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The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 8:23:28 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
My motivation to type this is simple that I still notice (in AARīs and single posts) lots of complaints about the way airstrikes are coordinated.

Im not sure why so many have a hard time understanding mission (Iīm using this term on purpose as its not only valid for strikes) coordination. Maybe its
because many look at it from a bombers vs. fighters or mission type by mission type perspective.

This is simply not the case.

If I understand the coordination model correctly (which I think I do because most of my flights coordinate nicely, except for unavoidable "escort looses contact with raid" situations
or bad weather/luck) its VERY simple and can be enhanced by the player to a complexity level of his own desire.

So I hope I my can help and tried to write the

The Air Mission Coordination Guide
(if you have comments please comment, Iīm by far not the end of all knowledge on this topic )

What the game tries to do is to coordinate missions based on altitude, range and target.
There are some other factors as plane type but these are minor ones.

Lets start with a single base of origin and a single base as a target, base A and B.

1) Attacker has 1 fighter and 1 bomber squad at base A and wants to fly a coordinated attack on base B.

Thats the simple scenario that everyone should have guessed how to best coordinate: simply by setting the fighters to the same altitude as the bombers
(additionaly but not mandatory the fighter squad could be set to target B).
The game engine recognizes this and tries to coordinate the attack. Leadership, pilot experience and weather and a bad dice roll still can prevent coordination
but chances are high that the strike arrives on target at the same time as the escorting fighters.

2) Attacker has 2 fighter and 2 bomber squads at A and wants to attack B.

Now the player has a choice:

He could set all squads to the same altitude the game engine makes the same check as in 1) and tries to coordinate the strike. The chance of success is probably a bit
reduced because there are more squads (more leadership checks and other dice rolls involved) but most probably the 4 squads arrive at the same time over target.

On the other hand the player could do something different:

He can set 1 fighter and 1 bomber squad to, say, 10k alt and the other two to 11k.
Whats the result? The game engine makes the usual check on altitude and tries to plan 2 coordinated strikes, one with the first pair and one with the second.
Chances are high that the first bomber pack arrives with first escort and the second bomber pack with the second escort.
But the engine makes a second check: if all 4 squads have the same target selected there is a (reduced) chance that all 4 squadrons arrive on target but it
has a significantly lower chance than in the example above.

What is the advantage of the second choice?
Well, plain and simple the second way of doing things has a higher chance of coordination per strike, because the strike packages are smaller.
So theres is less chance that somewhere in the resolution phase a lonely bomber squad arrives on target completely without excort.
Its easier to coordinate 2 40 planes strikes than 1 80 plane strike!


3) Now we add a 3rd base, C, another enemy base. Lets say the distance to the bases is the same, so range doesnt matter.

The attacker wants wants to attack base B with an escorted strike and base C without escorts because he knows this base has no fighter cover.

Solution: He sets bomber squad 1 to 10k and targets base B, both fighter squadrons are set to without target selection 10k.
The second bomber squadron is set to 11k and base C as a target.

The game engine makes the altitude check and recognizes that bomber squadron 1 and both fighter squads want to get coordinated.
So chances are high that the result is an escorted attack on B and an unescorted on C.

4) This is the last one (phew) and the most comlicated but I just want to show what you can accomplish with strike coordination if used wisely:

The attacker has 3 Bases. A, B and C
The defender has 2 Bases, D and E


Base A and B are pure bomber bases, base C is a fighter base, closer to the frontline.

Lets say you want to make a coordinated strike on base D, which is heavily guarded, and E which is lightly guarded but needs the higher success rate (for whatever reason)
Number of squadrons is not of importance but please do not forget that the higher the number of squadrons/planes involved, the lower the chances that
every single strike gets coordinated.

First you could select with which bombers to attack which target base. You select all bombers on base A to attack base E and want some frome base B to join
the fun because the strike on E needs to hit home. The rest attacks base D

So:
Base A: select target E, select 10k for all base A bombers.
Base B: select 50% of the bombers to target base E and set them to 10k. Set the rest of the bombers to target base D
and set them to 12k.

Why? Because now comes the fighters. and you want them to escort exactly what you tell them to and leave no chances (or at least as few as possible).
As said before, base D is better guarded. Because of this set e.g. 70% of the fighters to 12k, split between sweep and escort mission however you desire
(and target base D but, again, you donīt have to because the coordination based on altitude could be enough)
Set the rest to 10k and also either escort or sweep.

What does the game engine do now? It again checks for alt coordination. It recognizes you want to coordinate a strike on base D with 50% of base B bombers
and 70% of base C fighters and tries to accomplish it.
It also recognizes you want to coordinate 100% base A bombers and 50% of base B bombers with 30% of base C fighters to attack base E and tries to accomplish
it.

If all goes well you get two beautifully coordinated strikes. There are many things that can go wrong but this way you maximize the chances.

Doīs and dontīs:

- Select different altitudes for your strikes in one area. This is important. You are unneccesarily confusing the game engine if you donīt.

- Other missions that take place in the same area that do not need coordination for whatever resaon should also be set to unique altitudes

- Never assume that a sweep arrives before a strike just because sweeps should launch before the strike. This is only true combined with altitude
coordination!

- Smaller strikers have much higher chances of coordination than a 250 plane I-want-to-dim-out-the-sun whacker. If you can accomplish something with low
numbers or expect high resistance its sometimes better to plan several smaller strikes on different altitude bands than a single big one which simply is
to large to get proper coordination and could lead to completely unescorted raids.

- Donīt forget that theres more factors involved: range to target, AC type, weather over orogin and target bases, leadership value, pilot experience.
Adapt to those factors!

- Trying to attack a heavily guarded base from 4 directions, with 10 different plane types, without training, wrong leaders during a thunderstorm
and other missions set to the same altitude is the best way to improve the mood of your opponent.




Iīm quite new to writing guides, I hope this helps some. I know it works for me, and if it didnīt, well, then I usually can find out in no time why it
didnīt.

Good hunting guys!





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RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 8:36:07 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13814
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
thanks for this very detailed guide.

Iīve got bombers sitting in Australia at two bases that are always attacking split up, completely. The same has happened in India on and on when the bombers are at THE SAME base and attack THE SAME target at THE SAME altitude. Now this is the easiest task. It never works though, 50 bombers are split up into up to 5 piece meal strikes when they attack the same target from the same base at the same altitude. Funny so far...

Now then I decided to fly from both bases strikes with twice the number of bombers and it gets even funnier. Even though the range from the two bases to the same target is different, a "bigger" strike is combined from both bases to strike the same target. LOL, easier to combine a strike from two bases at different range than to go from one base? Sure not, but the game is doing this. So Iīve got the same number of bombers split up into two bases and get better strike packages than when launching from one base. Funny so far and itīs getting even better.

What Iīm saying here can be checked in my AAR, so this is not something out of my fantasy by the way. While I had bombers launching from one base in India coming in as totally piece meal strikes, I now have my bombers at 5!!!! different bases, all without escorts!!!! and the fighters are sitting at the 6th base!!! Want to know the alt of the bombers and the fighters? All bombers are at 6000ft and all fighters are at their max ceiling due to the fact that they also do Cap. Now this is the best example of how it should NOT lead to combined or coordinated strikes. What do you think is happening? LOL, bombers flying at 6000ft from 5 different bases with 5 different ranges to target are combined up with the fighters that are flying at around 30.000ft from the closest base to target as escorts. Itīs only making you shaking your head when you watch the replays and you are constantly (100% of the time) unable to launch 50 bombers from the same base together at the same alt to the same target but you get a hundred bombers together with 30 fighters combine up from 6 different bases with the fighters flying 25.000ft higher than the bombers.

Seriously, thereīs something not working at all. I will take a screenshot with the "strike lines" next time Iīll attack to show it in my AAR. Oh, I forgot to say that Iīm not just flying from 6 different bases at 6 different ranges to target and the fighters at different alts, Iīm also using all kind of bombers and fighters. Could it get any worse? Sure not and itīs still working better than to launch from a single level 8 airfield with a HQ, ten thousands of supplies with mostly the same aircraft type at the same altitude to the same target... lol

As Rainer79 is my opponent and noone trusts me anyway anymore, he could confirm what is happening as he also sees the "strike lines" when my bombers and fighters are coming in from 5 or 6 different directions, all at once. Ok, not all at once but in perfectly looking strike packages.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/11/2010 8:54:45 AM >


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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 2
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 8:46:54 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13814
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
Hereīs the recent example:

Morning Air attack on 48th Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 2



Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 15
Blenheim IV x 35
Hudson IIIa x 17
Hurricane IIb Trop x 30
Hudson I x 19


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 11 damaged
Hudson IIIa: 5 damaged
Hudson I: 7 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Hudson I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hudson I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
14 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
14 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet
3 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 27th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 48th Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Guards Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes


Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 15
Blenheim IV x 49
Hudson IIIa x 9
P-40B Warhawk x 19


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 5 damaged
Hudson IIIa: 3 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
11 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
9 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb

Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Guards Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes


Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 16


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
25 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb




all bombers in India are "split up" into three strikes. Two of which are perfectly coordinated and both have escorts. Only the Wellingtons were left behind. And this is the example when the bombers are coming from 5 different bases, different bomber types and the fighters are at another base, all fighters set to max ceiling, so not even the fighters between themselve are at the same alt. strike coordination works just fine here.

While I totally agree with LoBaronīs guide itīs more of theory than what actually happens in the game it seems. And Iīm not saying it "shouldnīt" work like LoBaron is saying. Unfortunetely (for me) the complete opposite is happening, because my strikes out of India are exactly what he describes in the DONTīS (and are working just fine) and my strikes out of Australia are the perfect example of DOīS (and arenīt working at all).+


As a side note, 165 bombers caused 25 casualties...

< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/11/2010 8:49:51 AM >


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RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 9:03:11 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

thanks for this very detailed posts.

Iīve got bombers sitting in Australia at two bases that are always attacking split up, completely. The same has happened in India on and on when the bombers are at THE SAME base and attack THE SAME target at THE SAME altitude. Now this is the easiest task. It never works though, 50 bombers are split up into up to 5 piece meal strikes when they attack the same target from the same base at the same altitude. Funny so far...

Now then I decided to fly from both bases strikes with twice the number of bombers and it gets even funnier. Even though the range from the two bases to the same target is different, a "bigger" strike is combined from both bases to strike the same target. LOL, easier to combine a strike from two bases at different range than to go from one base? Sure not, but the game is doing this. So Iīve got the same number of bombers split up into two bases and get better strike packages than when launching from one base. Funny so far and itīs getting even better.

What Iīm saying here can be checked in my AAR, so this is not something out of my fantasy by the way. While I had bombers launching from one base in India coming in as totally piece meal strikes, I now have my bombers at 5!!!! different bases, all without escorts!!!! and the fighters are sitting at the 6th base!!! Want to know the alt of the bombers and the fighters? All bombers are at 6000ft and all fighters are at their max ceiling due to the fact that they also do Cap. Now this is the best example of how it should NOT lead to combined or coordinated strikes. What do you think is happening? LOL, bombers flying at 6000ft from 5 different bases with 5 different ranges to target are combined up with the fighters that are flying at around 30.000ft from the closest base to target as escorts. Itīs only making you shaking your head when you watch the replays and you are constantly (100% of the time) unable to launch 50 bombers from the same base together at the same alt to the same target but you get a hundred bombers together with 30 fighters combine up from 6 different bases with the fighters flying 25.000ft higher than the bombers.

Seriously, thereīs something not working at all. I will take a screenshot with the "strike lines" next time Iīll attack to show it in my AAR. Oh, I forgot to say that Iīm not just flying from 6 different bases at 6 different ranges to target and the fighters at different alts, Iīm also using all kind of bombers and fighters. Could it get any worse? Sure not and itīs still working better than to launch from a single level 8 airfield with a HQ, ten thousands of supplies with mostly the same aircraft type at the same altitude to the same target... lol


Iīd definitely check weather, base overstacking, other missions flown from the same base(s), all other missions flown in the same operational area
with similar altitude setting, AF support, morale, fatigue, pilot experience...
With a single squadron set to attack I also noted that a complete split-up sometimes happens. Maybe there is no coordination check done for single squad attacks,
but as soon as you assign an escort as I tried to describe above it works for me.

I nearly never get those confusing results you mention, and if they look confusing it mostly takes me 10 seconds to find an explanation.

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Post #: 4
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 9:54:01 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13814
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

thanks for this very detailed posts.

Iīve got bombers sitting in Australia at two bases that are always attacking split up, completely. The same has happened in India on and on when the bombers are at THE SAME base and attack THE SAME target at THE SAME altitude. Now this is the easiest task. It never works though, 50 bombers are split up into up to 5 piece meal strikes when they attack the same target from the same base at the same altitude. Funny so far...

Now then I decided to fly from both bases strikes with twice the number of bombers and it gets even funnier. Even though the range from the two bases to the same target is different, a "bigger" strike is combined from both bases to strike the same target. LOL, easier to combine a strike from two bases at different range than to go from one base? Sure not, but the game is doing this. So Iīve got the same number of bombers split up into two bases and get better strike packages than when launching from one base. Funny so far and itīs getting even better.

What Iīm saying here can be checked in my AAR, so this is not something out of my fantasy by the way. While I had bombers launching from one base in India coming in as totally piece meal strikes, I now have my bombers at 5!!!! different bases, all without escorts!!!! and the fighters are sitting at the 6th base!!! Want to know the alt of the bombers and the fighters? All bombers are at 6000ft and all fighters are at their max ceiling due to the fact that they also do Cap. Now this is the best example of how it should NOT lead to combined or coordinated strikes. What do you think is happening? LOL, bombers flying at 6000ft from 5 different bases with 5 different ranges to target are combined up with the fighters that are flying at around 30.000ft from the closest base to target as escorts. Itīs only making you shaking your head when you watch the replays and you are constantly (100% of the time) unable to launch 50 bombers from the same base together at the same alt to the same target but you get a hundred bombers together with 30 fighters combine up from 6 different bases with the fighters flying 25.000ft higher than the bombers.

Seriously, thereīs something not working at all. I will take a screenshot with the "strike lines" next time Iīll attack to show it in my AAR. Oh, I forgot to say that Iīm not just flying from 6 different bases at 6 different ranges to target and the fighters at different alts, Iīm also using all kind of bombers and fighters. Could it get any worse? Sure not and itīs still working better than to launch from a single level 8 airfield with a HQ, ten thousands of supplies with mostly the same aircraft type at the same altitude to the same target... lol


Iīd definitely check weather, base overstacking, other missions flown from the same base(s), all other missions flown in the same operational area
with similar altitude setting, AF support, morale, fatigue, pilot experience...
With a single squadron set to attack I also noted that a complete split-up sometimes happens. Maybe there is no coordination check done for single squad attacks,
but as soon as you assign an escort as I tried to describe above it works for me.

I nearly never get those confusing results you mention, and if they look confusing it mostly takes me 10 seconds to find an explanation.



all is well and Iīm aware of all the factors. It hasnīt worked for over four months game time and it will be the same the next four months. No overstacking, huge airfield, HQ, supplies, aviation support, no matter what weather, everything is just fine (except an inofficial tip from a dev that hasnīt been confirmed yet and been doubted by another dev).

Itīs not a single squad attack, there are several squads attacking the same target at the same range at the same alt from the same base and I see those attacks being split up in up to five piecemeal strikes. Have yet to see more than 5 though. 5 must be the maximum of screwed up attacks.

But just look at my attacks from India, they are just perfectly fine but should be 100% screwed up due to the fact I donīt follow the "what you should do things" at all...

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Post #: 5
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 10:00:30 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
I also have noticed that a squadron who should join the attack always attacked in a separate raid.
I didnīt mind because they were unopposed raids and so it was not a high priority issue to adress.

When I finally did take a closer look I noticed that the straggler squadron was assigned to a different HQ than the others.
Still have to find out if this is the reason because atm I lack the PPīs to find out yet.

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Post #: 6
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 10:03:22 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13814
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I also have noticed that a squadron who should join the attack always attacked in a separate raid.
I didnīt mind because they were unopposed raids and so it was not a high priority issue to adress.

When I finally did take a closer look I noticed that the straggler squadron was assigned to a different HQ than the others.
Still have to find out if this is the reason because atm I lack the PPīs to find out yet.



yeah thatīs a good tip, but that would be true for my squadrons in India too but they combine just fine, even though under the WORST conditions they could have. They donīt combine when coming from a single, non overstacked base though. Therefore my statement about it being "easier" to have strikes out of 5 or 6 different bases combining than a strike from one base. At least in my game. And thatīs what I think is funny, because Iīm aware of what you state in your guide as this is what has been told on the forum on and on. I havenīt heard yet from the devs that I talked to what the problem really is.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/11/2010 10:04:41 AM >


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RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 12:00:15 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
BTW, CT, just rechecked on the combat report you posted above.

Its not obvious because of the high number of planes involved, but your strike is probably as uncoordinated as the ones you
are complaining about.

Just because the extreme high numbers of planes involved results in some fighters arriving at the same time as some
bombers just by chance, - which leads to a percieved coordination - that does not neccesarily mean that it was something
related to a game engine calculation.
If you throw enough planes of different types at the same target, naturally some of them arrive at the same time.

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Post #: 8
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 2:13:33 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13814
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

BTW, CT, just rechecked on the combat report you posted above.

Its not obvious because of the high number of planes involved, but your strike is probably as uncoordinated as the ones you
are complaining about.

Just because the extreme high numbers of planes involved results in some fighters arriving at the same time as some
bombers just by chance, - which leads to a percieved coordination - that does not neccesarily mean that it was something
related to a game engine calculation.
If you throw enough planes of different types at the same target, naturally some of them arrive at the same time.



no, one thing is for sure, itīs definetely NOT as uncoordinated as the ones I am complaining about. Why? Because in the cr posted above Iīve got 150 bombers launching in two strikes together from 5 different bases (with fighters from the 6th base) while the strikes I am complaining about launch 40-50 bombers from the same base in 4 or 5 piece meal strikes.

For me itīs quite a difference to see 180 ac from 6 different bases join in on the same target in two strikes to 50 ac from the same base being split up in 5 strikes on the same target. Huge difference.

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RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 4:01:49 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
LoBaron

You have a future in writing manuals...I certainly didnt get that out of the rules book...I'll give your suggestions a whack.

Thanks.

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Andy M

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 10
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 5:16:22 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Thanks for the kind words topeverest. 

Still keep in mind that I simply base this on my personal experience with the game and on what valuable information I get from the manual
and reading this forum.

castor troy has some valid points that might prove that some influences outweight others,
which should be logically more important, but I think it works fine.


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RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 5:30:53 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21101
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Combine this with the pilot-training instructions in another thread and you can spend countless hours learning the innumerable things needed to possibly handle one small part of the game efficiently and correctly (though luck and a thousand random variables will often negate your efforts).

After digesting this, move on to search arc settings, rest percentage, CAP percentage, the need to withdraw restricting aircraft that you could never have used in the game anyhow, withdraw vs. disband, basing limits based upon base size, basing limits based upon base force personnel, arming with bomb vs. torpedo, which bases will re-arm torpedoes, which HQ units will assist with rearming torpedoes, skip bombing vs. dive bomging vs. level bombing, the difference between air cargo handled by an AK and that handled by an AKV, the effect of air HQ, the range of air HQ effects, and probably two- or three-thousand other things that affect or involve the air war in AE.



< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/11/2010 5:40:49 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 12
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 5:44:36 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
LOL you hit the nail Canorebel.

Although I think the true art, and that is probably only learned in a GC PBEM you are so far with (avid reader here, I can only encourage to read the AAR),
is starting to guess which are the important things and what can be negated or automated over time without too much negative effect.


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Post #: 13
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 6:24:35 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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CT, can you state the range of the one airfield strike versus the range of the 5(6) airfield strike?

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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 14
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 7:15:56 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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LB , as your opponent i can see where your geting the co-ordination ideas from. I can also see Castors Aussie problems too. My B17 raids on buna/Lae are all from Twonsville (as you no doubt can work out) same HQ, same Alt, Same A/C model, yet they more often than not arrive in 2-4 waves with one biggie and 1-3 dribbling in after. I'm not overstacked and don't have an Air HQ anyway to help.

In theory i agree 100% on your original post and it's a well written and thought out theory. I do wish the game worked that way more transparently and its quite possible you are correct but there are most probably many unknow factors we just arent aware of (like is there a mission threshold number? , EG over 40 bombers theres additional checks etc. ). I think the dark arts master has his hands full on this one .

another oddity thrown up in our game is Naval strikes, at the risk of giving away intel . MY CV's can coordinate DB/TB + Ftr escort , but every single attack from lunga has been escorted DB's followed by escorted TB's (never ever TB+DB in the same attack) . Humm , just had a thought about that, Lunga is a size 2 so are the raids restricted to 2 diff types of a/c from smaller bases ? eg SBD+F4 (2) followed by TBF+F4 (2) rather than all 3 in one raid . Also according to the manual i should be overstacked there with 3 groups but it's not showing up (i am well under 100 planes though).

Now my brain hurts from trying to figure out some sort of 'theory of everything' regarding AE .

GL sorting this can of worms out folks , be keeping an eye on this one as you've attracted some 'heavy hitters' here LoBaron .. interesting ideas.



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(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 15
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/11/2010 7:50:08 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

LB , as your opponent i can see where your geting the co-ordination ideas from. I can also see Castors Aussie problems too. My B17 raids on buna/Lae are all from Twonsville (as you no doubt can work out) same HQ, same Alt, Same A/C model, yet they more often than not arrive in 2-4 waves with one biggie and 1-3 dribbling in after. I'm not overstacked and don't have an Air HQ anyway to help.

In theory i agree 100% on your original post and it's a well written and thought out theory. I do wish the game worked that way more transparently and its quite possible you are correct but there are most probably many unknow factors we just arent aware of (like is there a mission threshold number? , EG over 40 bombers theres additional checks etc. ). I think the dark arts master has his hands full on this one .

another oddity thrown up in our game is Naval strikes, at the risk of giving away intel . MY CV's can coordinate DB/TB + Ftr escort , but every single attack from lunga has been escorted DB's followed by escorted TB's (never ever TB+DB in the same attack) . Humm , just had a thought about that, Lunga is a size 2 so are the raids restricted to 2 diff types of a/c from smaller bases ? eg SBD+F4 (2) followed by TBF+F4 (2) rather than all 3 in one raid . Also according to the manual i should be overstacked there with 3 groups but it's not showing up (i am well under 100 planes though).

Now my brain hurts from trying to figure out some sort of 'theory of everything' regarding AE .

GL sorting this can of worms out folks , be keeping an eye on this one as you've attracted some 'heavy hitters' here LoBaron .. interesting ideas.




Thanks Rob

You got me thinking. Yes its true that most of my practical experience comes from my game against you and many of the small-medium
raids we fly called out for explanations. (tbh nearly all since I completely lost interest in playing against the AI )

I just right now start to think if there are only two reasons for some of the deviations we get form what I sold as "clean" theory.

- there are only so many raids possible in morning/afternoon attacks (maybe 3-4?). This could lead us to think that really large raids are better
coordinated because we only see a result of the fact that every assigned plane has to fly the attack at one of those timeframes. Then it would not mean
this percieved coordination is achieved through simple statistics instead of game engine forced coordination.

Combined with you thinking about a "coordination cap" at some point this could explain some oddities that contradict what I think is the
"should be" or intended formula.

Well at least we have some interesting ideas, even if it all proves to be wrong...
Sometimes this game feels like trying to explain the rotational velocity of galaxies and come out with something like dark matter and dark energy.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 2/11/2010 7:52:50 PM >


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Post #: 16
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/12/2010 2:31:02 PM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
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Hm just thought of somwthing new to ponder on:

Everbody knows the "escort looses contact with raid" messages that sometimes result in the escort continuing to
target as a fighter sweep or rtb.

What if thos bomber stragglers that occur on a regular basis just happen to be "bombers losing contact with raid"
but we just donīt see the messages?

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Post #: 17
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/12/2010 3:53:52 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

CT, can you state the range of the one airfield strike versus the range of the 5(6) airfield strike?



Unfortunetely Iīm giving my opponent some intel on my Indian based airforce but hey ho. I canīt tell you the exact distances but my "combined" strikes are meeting up when they are coming from Calcutta, Diamond Harbour, Chittagong, Dacca and Imphal. 6 bases (5 of which are bomber bases and 1 is a fighter base - the closest of course). Guess you can figure out that the range varies from 6 bases to Coxīs Bazar.

The one airfield strike (in India) was launched mostly from Calcutta. The one (or two) airfield strikes in Australia are launched from Townsville and Cairns against various bases. And the 5, 6 or 2 staging base strikes all work better than the "we fly all from the same airfield". And this is strange to me so to say.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 2/12/2010 3:54:15 PM >


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Post #: 18
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/12/2010 5:57:28 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Hereīs the recent example:

Morning Air attack on 48th Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 2



Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 15
Blenheim IV x 35
Hudson IIIa x 17
Hurricane IIb Trop x 30
Hudson I x 19


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 11 damaged
Hudson IIIa: 5 damaged
Hudson I: 7 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Hudson I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hudson I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
14 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
14 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
7 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet
3 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
10 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Raid is overhead
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 27th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 48th Division ...
Also attacking 9th Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 38th Division ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Guards Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes


Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 15
Blenheim IV x 49
Hudson IIIa x 9
P-40B Warhawk x 19


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 5 damaged
Hudson IIIa: 3 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
12 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
11 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
9 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
15 x Blenheim I bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb

Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...
Also attacking Imperial Guards Division ...
Also attacking 9th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Guards Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Guards Division, at 54,43 (Cox's Bazar)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes


Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 16


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
25 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Wellington Ic bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb




all bombers in India are "split up" into three strikes. Two of which are perfectly coordinated and both have escorts. Only the Wellingtons were left behind. And this is the example when the bombers are coming from 5 different bases, different bomber types and the fighters are at another base, all fighters set to max ceiling, so not even the fighters between themselve are at the same alt. strike coordination works just fine here.

While I totally agree with LoBaronīs guide itīs more of theory than what actually happens in the game it seems. And Iīm not saying it "shouldnīt" work like LoBaron is saying. Unfortunetely (for me) the complete opposite is happening, because my strikes out of India are exactly what he describes in the DONTīS (and are working just fine) and my strikes out of Australia are the perfect example of DOīS (and arenīt working at all).+


As a side note, 165 bombers caused 25 casualties...


And really now! It is heavy rain for Crimmney sakes. I don't see where any of those strikes should be finding a target in heavy rain. That bothers me more than anything else I am seeing here.

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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 19
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/12/2010 6:07:01 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2448
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

CT, can you state the range of the one airfield strike versus the range of the 5(6) airfield strike?



Unfortunetely Iīm giving my opponent some intel on my Indian based airforce but hey ho. I canīt tell you the exact distances but my "combined" strikes are meeting up when they are coming from Calcutta, Diamond Harbour, Chittagong, Dacca and Imphal. 6 bases (5 of which are bomber bases and 1 is a fighter base - the closest of course). Guess you can figure out that the range varies from 6 bases to Coxīs Bazar.

The one airfield strike (in India) was launched mostly from Calcutta. The one (or two) airfield strikes in Australia are launched from Townsville and Cairns against various bases. And the 5, 6 or 2 staging base strikes all work better than the "we fly all from the same airfield". And this is strange to me so to say.


Yeah, I was just wondering if the range (regardless of number of bases flown from) had some kind of major impact on coordination. For example, as range increases from strike bases, increase coordination penalty accordingly.

Intuitively, the single base should work better, but I can say from experience that launching a lot of planes from the same airfield and forming up can sometimes be as problematic as joining over (near) the target. Fuel consumption while waiting for all planes to launch being one of the major factors...Again, intuitively, the weather should be a MAJOR factor.


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Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 20
RE: The Air Mission Coordination Guide - 2/22/2010 11:13:04 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Just to let you know, I made a new version of the Air Mission Coordination Guide and posted
it in the War Room.

I hope this explains the experienced results better than this one and gives a clearer understanding
of why seemingly uncoordinated attacks happen and what the reason behind this is.


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Post #: 21
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