory is as follows:
To reduce the file size of the save games, because they are transferred to the stupid UBI servers. Minimal info is saved.

The reason i had to load that save is also because somewhere my real save game disappeared, which is UBI's servers fault.

If i hadn't bought the game digitally, i would have thrown this piece of crap out the window.. I had some hope for this game, but all the bugs and other gameplay issues. And recently the DRM servers not working and even savegames vanishing from the face of the earth have finally gotten me fed up...

Needed to vent some anger and frustration, and i shall stop now before i end up typing stupid things about the devs and such..


..

quote:

You can turn online saves OFF.

but i doubt this would make any differance since :-

This is an old save bug.... present from SH3... so i would say the rules for saving would be the same advice from SH3....

DO NOT SAVE
when submerged.
when within 50km of a ship.
when within 50km of a harbour.
When within 50km of a sunk ship.

But Ubi have made the bug issue worse with this online saves.

*Edited to add more info.*


quote:

Unfortunatly, you cant blame DRM on this one. Here's a tidbit that i just assume is common knowledge because it's the same behavior in SH3, and SH4.

The game keeps track if basic info. Speed, heading, position, ship type, stuff its equped with, etc. It does NOT keep track of things like damage incurred, shells expended, things of that nature.

What this means, is that in SH3, Sh4, and Sh5, when you damage a ship, you MUST follow through. The damage incurred, shells it expended, etc, is only kept track of while the ship is within 30KM of your own. ( At least i think its 30KM). After a ship gets away from you, and has exceeded 30KM distance, it is no longer rendered. So all temporary information is reset. After that, the game ony keeps track of basic information again, and does not render the ship until it is within 30KM. It does this to save system resources. (consider how many convoys and single ships the game is simultaniously tracking).

So as an example, you can create a single mission where a convoy of Allied battle ships are traveling in a 60KM circular route, but passing some stationary axis battleships. As the allied task force goes by, it will incurr damage, and use its shells firing its guns. Sit there and wait for it to come back, and it will be fully restored to prestine condition because it exceeded 30KM distance. The game stopped rendering it, and when it started to render it again as it came closer, it called upon the data files for the specifications of what to render.

This is what your encountering when you reload a saved game where you know you damaged a ship. The damage is not tracked. Its temporary data not written to file. So the moral of he story is, if you damage a ship and you really want to sink it, DO so before it gets too far away from you, or before you decided to save the game and quit.


I find it pretty hilarious that in Fallout 3; somehow Bethesda can literally keep track of every body, clip, bullet etc around 26 km2 of the wasteland (that's a lot of stuff); but after TWO TRIES, the guys at Ubisoft Romania still cannot fix the savegame bugs that have plagued the SH franchise since SH3.

So basically, moral of story: stay away from anything produced by Eastern European or Russian Dev studios -- while they can produce a very nice looking game on the cheap; it seems like quality control in those areas is weak to non-existent.

I can understand these problems with SH3; because it was Ubi Romania's first subsim, and the game was nearly cancelled several times during development; plus a major game element (dynamic campaign) was slotted in at the last minute. But they've since had two follow on A+ titles to work on it (SH4 and SH5), and the same problems keep showing up. :lol:

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 8:01:31 AM   
Obsolete


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For some reason, this disaster is reminding me of when the first fully computerized AirBus decided to do its first automated landing in front of a large spectator crowed in France.

Similar results.

I would also have to say, for once I am finding myself not-arguing with some of the quotes from those hot-headed and irate 13-year olds:

quote:

Serves you retards right for buying online single player.


But to be honest, 99% of those purchasers complaining most likely had their parents purchase the title.  I guess the DRM doesn't seem so bad at first as long as someone else pays the bill.




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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 9:31:17 AM   
Zakhal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie
So basically, moral of story: stay away from anything produced by Eastern European or Russian Dev studios -- while they can produce a very nice looking game on the cheap; it seems like quality control in those areas is weak to non-existent.


Are you saying that west doesnt release unfinished games lol? Besides east has released lots of good working games too i.e fantasy wars, elven legacy, kings bounty, armored princess, witcher, space rangers 2, majesty 2, Mafia, etc just to name few.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 9:36:25 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Mafia was awesome. Also there is the IL2 series?? And DCS Black Shark??

I have to agree with Zakhal Ryan - your statement is a little too sweeping and pretty misleading.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 10:39:42 AM   
RyanCrierie


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quote:

Also there is the IL2 series??


IL-2 was the exception to the rule.

For every IL-2, there's a ton of other awesomely looking games that look great in previews, but when you play them, turn out to be duds, either technically (bug ridden), or just severely lacking in how it works (look at the first Theater of War).

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 10:53:14 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Well, I disagree wholeheartedly and think you are over exaggerating for effect (a ton??).

Just to take the example you highlighted, Theatre of War from what I recall was not "bug ridden"...at least no more so than many, many other games (yep...including outside Eastern Europe and Russia)

I strongly doubt the issue is to do location, only slightly to do with developers and more to do with publishers! It sounds like I'm standing up for Silent Hunter V - which I'm not...from what I've read, it's in a bad way...I'm just completely against your statement that it's to do with the location of the developers! Just plain wrong.

Also isn't the new Kharkov game that everyone is raving about made in the area under question??



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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 3:24:57 PM   
Jevhaddah


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As I understand it Ubi-Soft is a French company and the Devs are in Rumania. With the Ubi bean counters calling the shots it's no great surprise that their games are released before they are completed.

Got to keep the quarterly figures up to date and show at least some cash flow.

As for the DRM it's usually the publishers that insist on it and what form it will take not the devs.

I just thank my lucky stars that I have shelves full of older unplayed games, most still in their shrinkwrap

Cheers

Jev

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 5:17:04 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

So basically, moral of story: stay away from anything produced by Eastern European or Russian Dev studios -- while they can produce a very nice looking game on the cheap; it seems like quality control in those areas is weak to non-existent.



Yes. And no. The trouble is that some of the games themselves are so darned good, and above all original compared with their 'western' counterparts. I'm a big fan of games that do something different such as the STALKER series in a limited way and the Ice-Pick Studios games which do so rather more drastically. Pathologic and The Void are two of the best and most original games I've ever played (despite the appalling translations in the former), but you would never see anything like those from a US or UK studio. Sometimes 'warts and all' is worth it.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:22:27 PM   
Obsolete


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Hmm.  I just went to check the newest batch of complaints over at Ubi.  Looks like all their forums are going through their own epic fail right now.  The entire domain just gives:

Network Timeout

What timing....


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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:44:51 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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So...all things considered, DRM, saves, gameplay, which Silent Hunter is/was the best of the series ?


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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:51:24 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Silent Hunter 3 is awesome for German WWII submarine warfare - patched there is no DRM and there are great addons.
Silent Hunter IV is awesome for Pacific WWII submarine warfare - patched has no drm and mods are also good.
Silent Hunter V at present is a BIG no no

So 3 or 4 will do you proud and they're both pretty cheap just now.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 7:52:17 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

So...all things considered, DRM, saves, gameplay, which Silent Hunter is/was the best of the series ?



Right now, probably 3. You'll need to download some hefty mods to get the best out of it. SH4 isn't quite as good, but it's not too far behind. Again, you'll need to mod it.

The best place to go is probably http://www.subsim.com/index.php

SH3 has two major mods, either Grey Wolves or NYGM. Both have transformed the game massively from it's original release.

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/8/2010 10:10:11 PM   
Jevhaddah


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Silent Hunter 3 with GWX3 mod is what I play most. I have not installed any mods for SH4 yet as I have just bought the Gold edition.

How they could not have given us SH3 with wolfpacks, milchecows and spiffyy new graphics is beyond me.

Cheers

Jev

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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/9/2010 1:00:26 AM   
Obsolete


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I was never planning to play Assasin's Creed, and I certainly am not after this escapade.  But this video of A.C. meets DRM just cracks me up:

Ubisoft's New DRM






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RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/9/2010 2:19:11 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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RE: Silent Hunter 5

quote:

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie
So basically, moral of story: stay away from anything produced by Eastern European or Russian Dev studios -- while they can produce a very nice looking game on the cheap; it seems like quality control in those areas is weak to non-existent.


Well, that statement is either triggered by prejudice or lack of knowledge, or maybe both.

Eagle Dynamics (Moscow) produced excellent titles, like "DCS:Blackshark" and especially "Lock-on", and the Flaming Cliffs 2.0 upgrade, will rock, I guess.
IL-2 Sturmovik was also an excellent game.
Another example for really original (like Hertston pointed out) games and gameplay coming from Eastern European developers would be "Soldiers" (published by Codemasters, which had its downsides and some quirks, but it was still enjoyable) and especially "Men of War" (published by 1C, both from the dev BestWay), for sure, which took Soldiers' new RPG/micromanagement elements to RTS and managed to blend these with a somewhat realistic approach regarding the computing of ballistics in a destructable environment, where you could even take over the gunner's position.

The Czech developer Bohemia Interactive created a game ("Operation Flashpoint", 2001) that was well ahead of its time, providing 3D mission areas of up to 40 kilometers (an imaginary Island that's being invaded by the Russians), where you could freely travel across the island.
If it would have featured a dedicated server for online games (players had to host, limiting the number of players and limiting the number of hosts with decent connections, as you had to have a 1- or 2-Mbit connection [upload] for lag-free gaming), its Multiplayer could have prevailed.
Bohemia created a Military spin-off from the OFP-idea and environment, and its military version (VBS1 et sqq.) is quite successful.

Dice's Battlefield 1942 (2002) pretty much copied the vital OFP-elements + elements from Tribes (Tribes 1 - 1998, Tribes 2 - April 2001)(regarding use of vehicles in a MP environment and the ability to have different players take over the driver and say the gunner position), managed to provide a somewhat better netcode, and programmed a dedicated server. They basically exploited and picked up the innovations, to create an arcade WW2-version with a tiny mission area and less realistic approach regarding ballistics, but which appeared to be more polished than OFP ever was. Aircraft handling was terrible and it didn't improve until they had hired the creators of the Desert Combat mod, who then refined vehicle handling for Battlefield 2.

In turn, there are other games from Eastern European devs, just like SilentHunter, or let's say Battlestations Midway (EIDOS Hungary), where you can tell that the developer is either still learning how to program (and how to ship titles with a relatively low amount of bugs) or where they're being pushed for a premature release by the publisher.

The whole idea behind Midway, while rather being an arcade-style game, for example, was to blend rts elements (map/command screen) with first person elements, where you can switch to the pilot seat, or be captain/helmsman/gunner of a vessel (carrier, capital ships, etc. or submarine), or even the commander of an airfield (and its spuadrons). Basically it was a new and fresh "Battlefield meets RTS meets strategic arcade sim" thing, where the Multiplayer stuck out, absolutely. If it would have featured a better netcode and less bugs, it could have been a huge success. The sequel is more polished, but features new quirks. Still, the AI (player and CPU) is pretty decent.

Theater of War 2 is another example for a game with deficiencies, the scripted AI is piss poor, and the game lacks content (really short campaign, lack of multiplayer maps, bad mission generator, small arms too lethal at medium/long range), but - in theory - it's still an innovative and promising approach (if the devs manage to cater for the deficiencies).

So, saying that it's wise to stay away from Eastern European games is a pretty bold generalization.

EDIT:
It seems that UBIsoft, Codemasters and EIDOS, besides UBI's and Vivendi's trend to seemingly focus on development for consoles, started to employ Eastern European devs a couple of years ago. While some of these releases seem to be rushed, or packed with bugs, other games (developed in other countries) aren't better off.
UBI employs a division in Shanghai, for example, that creates PC versions (IIRC), eg. the PC version of Splinter Cell:Double Agent, and while the PC versions have less features (no co-op play, etc.) than their console counterparts, they feature heavy bugs in the savegame routines (saves disappear or are corrupt).

Programming of savegame routines (where you can save at any location/time in the game) takes quite some effort, and is usually dropped in case a dev is just porting a game from the console to the PC. In the case of Splinter Cell the PC version was developed simultanously, so it seems that the chinese programmers just got owned by the complexity of the job.

So ... this isn't a Eastern European thing exclusively, it deals with qualification and motivation of the staff, with the publisher's will to finance independent development for the several platforms and how much time they would grant a dev team.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 3/9/2010 3:23:34 PM >


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(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 59
RE: Silent Hunter 5 - 3/9/2010 4:07:00 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
You forgot CD Project and their 'Witcher' in your listing.

There are indeed some gems among Eastern European studios. Unfortunatly a lot of duds as well.

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 60
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