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Crazy big land battle - take a look.

 
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Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/24/2010 6:51:18 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
Ok, this is definitely my biggest land battle to date.
I've been sieging Chungking (packing around 80 chinese units) with 18 Divs, 3 tank reg. and a ridiculous amount of artillery units for about 3 months.
(I'm playing against the AI and am going for Chungking mostly as a curious experiment).
Since the patch killed the artillery death star, and it's goodbye to 1500-2000 casualties per bombardment, I figured I might as well assault and see what happened.

Well, I shock attacked and this happened.
I took 65.000 casualties. (LOL )
And didn't put a dent in those level 6 fortifications.
Probably a reasonable result to an unreasonable move (I'm not supposed to be sieging Chungking at all, I know...).

We're about even in number of men (I had slaughtered his 80 units through bombardments for several months) and I have a moderate lead in unadjusted AV.
I have plenty of supply, he has very little (I've checked...). But he has a level 6(!) fortification.
All my units are 100% prepped for Chungking.

What I'm mostly curious about is the drop I see from my unadjusted AV to adjusted AV.
Is that his fortifications coming into play?
I thought they only boosted the defender, not lowered the attacker AV...
I have no combat modifiers against me, so I don't see any other things that could have caused that drop...

Anyway, here's the carnage...:


Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 247631 troops, 2846 guns, 1645 vehicles, Assault Value = 8652

Defending force 234251 troops, 1060 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 7533

Japanese adjusted assault: 1194

Allied adjusted defense: 5725

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
65383 casualties reported
Squads: 205 destroyed, 4829 disabled
Non Combat: 296 destroyed, 3841 disabled
Engineers: 22 destroyed, 505 disabled
Vehicles lost 301 (152 destroyed, 149 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
7259 casualties reported
Squads: 28 destroyed, 328 disabled
Non Combat: 46 destroyed, 1102 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 44 disabled


Assaulting units:
22nd Division
6th Division
24th Division
23rd Tank Regiment
13th Division
36th Division
9th Tank Regiment
8th Division
3rd Division
51st Infantry Brigade
17th Division
116th Division
60th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
40th Division
15th Division
12th Division
26th Division
39th Division
1st Division
32nd Division
14th Division
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
13th Army
10th Mortar Battalion
4th Mortar Battalion
13th Mortar Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
10th Mortar Battalion
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
6th RF Gun Battalion
4th RF Gun Battalion
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Army
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
4th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
7th New Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
20th Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
13th Construction Regiment
100th Chinese Corps
78th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
21st Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
65th Chinese Corps
66th Chinese Corps
24th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
98th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
70th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
5th New Chinese Corps
3rd New Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps
48th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
2nd Reserve Division
91st Chinese Corps
10th Construction Regiment
15th Group Army
41st AA Regiment
3rd Construction Regiment
4th Group Army
19th Group Army
China Command
5th War Area
1st Artillery Regiment
29th Group Army
9th War Area
1st Chinese Base Force
CAF HQ
12th Group Army
39th Group Army
32nd Group Army
14th Construction Regiment
10th Chinese Base Force
1st War Area
14th Chinese Base Force
38th Group Army
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
3rd Chinese Base Force
24th Group Army
Central Reserve
17th Group Army
22nd Artillery Regiment
14th Group Army
10th Group Army
49th AA Regiment

_____________________________

regards,

Briny
Post #: 1
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/24/2010 9:14:58 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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Joined: 2/17/2010
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This worries me for the long view. How are the Allies supposed to take Iwo Jima? Historically, it took three Marine Divisions about a month..., against one Japanese division in what were certainly level six fortifications. But will that be possible with all forms of bombardment "nerfed" this much.

Bombardments needed "fixing"..., but I wonder now if they were "over-fixed"?

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 2
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/24/2010 9:20:45 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
I tend to agree Mike. I think they may have limited the effects of artillery bombardment too much. I have not been able to budge Bataan's fort level of 4 with 1700AV worth of troops and guns, either shock attacking or bombarding.

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 3
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/24/2010 11:37:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

This worries me for the long view. How are the Allies supposed to take Iwo Jima? Historically, it took three Marine Divisions about a month..., against one Japanese division in what were certainly level six fortifications. But will that be possible with all forms of bombardment "nerfed" this much.

Bombardments needed "fixing"..., but I wonder now if they were "over-fixed"?


OTOH, the game assumes all of Iwo Jima is flat enough to use armor everywhere, and you have "infinite" beachhead for unloading.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 4
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/25/2010 1:21:07 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

Seems pretty obvious you just don't have enough troops.


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"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 5
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/25/2010 11:18:27 AM   
aciddrinker


Posts: 135
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
what did u expect, you are atacking fortified urban base whit only 1:1 force ratio. Even an old drunk chinese can hide under the fence, and  blow tank whit Kung Fu trick.

quote:

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+)...


< Message edited by aciddrinker -- 2/25/2010 11:19:12 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 6
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/25/2010 4:24:39 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline
Same problem I experienced at Bandoeng - even without forts.
Struggled hard to bring in more supplies, better leaders and enough support - still assault value was divided by 2 or 3 every time I attacked. Only one out of 10 times the full av was included - in the final attack I shock attacked and the assault value was nearly quadrupled from 2100 to 8400

Think I need an AV calculator ...


_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to aciddrinker)
Post #: 7
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/25/2010 4:27:49 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline
Hm, a quarter of a million trained Jap troops should be equal to a million peasant soldiers...
Guess AE is doing a twist to make it difficult to capture all of China - to difficult to accurately recreate the battlefields of China with the rather limited land combat engine.

My advice is; reduce your ambitions in China!


_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 8
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/25/2010 5:19:43 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25298
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
briny_norman: Why did you elect a shock attack for your first assault? That cost you lot of casualties.

I should also expect much greater success after you reduce fortification levels through the use of engineer units in repeated attacks. It's slower, but it still works. The alternative-as you've indicated-is rather unpalatable for attacking forces.

Lastly, you have omitted any mention of your disruption or fatigue levels. These, along with terrain, leadership, supply, fortifications, experience levels, morale, etc., etc. will certainly affect your adjusted AV value.

_____________________________


(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 9
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 2/26/2010 2:56:27 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
I didn't really expect the assault to be a success, I'm posting mostly out of excitement over such a big land battle...!

All units had 0 disruption and 0 fatigue, except the arty units, of course, who had been busy bombarding.
I have two divisional headquarters present, both with very good leaders.
I've also moved China Command to Changsa so I might get the Super Leader Bonus.

Chickenboy, you are of course right.
I should try to use my engineers to lower the fortification levels.

Chungking is an immensely hard nut to crack, but it's fun to try.
Before the patch I was pretty confident that I would take the city eventually.
After the bombardment model got adjusted, I am less optimistic, but I still think I have a chance.
After all I did get well over 2 months of pre-patch bombardments in and they did a lot of damage.
His AV fell from over 9000 to 7500 in that period.
And he's very low on supplies.

So with heavy air bombardments and conservative attacks to let my engineers have a go on the fortifications, I think I still have a chance of taking Chungking.
But it's going to take a while longer and cost me a lot more troops and equipment than I had hoped, now that the Death Star is out of play...

Without the Death Star I see absolutely no possibility of taking Chungking for the Japanese player.
Which is as it should be, I guess.


_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 3/4/2010 9:01:16 PM   
christenberryd

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/9/2010
Status: offline
how bad off are disabled squads ... they come  back. 500 squads or 5,000 men KIA out of a group of 250k attacking a heavily fortified city area. Not too terrible?? 

(in reply to moose1999)
Post #: 11
RE: Crazy big land battle - take a look. - 3/4/2010 10:01:48 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Wow brutal.

Just a guess...

High aggression commanders full out shock attack against 1:6 fortifications with a 7pointanything% lead in AV?
Well I think the China land combat bug is mainly fixed...

Edit: this is why I always failed at math...forgot the %...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/4/2010 10:19:40 PM >


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Post #: 12
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