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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR

 
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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 3:02:34 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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With regards to the 20th Mot Div, are they in supply?  If the Soviets have ZOC"s it looks to me as if they are, in fact, cut off.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 3:07:10 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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Forgive me, Elmo3, for bombarding you with questions, for I am very much anticipating this game!  That aside, here's another:
You stated that the goal for AGC was Moscow, eschewing Hitler's mistake of an Uber-encirclement east of Kiev.  What are the victory
conditions?  Is there a 'drop-dead' condition for the Soviets (i.e., the loss of Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad)?


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 3:55:24 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

With regards to the 20th Mot Div, are they in supply?  If the Soviets have ZOC"s it looks to me as if they are, in fact, cut off.


The unit is not isolated because we last occupied the hexes adjacent to that unit and still have ZOC's between the 12th Pz and 20th Mot Div. It is down to 39% supplies and 36% fuel though so it's MP's are reduced as you can see. So it is not in any immediate danger but they are either going to need other units to widen that gap or they will pull back to a safer position.



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 3:56:47 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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Man, that is a gorgeous screenshot!

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 4:00:12 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

...What are the victory conditions? ...



We have not established victory conditions yet. Losses will be a part of it and taking cities will be another part. This is under discussion on our beta forums and I believe Joel started a thread here somewhere for others to provide input.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 4:05:11 PM   
Montbrun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus

...Do you have any Brandenberger or Fallschirmjäger units that could be used in LOG cut-off ops?

cheers..


No Brandenbergers. I "think" there is a Fallschirmjager in the OOB somewhere but I don't work on the OOB. The Soviets have some airborne units.


Early-war, "Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" attached to AGN comes to mind, and should be there somewhere...

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 4:55:33 PM   
elmo3

 

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AGN continues to push north and east and is only seeing spotty resistance.  Perhaps the Soviets are on R&R in Leningrad before the winter comes?  18th Army (purple) found no more Soviets west of Riga.  They were there last turn so maybe they were transported out by sea.  16th Army (pink) is lagging a bit but trying to keep up on the right flank of 4th Pz Grp.  And 4th Pz Grp is heading toward Tallinn and Pskov.  We will have completed the rail line to Riga by the next logistics phase so supply should not be an issue.




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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 4:57:02 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Early-war, "Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" attached to AGN comes to mind, and should be there somewhere...



Sorry I'm not an OOB guy. Maybe one of the other testers will comment on that.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 5:26:04 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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The Soviet evacuation of Riga opens the ugly question of the war at sea;  Is there one and how is it modeled?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 6:18:38 PM   
Alex Gilbert

 

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Elmo-

Many thanks for the AAR.  Very excited about the game.  Your earlier shot of losses reminded me of a question-- I believe it was said elsewhere in the forums that there is repair of some of the lost vehicles/planes (non-permanent losses)-- is there a way to see the numbers "in the shop" so that you could anticipate higher than normal replacements being available in future turns?

Also, in the above screen shot of AGN, there is a unit of 4th Pz group that is a black background-- is that simply to designate the "currently selected" unit, or is there another meaning to the black background.

Thanks for the preview of the game!

Alex


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 6:53:51 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

The Soviet evacuation of Riga opens the ugly question of the war at sea;  Is there one and how is it modeled?


Naval operations are somewhat abstracted and not fully implemented yet. Either side can do naval transport in the 4 sea zones (Baltic, Black, Caspian, and Sea of Azov). Soviets can do amphibious ops in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov. Air or naval interdiction is possible. Units on the coast can get supplies from a friendly port in the same sea. There are many details behind the scenes so this is just a quick overview to answer the question.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 7:07:45 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

Elmo-

Many thanks for the AAR.  Very excited about the game.  Your earlier shot of losses reminded me of a question-- I believe it was said elsewhere in the forums that there is repair of some of the lost vehicles/planes (non-permanent losses)-- is there a way to see the numbers "in the shop" so that you could anticipate higher than normal replacements being available in future turns?

Also, in the above screen shot of AGN, there is a unit of 4th Pz group that is a black background-- is that simply to designate the "currently selected" unit, or is there another meaning to the black background.

Thanks for the preview of the game!

Alex




Glad you like the AAR. There is a production screen that shows a lot of information about what is being produced and what is in the various "pools" as they are called. Not sure it's in a state to be shown yet as it might prompt a lot more questions than provide answers. I'll check on that.

The unit with the black background is Totenkopf SS Mot. Division. The Elite SS units have a black background.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 7:28:25 PM   
bosbes

 

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Just want to say I like this AAR screens a lot! I wets my appetite!

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 7:32:26 PM   
thackaray


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Depending on the detection level (see Joel's post in this thread) you get a rough idea of the defense value of the defenders. The defender may also add reserves and you don't see that until you are committed to the attack. Support units might also be added by either side.


I've got a question about at what stage can you manually add support units to divisions? I understand that the HQ can throw extra units into combat.

I also understand that the player can add units before combat begins. Can the player add extra support units once combat begins?

The scenario which I was thinking about was that an Axis Div started in a hex opposite a Sov unit. Before the Axis unit moves into combat it has no support units attached, during the first push by that unit to initiate combat, the HQ doesn't throw units into help. That attack is repulsed. That Axis unit still has enough points to attack again, so the player adds support units for the next attack. This time the attack succeeds.

Is this scenario possible ? If so, it's a gamey way to recon the strength of an opposing unit.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 9:29:19 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thackaray

I've got a question about at what stage can you manually add support units to divisions? I understand that the HQ can throw extra units into combat.

I also understand that the player can add units before combat begins. Can the player add extra support units once combat begins?

The scenario which I was thinking about was that an Axis Div started in a hex opposite a Sov unit. Before the Axis unit moves into combat it has no support units attached, during the first push by that unit to initiate combat, the HQ doesn't throw units into help. That attack is repulsed. That Axis unit still has enough points to attack again, so the player adds support units for the next attack. This time the attack succeeds.

Is this scenario possible ? If so, it's a gamey way to recon the strength of an opposing unit.


Support units can be attached directly to a combat unit at any point during movement. You could attack a defender then manually attach support units and then attack again if you had enough MP's left. Remember that turns are a week long so multiple battles can occur in that week. I'm not going to debate whether this is gamey or not. You always have the option not to do it if it bothers you but it is working as intended as far as the designers are concerned. I personally don't manually attach support units to combat units, not because it's gamey but because it's too much micro management for me. YMMV.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 9:50:28 PM   
kfmiller41


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I don't understand why that would be a gamey tactic? Sounds like a sound strategy to me. If you attack in the morning early, get repulsed by a tough position, you call for help (artillery, tanks ect) and try again. Happaned all the time from what I read on eastern front battles and I am sure american forces added support units all the time. Just my humble opinion of course

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 10:15:11 PM   
critter


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What is the cost in movement points to attack? Does it change in diff terrain and seasons?
Do they change if you have a successful vs failed attack?


What do you think? Are you happy with your progress in your AAR so far?

< Message edited by critter -- 2/18/2010 10:16:55 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/18/2010 10:44:03 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

What is the cost in movement points to attack? Does it change in diff terrain and seasons?
Do they change if you have a successful vs failed attack?


What do you think? Are you happy with your progress in your AAR so far?


Cost in MP's for the attack varies based on Hasty vs Deliberate attack and whether it's across a major or minor river. The attack MP costs vary for mech/motorized and non-motorized. Other terrain and weather will affect MP's for movement but not the attack MP modifiers. The cost in MP's is not affected by a successful or failed attack.

Once turn 3 is complete I'll have more to say about my progress. Hope to finish up the turn later tonight.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 2/18/2010 10:51:45 PM >


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 1:04:46 AM   
elmo3

 

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If this were a movie we would now cut to the scene at von Bock's AGC HQ in Novogrudok.  He would be hunched over the daily situation map with air recon photos spread out around him, shaking his head.  After reviewing the photos an aide would overhear him mumbling something about poking a large bear with a short pointy stick.  He would glance into the next room and say "Major Schultz did you put in those requisitions for winter gear and engine heaters?".  "Yes sir".  "And..." von Bock would say looking disgruntled.  "Request denied sir...and we have another urgent request from General Guderian for the return of his XXXXVI Corps." replied the Major looking away quickly.  "Get me Halder on the phone Major." sighed von Bock.

9th Army (green) will move into position between Minsk and the Dvina to the north and do most of the fighting in front of Smolensk.  3rd Pz Grp (light green) will swing north between Smolensk and Velikie Luki and attempt to envelop Soviet forces from the north.  2nd Pz Grp (light blue) will cross the Dnepr south of Mogilev, then swing north and attempt to link up with 3rd Pz Grp behind Smolensk.  I changed my mind regarding the Pripyat Marsh and will be sending two corps from 4th Army (dark blue) to root out any Soviet stragglers while the rest of 4th Army secures Guderian's right flank.




< Message edited by elmo3 -- 2/19/2010 1:15:38 AM >


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 2:13:32 AM   
elmo3

 

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Much to von Rundstedt's dismay he received word the XXXXVI Corp is being returned to AGC.  I also forgot to mention that the 2nd Army has arrived to further bolster AGC.  Meanwhile AGS finished off all but one straggler in the pocket and is once again moving toward Kiev.  The 6th Army (purple) will move along the nothern edges of the marsh to help clear any remaining Soviets.  1st Pz Grp (red) will continue to carry the brunt of the fighting in this area.  The 17th Army (brown) will regroup now that the pocket is cleared and move up behind 1st Pz Grp as a reserve. 




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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 2:17:30 AM   
elmo3

 

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And further still to the south the Rumanians (baby blue) and 11th Army (purple) are pushing their way slowly east.




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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 2:35:15 AM   
elmo3

 

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And here are the losses through turn 3:





I was pleased with the progress until seeing what lay in front of us at Smolensk.  July 10th (start of turn 4) was the beginning of the fight for Smolensk according to Glantz.  That will not really happen this coming turn.  That is in part becasue I'm going for a big envelopment and partly because the infantry has not caught up yet due to the time spent reducing the pocket on turn 2.  So in my mind we are a bit behind now in the center.  I'd have to check maps for the north and south but progress there feels to be about right.  Not seeing much Soviet resistance up north so we will press ahead as fast as we can but more Soviet units are starting to show up on recon down south which can't be a good sign and will require us to proceed with a bit of caution.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 4:24:52 AM   
Zort

 

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For the axis allied losses, are they shown somewhere else or are they all just lumped together?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 11:18:37 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

For the axis allied losses, are they shown somewhere else or are they all just lumped together?


Losses are lumped together. Here is a screen shot of part of the OOB. While it does not show losses it does show men and weapons in the armed forces by country.



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 11:46:28 AM   
Lützow


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Thank you for this Alpha AAR. Looks pretty well so far, but instead of solely showing results I'd also like to see screenshots about combat resolution and how unit orders are issued.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 12:10:06 PM   
Platypus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Early-war, "Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" attached to AGN comes to mind, and should be there somewhere...



Sorry I'm not an OOB guy. Maybe one of the other testers will comment on that.



@ Brad -- have you found any further references to this unit??

I also looked for data on GER OOB - couldn't find any -- however -- here is a reference to the Fallschirmjäger Order of Battle in 1939;

"Despite Student's drive and the fact that the building of German airborne forces was pushed forward as quickly as possible, by the outbreak of World War II neither the 7th Flieger Division nor the 22nd Division were at full strength."

"The roles and purposes of the two formations were as follows: the 22nd Division was a conventional army infantry formation whose regiments would be transported to the target in Junkers Ju 52 aircraft."

"There was sufficient aircraft on the strength of 7th Flieger Division's Special Operations Air Transport Group to move 5000 men in a single lift."

"The operational method was for the aircraft to land units of the 22nd on airfields behind enemy lines which had been captured by paratroops and/or glider units. Once the soldiers of the 22nd Division had deplaned, they would operate as conventional infantry."

"The parachute-trained units of the 7th Flieger Division would be landed by parachute or brought in by glider."


REF: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/info_34.html



After the significant losses during the Crete ops [just prior to Barbarossa] similar large-scale Air-landings were forbidden, although there are other references that 4 Regts of Fallschirmjäger operated on the Eastern Front. I have yet to find further references as to whether they were used for their designed role.

If the OOB sticks to historical data, then the presence of these units on the Eastern Front may enable some specialist operations similar to Eben Emael.

cheers



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 12:31:31 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Thank you for this Alpha AAR. Looks pretty well so far, but instead of solely showing results I'd also like to see screenshots about combat resolution and how unit orders are issued.

You're welcome. I'll post some combat results from turn 4. You don't issue orders. If you want to move you click on a unit or stack and then click where you want them to go. Same with attack.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 2:56:50 PM   
Great_Ajax


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7th Flieger Division is in game and arrives and withdraws according to the historical schedule. I know also that the 2nd and 9th Fallschirmjager Divisions arrive eventually and maybe the 10th as well (all off the top of my head). Although I have never tried an airborne drop, the option is there to do it. I am contemplating with Jim and Pavel whether to add these Luftwaffe Regiments under Meindl. They never saw any front line combat and were used by Army Group North for security in rear areas. They were incorporated into the Luftwaffe Feld Divisions 6-8 months later and these units are in the game.

Also, if you add these regiments, the player could completely grind these regiments (ahistorically) out in ground combat without worrying about the repurcussions since they will be arbitarily withdrawn once the Luftwaffe Feld Divisions arrive. In reality, if a commander grinded these regiments out in ground combat, there would be no replacements to fill out the two Luftwaffe Feld Divisions that arrived later so essentially you have given the player about a half dozen of "free" regiments.


Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Early-war, "Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" attached to AGN comes to mind, and should be there somewhere...



Sorry I'm not an OOB guy. Maybe one of the other testers will comment on that.



@ Brad -- have you found any further references to this unit??

I also looked for data on GER OOB - couldn't find any -- however -- here is a reference to the Fallschirmjäger Order of Battle in 1939;

"Despite Student's drive and the fact that the building of German airborne forces was pushed forward as quickly as possible, by the outbreak of World War II neither the 7th Flieger Division nor the 22nd Division were at full strength."

"The roles and purposes of the two formations were as follows: the 22nd Division was a conventional army infantry formation whose regiments would be transported to the target in Junkers Ju 52 aircraft."

"There was sufficient aircraft on the strength of 7th Flieger Division's Special Operations Air Transport Group to move 5000 men in a single lift."

"The operational method was for the aircraft to land units of the 22nd on airfields behind enemy lines which had been captured by paratroops and/or glider units. Once the soldiers of the 22nd Division had deplaned, they would operate as conventional infantry."

"The parachute-trained units of the 7th Flieger Division would be landed by parachute or brought in by glider."


REF: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/info_34.html



After the significant losses during the Crete ops [just prior to Barbarossa] similar large-scale Air-landings were forbidden, although there are other references that 4 Regts of Fallschirmjäger operated on the Eastern Front. I have yet to find further references as to whether they were used for their designed role.

If the OOB sticks to historical data, then the presence of these units on the Eastern Front may enable some specialist operations similar to Eben Emael.

cheers






< Message edited by el hefe -- 2/19/2010 3:04:44 PM >


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 3:08:50 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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Elmo3, how accurate are the casualty reports that you've been getting?  I note that the USSR has reportedly lost more than 2/3 of it's AFV force within the first month of the war.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/19/2010 3:30:08 PM   
Montbrun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Early-war, "Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" attached to AGN comes to mind, and should be there somewhere...



Sorry I'm not an OOB guy. Maybe one of the other testers will comment on that.






@ Brad -- have you found any further references to this unit??

I also looked for data on GER OOB - couldn't find any -- however -- here is a reference to the Fallschirmjäger Order of Battle in 1939;

"Despite Student's drive and the fact that the building of German airborne forces was pushed forward as quickly as possible, by the outbreak of World War II neither the 7th Flieger Division nor the 22nd Division were at full strength."

"The roles and purposes of the two formations were as follows: the 22nd Division was a conventional army infantry formation whose regiments would be transported to the target in Junkers Ju 52 aircraft."

"There was sufficient aircraft on the strength of 7th Flieger Division's Special Operations Air Transport Group to move 5000 men in a single lift."

"The operational method was for the aircraft to land units of the 22nd on airfields behind enemy lines which had been captured by paratroops and/or glider units. Once the soldiers of the 22nd Division had deplaned, they would operate as conventional infantry."

"The parachute-trained units of the 7th Flieger Division would be landed by parachute or brought in by glider."


REF: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/info_34.html



After the significant losses during the Crete ops [just prior to Barbarossa] similar large-scale Air-landings were forbidden, although there are other references that 4 Regts of Fallschirmjäger operated on the Eastern Front. I have yet to find further references as to whether they were used for their designed role.

If the OOB sticks to historical data, then the presence of these units on the Eastern Front may enable some specialist operations similar to Eben Emael.

cheers





"Luftwaffen-Division Meindl" was an ad-hoc unit used primarily for rear area security. It wasn't Falshirmjager, but performed well.


(in reply to Platypus)
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