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Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 2:28:02 AM   
Reverberate

 

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The Mershing road exploit (for lack of a better word for now). Missing from WITP stock, or CHS (Brown) is the ability to cut the Malay peninsula in half and prevent an orderly retreat of the Commonwealth troops to Singapore. In AE (Brown) JFB's can land en masse at Mershing, then send a couple of units on the improved road due west (armor if you have it), and the Malay army is cut in half.

So, who got it the map right: Andrew Brown (CHS) or Andrew Brown (AE)?
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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 3:14:28 AM   
AcePylut


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There is only one counter that I can see to the Mersing Gambit. And that's to get lucky with Force Z intercepting the invasion fleet son Dec 7th.

If the Japs DO land at Mersing, they CAN cut the peninsula before anyone can retreat.

I know. THis is what happened to me in my aar "Spilling Blood". On Dec 7th, I set all units possible to "strat mode", to rail to Singapore. The peninsula was cut before they moved. My forces are split in half, with 1k av in between Singapore and the troops up north.

There is absolutely zero reason for anyone to "not" do the Mersing Gambit. There is no counter for it, but pure luck.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 3:43:44 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

The Mershing road exploit (for lack of a better word for now). Missing from WITP stock, or CHS (Brown) is the ability to cut the Malay peninsula in half and prevent an orderly retreat of the Commonwealth troops to Singapore. In AE (Brown) JFB's can land en masse at Mershing, then send a couple of units on the improved road due west (armor if you have it), and the Malay army is cut in half.

So, who got it the map right: Andrew Brown (CHS) or Andrew Brown (AE)?



Actually, the "Mersing Gambit" should ONLY be available in a non-historical, no surprise, version of the game. To land at Mersing on the opening turn, the Japs would have had to pushed their invasion convoy far enough South the day before that no confusion remained as to their intensions. Which means the Allies could react to the threat.

Landing at Mersing later would certainly be an option..., but on day one it's simply a cheesy rules exploit...

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:00:43 AM   
John 3rd


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It is highly gamey to land at Mersing on Turn One.  The Japanese player must, with any realism at all, start at least 8-10 hexes away.  British Recon would have picked them up as they did the other TF moving into the area and responded.


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:13:07 AM   
Reverberate

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
It is highly gamey to land at Mersing on Turn One.  The Japanese player must, with any realism at all, start at least 8-10 hexes away.  British Recon would have picked them up as they did the other TF moving into the area and responded.

Forget turn one. Won't it work almost as well if it is executed a few days later? At least it did on me. As it was my first [AE] campaign game.

My question was: is the map accurate? This "gambit" was not available in any WITP mods.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:38:36 AM   
John 3rd


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OK.  I just re-read the posting.  Answered the wrong question. 

Map Designers?  Does anyone know?


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 9:06:14 AM   
Reg


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Don't forget the different hex sizes in the two games allows different interpretations of the geography.....



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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 9:44:40 AM   
Hortlund


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Im one of the culprits, as I am Acepyluts opponent in the game he is referring too. All warp-TFs to Mersing on turn 0 will mean that Singapore falls in mid-December. We have been talking about the Mersing gambit, and there really is no way to stop the Japs if they manage to land on turn 1.

The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 10:17:06 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

OK.  I just re-read the posting.  Answered the wrong question. 

Map Designers?  Does anyone know?



According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.

Andrew

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 10:20:19 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.



FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 10:58:59 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.



FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.



Since Force Z didn't even sail from Singapore until the early evening of the 8th (Malaya time), if the "historical start" must have it out to sea a day early, why not sail it to Mersing? That's closer to where it really was than what we have now..., and prevents a ludicrous exploit as well. What do you think Andrew?

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 11:08:37 AM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.



FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.



Since Force Z didn't even sail from Singapore until the early evening of the 8th (Malaya time), if the "historical start" must have it out to sea a day early, why not sail it to Mersing? That's closer to where it really was than what we have now..., and prevents a ludicrous exploit as well. What do you think Andrew?




Or keep it simple - if you are going to play a non-historical start then the Allies get freedom of movement - "Problem" solved.

Herr Hortlund who used the Turn 0 exploit said as much in his post.


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 12:11:50 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Or keep it simple - if you are going to play a non-historical start then the Allies get freedom of movement - "Problem" solved.




Minor problem, "Spider". Japanese players generally want to play with "Historical" and "Suprise" ON because of the benefits they get. So in this case making "historical" less a-historical by sending Force Z to Mersing would be simple..., AND solve the "exploit problem".

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 12:24:41 PM   
Mark Weston

 

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Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 12:30:50 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?



Are you sure, Mark? I'm no expert on playing the Japanese, but I thought it was possible to change the destination of the * TF's (the ones that get the extra movement) even in the historical start. Am I wrong?

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 12:44:56 PM   
Mark Weston

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Are you sure, Mark? I'm no expert on playing the Japanese, but I thought it was possible to change the destination of the * TF's (the ones that get the extra movement) even in the historical start. Am I wrong?


Well yeah, you are

Start a PBeM game with historical first turn on, all you get to do is set a password and save the turnfile to send to your opponent. You don't actually get to see the map. As soon as the allied player sends it back you're straight into Dec 7th turn resolution.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 2:09:49 PM   
AcePylut


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I have no problems with the move.  That's part of the game imho.

I did have standard freedom of movement with Force Z, did the usual cancel-the-POW/Repulse-"Please Sink Me at Khota Bharu" button by changing their move orders to pull a few hexes south of Singapore.  They formed up with a small CL/DD force and attacked on the 10th.  It was too late to prevent anything by then, and as such Force Z HAS to attack on the 7th. 

So I guess, in the future, Force Z will always be given "move to Mersing" orders with "retirement" on and a home port of Batavia.  And I will pray that I get good die rolls, because even if Force Z intercepts... in the 20 times I've run this against the AI, Force Z usually does not disrupt the invasion.

The Mersing Gambit works best on the first turn, because you want to cut the peninsula in half before the troops in Northern Malaya rail down to Singapore.  If you wait a few turns to invade Mersing, then there is time to rail your troops up north and make Fortress Singapore.

I"ve run this strategy about 10-20 times against AI, both as US and Japan...

< Message edited by AcePylut -- 3/1/2010 2:10:49 PM >


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 2:49:45 PM   
kaleun

 

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Great thread!
Note to self: If playing non historical allow for force Z dest change.


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 2:58:39 PM   
John 3rd


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It does make sense to me.  Course the Japanese shouldn't be ALLOWED to Warp in their Landing troops at Mersing on Turn One but that is my .02.


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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:10:00 PM   
AcePylut


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I don't think we can assume that the Brits would have spotted a Mersing Invasion "in real life" - any more than we can assume the Japs could make 6 fleet carriers disappear for 2 weeks and end up 100 miles north of Hawaii. 

The Mersing Gambit will cost the Japanese a few ships.  Maybe 10 at most unless the Jap Cap gets grounded for a day, and the Allies torpedo bombers don't - not likely if Mersing is Capped from a couple of bases.  Either that, or I got the worst possible die rolls, every single time.... but to clear out Singapore in December - that's well worth the losses. 

As it stands right now, I have about 400AV in Singapore (put all combat troops on rest to restore disablements - clicked on accept replacements for the time being to try and get more troops into the LCU's and also burn some supplies so the Japs don't get them), facing 1k AV at Jhora Bharu (sp -atm I can't remember the spelling).  Forts are being built, but they will not get to a very high level before I'm under attack.  The only other thing I can do is to fire Percival and replace him with another leader - to try and delay the inevitable for a bit of time.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:21:41 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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The Kota Bharu force was spotted. Spotting one at Mersing is a relatively safe assumption.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 4:26:06 PM   
Dobey455

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?


I don't know about force Z but most Japanese players prefer something along the lines of "The Japanese player can do anything they want and the Allied player has to follow history exactly and not change anything"

OK I'm exagerating a little, but a "Non-historical" start usually means a non-historical start for Japanese players and a historical start for Allied players.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 5:10:32 PM   
WITPPL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey



I don't know about force Z but most Japanese players prefer something along the lines of "The Japanese player can do anything they want and the Allied player has to follow history exactly and not change anything"



Hey, WHAT is WRONG with that?



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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 5:31:23 PM   
AcePylut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

The Kota Bharu force was spotted. Spotting one at Mersing is a relatively safe assumption.


Then lets assume that a Mersing invasion was spotted... now we have to assume that the British response towards the Mersing Invasion would be different than the one against Kota Bharu. I don't think it would have been.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 11:19:30 PM   
Reverberate

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston
Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?

Monitoring the opponents wanted section about half the JFB's require that Force Z suffer its historical fate. Oh, and they all want Scenario 2, and non-historic start (for Japan). And yes they get takers. Me, for one.

Historic first day solves a lot of these thorny issues. On those rare occasions when I play Japan, I am too overwhelmed/lazy to plot my own Dec. 7th. Figure I'll wait until the 8th to put my mark on history.....

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 11:23:54 PM   
Reverberate

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.

That would mean you messed up on the CHS map.

So it's official then, Brown over Brown in a TKO.


P.S. if you get a mulligan on the AE map, get rid of that road!!

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/1/2010 11:34:07 PM   
budman999


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From what I remember, the Brits were aware of the unusual movement of Japanese shipping in the area and had stepped up their recon flights.

Of course, it is easy to say the Japanese could do this; but with the presence of British naval and air power in the area, would the Japanese have made this landing in real life?
I'm sure the Brits would have made a vigorous naval and air response to any attempted landing at Mersing.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/2/2010 12:22:44 AM   
Cyber Me

 

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The Japanese chosing to land in neutral Thailand complicated the British response to their initial reactions in the Malayan Campaign. Brooke-Popham's indecisions over Operation Matador had given the Japs time to unload troops and artillery unopposed. Operation Matador called for a opposing the Jap landings on the beaches, and to use airpower to smash the Jap transports at sea= before they had landed. A Japanese landing at Mersing wouldn't have had the advantage of throwing the initial British plans into ruin before it began as they would have landed where the British wanted them to.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/2/2010 12:23:45 AM   
Mark Weston

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Budman

From what I remember, the Brits were aware of the unusual movement of Japanese shipping in the area and had stepped up their recon flights.

Of course, it is easy to say the Japanese could do this; but with the presence of British naval and air power in the area, would the Japanese have made this landing in real life?
I'm sure the Brits would have made a vigorous naval and air response to any attempted landing at Mersing.


Game players have a much higher risk-tolerance than historical military planners...

Certainly the threats as modelled by the game are enough to put this Japanese player off from a turn 1 Mersing. Force Z plus a completely un-suppressed RAF, which you're trying to fight off from bases way off in Indochina. Most of the troops will likely get ashore, but it's going to be expensive and there's always the chance of it going completely pear-shaped.

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RE: Brown v Brown - 3/2/2010 12:23:56 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reverberate


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.

That would mean you messed up on the CHS map.

So it's official then, Brown over Brown in a TKO.


I'll come out swinging against myself - There is also a "main" road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast (Johore Bahru because its a bigger scale) on my old WitP map, so it looks OK as well.

Andrew

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