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What to do with PCs and TBs?

 
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What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 3:15:05 AM   
CapAndGown


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I can't figure out what to do with these guys. They can't run with the big boys, and they are worthless escorts without depth charges. I am obviously not being creative enough. Someone help me out.
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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 3:18:16 AM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

I can't figure out what to do with these guys. They can't run with the big boys, and they are worthless escorts without depth charges. I am obviously not being creative enough. Someone help me out.


Use them as sacrificial lures and decoys?

(in reply to CapAndGown)
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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 3:30:20 AM   
wwengr


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The TB's are fast and can cause some damage, so keep them around, under air cover, and ready to react. This will force the Allied Player to tie up extra gunnery with his TF's. They are small so only 1 VP each if sunk.

The PC's can be an additional escort for short to mid-range convoys. They can add their machine guns to the AA and be a potential target in lieu of more valuable ships. If the convoy ends up in a surface engagment, the torpedoes can be effective. Otherwise, anchor them in a port where their machine guns can provide a little extra AA.

Not particularly useful, but both are only 1 VP if they get sunk.

EDIT: The VP of the TB and PC vary as most of them have a durability greater than 1. They are typically small craft that generate only a few Victory Points for the enemy if they sink them.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/31/2010 1:14:17 PM >


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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 1:00:16 PM   
John Lansford

 

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One of those annoying TB's actually torpedoed one of my cruisers when I intercepted the transport TF it was escorting, so I wouldn't exactly say they were useless.  The PB's appear to be early warning vessels ("look captain, a patrol boat just blew up!") for surface and sub attacks.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 1:48:22 PM   
topeverest


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Think of them as expendable assets for use in naval operations, both defensive and offsenive. You can use them as pickets, incremental targets, decoys, or extra fodder in cases where victory will come at a high cost.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 2:07:30 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Cap and Gown, they can be useful. Imagine one small AK. Add 1 of these PCs as escort and the enemy submarines will NOT attack on the surface...

In other words:

NO PC on that TF: a massacre...
a PC: the submarine will have to spend some torpedoes.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/31/2010 2:08:55 PM >


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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 2:46:21 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

I can't figure out what to do with these guys. They can't run with the big boys, and they are worthless escorts without depth charges. I am obviously not being creative enough. Someone help me out.

Also, IIRC, many of the IJN TBs upgrade in 1942 to have DC racks and ASW functionality. Save them for upgrades rather than use them in suicidal picket duty.

Re: the PCs w/o ASW functionality-I agree with PPs re: keeping them in transport TF for fending off submarine surface attacks. They can be used in a group as surface raiders around lightly defended enemy ports too.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 2:59:42 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


Also, IIRC, many of the IJN TBs upgrade in 1942 to have DC racks and ASW functionality. Save them for upgrades rather than use them in suicidal picket duty.

Re: the PCs w/o ASW functionality-I agree with PPs re: keeping them in transport TF for fending off submarine surface attacks. They can be used in a group as surface raiders around lightly defended enemy ports too.


Actually, it is the other way around. The TB's do not have DC upgrades. The PC's do get DC Racks in 6/42.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 4:23:03 PM   
CapAndGown


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No, the TBs upgrade eventually too. I have just been have TBs and PCs sit around in ports waiting for the time when they can upgrade. Although picket duty is something I might also consider. I need to check on their speed and endurance. If it is high enough, they can remain on station for a while and avoid fish thrown their way.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 6:48:20 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

No, the TBs upgrade eventually too. I have just been have TBs and PCs sit around in ports waiting for the time when they can upgrade. Although picket duty is something I might also consider. I need to check on their speed and endurance. If it is high enough, they can remain on station for a while and avoid fish thrown their way.


You are right. I missed that when I was looking through the database. The Torpedo Boats (TB) upgrade to Escort (E). They get good AA (for a boat) and depth charges.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 6:56:04 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

No, the TBs upgrade eventually too. I have just been have TBs and PCs sit around in ports waiting for the time when they can upgrade. Although picket duty is something I might also consider. I need to check on their speed and endurance. If it is high enough, they can remain on station for a while and avoid fish thrown their way.


You are right. I missed that when I was looking through the database. The Torpedo Boats (TB) upgrade to Escort (E). They get good AA (for a boat) and depth charges.

To further clarify, I don't think ALL of the PCs upgrade, hence my limiting terms re: using those that don't upgrade further.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 8:00:42 PM   
DeriKuk


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They keep the subs submerged, meaning that they can only use torpedoes - not guns - and then the subs have to leave sooner for a big base.

< Message edited by hjalmar99 -- 1/31/2010 8:01:13 PM >

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 1/31/2010 8:37:06 PM   
JWE

 

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If by TB, ya’ll mean the Tomozurus and Otoris, we did give them a couple DCs rails coming on line in about mid ’42.

As to PCs, since a PC is same as a PB, we tried to keep national differentiation, so a PC is an Allied thing, and a PB is the same thing, but Japanese. Just because something has a ‘type’ don’t mean the ‘type’ has a capability. There’s PBs and then there’s PBs; it’s all in the class definition. Some have DCs, some don’t, some get them in later war upgrades.

As Huey Newton liked to say, “flux, flux, all is flux”.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 2:11:06 PM   
xj900uk

 

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They have some use as amphibious landing force escorts, engaging shore batteries & taking their fire so that the more vulnerable transports aren't hit

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 2:51:49 PM   
fflaguna

 

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Are PCs worthwhile ASW platforms even without DC?

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 5:28:19 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

If by TB, ya’ll mean the Tomozurus and Otoris, we did give them a couple DCs rails coming on line in about mid ’42.

As to PCs, since a PC is same as a PB, we tried to keep national differentiation, so a PC is an Allied thing, and a PB is the same thing, but Japanese. Just because something has a ‘type’ don’t mean the ‘type’ has a capability. There’s PBs and then there’s PBs; it’s all in the class definition. Some have DCs, some don’t, some get them in later war upgrades.

As Huey Newton liked to say, “flux, flux, all is flux”.


The Japanese Momi Class is marked as a PC. Probably should be a PB.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 5:29:59 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fflaguna

Are PCs worthwhile ASW platforms even without DC?


PC/PB without DC racks or launchers have no ASW capability, so the short answer is no.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 5:40:11 PM   
fflaguna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: fflaguna

Are PCs worthwhile ASW platforms even without DC?


PC/PB without DC racks or launchers have no ASW capability, so the short answer is no.


I checked Japan in 1941, and it seems every PB I checked has DC racks. Japan only has 5x PC, which don't have DC racks.

I just read on another thread that ASW capability = number of DC racks, essentially. This is a useful tip.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 6:32:08 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr
The Japanese Momi Class is marked as a PC. Probably should be a PB.

One teensy weensy difference is PC can be part of a Fast Transport TF, a PB can't. Those 5 cut down Momi roaches do have some troop capacity, and 16 knots ain't all that bad, so we decided to make them PCs. These were the 5 that got disarmed in '39, lost 2 boilers, rerated as tenders in '40, and were subsequently used for training and local patrol boat duties. They did go operational now and then, and here and there.
quote:

ORIGINAL: fflaguna
I checked Japan in 1941, and it seems every PB I checked has DC racks. Japan only has 5x PC, which don't have DC racks.

They get some in mid '42.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 7:12:08 PM   
Q-Ball


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A good use for TBs early: Surface raiders around the PI, to kill all those fleeing merchies. They are good enough for that

Mostly though, save and convert them to Es. As ESCORTS, they are first-rate, because the crews will have high experience. Speed helps too. I use them to escort tankers.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 7:42:30 PM   
viberpol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

I can't figure out what to do with these guys. They can't run with the big boys, and they are worthless escorts without depth charges. I am obviously not being creative enough. Someone help me out.



I find Japanese TBs a good tool in anti PT screening groups.
With their high speed and high maneuverability and, last but not least, no light armament, they perform very good in this role. Think this way -- no machine guns or cannons means that every hit of their 12 cm gun almost always finishes with info "PT obliterated" -- which means that a single hit is enough to kill a PT.
During night combat your DDs shot with everything they've got, from machine guns to main guns... & sometimes are not that effective. Also if you loose a DD to PT it's a heavy loss. Loosing TB hurts less.


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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 11:40:38 PM   
CapAndGown


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Great idea. I have some PTs to deal with so I may give this a shot.

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/1/2010 11:51:16 PM   
treespider


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Even w/o depth charges I use them as escorts for smallish cargo runs...cuts down immensely on subs engaging with guns...

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RE: What to do with PCs and TBs? - 2/2/2010 1:34:37 PM   
xj900uk

 

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Agreed,  check the upgrades &/or conversions - some non-ASW TB's & PC's do get DC's at a later date

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