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Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 5:56:51 PM   
Buck Beach

 

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What does one Motor Support vehicle represent, one vehicle, group of vehicles or vehicle and personnel needed for a vehicle (device 253)? Same question for Engineer Vehicles (device 250)? How about other devices representing vehicles (armor etc)?

How many personnel is represented by one Engineer (device 251)?
Post #: 1
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 6:09:14 PM   
JuanG


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I was under the impression that for vehicles, one device represented one vehicle and its crew. So for trucks and engineering vehicles that would be the machine itself and the operators.

As for engineer squads, my understanding is that as their loadcost is 8, they represent 8 engineers and their gear. I may be wrong on that one however.

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RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 9:05:57 PM   
JWE

 

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Buck, to you and Juan, the answer is both yes and no. You have to think in two contexts – irl and game. Actually you have to think in six different contexts.

The first (and second and third) is defining squads, guns, and stuff, in terms of their historical numbers. The next is redistributing all that in terms of the game system – relative AV values, relative load cost, relative sizes for Atoll deployment. So put a stake in the ground at a historical TO&E, and see what happens. Because of their specific organization, the Japanese have “significantly” more “squads” than anybody else, but under the combat algorithms this is disproportionate, so instead of 4 ‘squads’ of 13 per platoon, a better fit was 3 ‘squads’ of 17, which works much better in the relational AV portion of the combat algorithm, and gives the same number of “troops” for load and island population purposes.

The next is Guns. They are defined by ‘crew size’, but also by load footprint. Crew size is the measure of “troops” that the device will call for when loading, or populating an Atoll. Load footprint refers to the physical value of the LC – a 155mm gun can have a “crew” of 18 for “troop” purposes, but a LC of 18 puts it in the Hvy category for load, so it loads at 6 x 18 for load footprint.

And then there’s Vehicles. Now just what exactly is the ‘crew size’ (LC) of a Vehicle. Yes, it’s 2 or maybe 3, but the footprint is much larger than that, and just how do you differentiate between a Bren carrier and a truck? And all vehicles load at 6x; and that has to be taken into account.

So we finally get down to the ‘Support’ elements. Well, it seems the OOB folks tried their best to include everything. They broke the paradigm, and things didn’t ‘fit’ on ships or Atolls, so they just cut the ‘Support’ sizes so things would work with the AI. Therefore ‘Support’ is meaningless in the stock context. VehSup, EngVeh, Eng, or whatever, are just numbers that make the stock scenarios work with the AI.

We are working very carefully in Da Big Babes to make ‘everything’ fit within all the different paradigms. TO&Es are radically changed to compensate for radical changes in Support squad sizes, etc.. Think you will like it.

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 3
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 10:06:24 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I think of Motorised support as one big vehicle an elephant or 2 jeeps or 6 donkeys.

Just how i think of it take you pick how you want5 to interpret that

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RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 10:22:47 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I think of Motorised support as one big vehicle an elephant or 2 jeeps or 6 donkeys.

Just how i think of it take you pick how you want5 to interpret that


i see it for me: A elephant with Wheels on his feet. And a motor on his back.

but about support, there where units that use mules. Mayby because of this to add Animal Transport

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Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

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Post #: 5
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/28/2010 10:36:43 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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We made the decision not to mess about with support types early so it wont change now

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RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 12:23:22 AM   
Buck Beach

 

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From: Upland,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Buck, to you and Juan, the answer is both yes and no. You have to think in two contexts – irl and game. Actually you have to think in six different contexts.

The first (and second and third) is defining squads, guns, and stuff, in terms of their historical numbers. The next is redistributing all that in terms of the game system – relative AV values, relative load cost, relative sizes for Atoll deployment. So put a stake in the ground at a historical TO&E, and see what happens. Because of their specific organization, the Japanese have “significantly” more “squads” than anybody else, but under the combat algorithms this is disproportionate, so instead of 4 ‘squads’ of 13 per platoon, a better fit was 3 ‘squads’ of 17, which works much better in the relational AV portion of the combat algorithm, and gives the same number of “troops” for load and island population purposes.

The next is Guns. They are defined by ‘crew size’, but also by load footprint. Crew size is the measure of “troops” that the device will call for when loading, or populating an Atoll. Load footprint refers to the physical value of the LC – a 155mm gun can have a “crew” of 18 for “troop” purposes, but a LC of 18 puts it in the Hvy category for load, so it loads at 6 x 18 for load footprint.

And then there’s Vehicles. Now just what exactly is the ‘crew size’ (LC) of a Vehicle. Yes, it’s 2 or maybe 3, but the footprint is much larger than that, and just how do you differentiate between a Bren carrier and a truck? And all vehicles load at 6x; and that has to be taken into account.

So we finally get down to the ‘Support’ elements. Well, it seems the OOB folks tried their best to include everything. They broke the paradigm, and things didn’t ‘fit’ on ships or Atolls, so they just cut the ‘Support’ sizes so things would work with the AI. Therefore ‘Support’ is meaningless in the stock context. VehSup, EngVeh, Eng, or whatever, are just numbers that make the stock scenarios work with the AI.

We are working very carefully in Da Big Babes to make ‘everything’ fit within all the different paradigms. TO&Es are radically changed to compensate for radical changes in Support squad sizes, etc.. Think you will like it.




I am looking forward to it. In order to better understand (and in tweaking) I have been using the Alaska Defense Command and the intended North Pacific Naval Hdqtrs and the RL units assigned there and both the game's and historical TOEs and OOBs.

With much more micromanagement and superfluous attention than anybody should do, I am finding out interesting information that the normal game player need not be concerned with.

Aside from my most recent revelation that the Navy only had 3 bases under their command at the beginning, I have discovered (I think) where the Hdqtrs personnel and equipment of a Regt or Bn seem to be allocated to the sub units when split. Also, that some coastal defense guns and most smaller Engineer units are folded into other BF units to match historical distributions in the area. And finally that there were ARmy "Station Complement" units at many of the Forts and Bases that most likely are BF type units consisting of support.

While trying some reallocation to certain locations is driving me nuts, I am having fun.


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 7
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 7:56:07 PM   
JWE

 

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Ok, here’s some of the things we are looking at for Da Big Babes. Keep in mind, that all the boys and girls have to play in a multi-dimensional space. Gotta start somewhere, so I picked LC as the stake in the ground.

Any “squad”, loads 1x in Troop
Lt “equip”, <5 LC, loads 1x in Troop
Med “equip”, 5 to 8 LC, loads 2x in Cargo
Hy “equip”, >8 LC, loads 3x in Cargo
Any “Veh” or “AFV”, loads 3x in Cargo
“Equip” is any Army Weapon, Radar, AA Gun. “Squad” is any Squad or Engineer, but note, Eng Vehicle is a Vehicle.

As you know, you need 1 Sup device for each combat device. Just as an example, this gets weird when the combat devices are individual AAMGs – require way too much Sup in the aggregate. Da Babes consolidates these into AAMG ‘teams’, with 2 or more ‘guns’ per team. For firepower and LC values, we multiply the basic 1x numbers with the square root of the number of ‘guns’ per team. Multiplying by the sqrt FP reflects that not all guns can get into action. Multiplying by the sqrt LC allows further tweaking.

In stock, if a unit had 30 x 0.50in M2HB AAMGs, it would have a LC of 60 (30x2). It requires 30 Sup, which has LC of 240 (30x8), for LC (and troop count) of 300 total, representing 60 devices. If you ‘team’ them into pairs, unit would have a LC of 45 (15x3) and require only 15 Sup which may now be increased in size to 12, giving a LC of 180 (15x12), for a total LC (and troop count) of 225 representing 30 devices. It is very hard to determine ‘team’ size for these smaller weapons, because of the “equip” break point at LC=5. The difference between troop LC and cargo LC is subtle, but very real.

This also has an impact on the ‘types’ of things that get whacked in the hit/kill algorithm. Obviously, the more of a ‘device’ you have, the more often it gets selected. If you have a disproportionate number of Sup squads, based on the number of supporting weapon devices, guess what gets whacked the hardest. 500 Sup squads vs 308 Inf squads will put 5/8 of casualties in the non-combat units, and 3/8 in the infantry. Anything that reduces the relative proportions is a good thing.

Going up to division scale, Da Big Babes applies this philosophy to everything – US, Japan, Commonwealth, Dutch – requiring a four way recursive, that results in a more representative LC (squad/crew size) for the individual devices and the proportionality between them.

As to Sup v MotSup, this is nothing more than a means to differentiate loadability. Sup and MotSup do the same thing, but MotSup loads harder. That’s the only difference. Back in the dawn of time, we did a proportionality analysis for all the combatants. Da Big Babes returns to that proportionality conclusion.

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 8
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 8:17:43 PM   
witpqs


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Are 'Don's Babies', 'Da Babies', and 'Da Big Babies' all synonyms?

You say support and motorized support do the same thing. So what's better about motorized support? Faster movement?

(in reply to JWE)
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RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 9:07:38 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Are 'Don's Babies', 'Da Babies', and 'Da Big Babies' all synonyms?

Yes, sort of. There's 2 versions; Da Babes Lite which is just the ships/classes, and is designed to work with the stock AI, so ya'll can get a taste for what we really want to do, at least in ship terms. Then there's Da Big Babes, which tweaks all the paradigms; TO&Es, OOBs, LCUs, Devices, Classes, Ships, and (dare I say it?) code. Now that we are working on Da Big Bad Babes, we tend to shorthand it into just Da Babes. Frankly, this is where we wanted this thing to go from the beginning, so Da Babes is gonna refer to the whole enchilada. Don Bowen is the eminence gris behind this whole thing so, yes, Da Babes is Don's Babies writ very large.
quote:

You say support and motorized support do the same thing. So what's better about motorized support? Faster movement?

Movement depends on the LCU 'type', not its component devices. If it is a Type 7 = Inf Unit, it will move at the Inf rates notwithstanding how many vehicles it has. If it is a Type 8 = Armor Unit, it will move at the Motor rates notwithstanding how many devices it has that are coolies. The "potential" mobility of an internal device has nothing to do with the mobility of an LCU.

There is nothing "better" about MotSup, except that it allows a considerably more rational differentiation of load costs between and among the combatants.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 10
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 9:54:05 PM   
witpqs


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Thanks, but your reply raises a concern. Do I have to start calling Don "Your Eminence"? That could go to his head. I was thinking that mumbling "Your M&M's" might be better.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 11
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 1/29/2010 10:21:01 PM   
JWE

 

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Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Thanks, but your reply raises a concern. Do I have to start calling Don "Your Eminence"? That could go to his head. I was thinking that mumbling "Your M&M's" might be better.

Well, I have learned over the years that Don doesn't like ermine robes; they are hot and usually have bugs. And the red cardinal hat doesn't go with his complexion. But I have it on fair authority, that he is smilin and dialin down there in that Texas retirement home for the wicked, so perhaps we should address him as "Your Protruberance".

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12
RE: Understanding TOE device data - 2/10/2010 6:27:46 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3507
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, here’s some of the things we are looking at for Da Big Babes. Keep in mind, that all the boys and girls have to play in a multi-dimensional space. Gotta start somewhere, so I picked LC as the stake in the ground.

Any “squad”, loads 1x in Troop
Lt “equip”, <5 LC, loads 1x in Troop
Med “equip”, 5 to 8 LC, loads 2x in Cargo
Hy “equip”, >8 LC, loads 3x in Cargo
Any “Veh” or “AFV”, loads 3x in Cargo
“Equip” is any Army Weapon, Radar, AA Gun. “Squad” is any Squad or Engineer, but note, Eng Vehicle is a Vehicle.

As you know, you need 1 Sup device for each combat device. Just as an example, this gets weird when the combat devices are individual AAMGs – require way too much Sup in the aggregate. Da Babes consolidates these into AAMG ‘teams’, with 2 or more ‘guns’ per team. For firepower and LC values, we multiply the basic 1x numbers with the square root of the number of ‘guns’ per team. Multiplying by the sqrt FP reflects that not all guns can get into action. Multiplying by the sqrt LC allows further tweaking.

In stock, if a unit had 30 x 0.50in M2HB AAMGs, it would have a LC of 60 (30x2). It requires 30 Sup, which has LC of 240 (30x8), for LC (and troop count) of 300 total, representing 60 devices. If you ‘team’ them into pairs, unit would have a LC of 45 (15x3) and require only 15 Sup which may now be increased in size to 12, giving a LC of 180 (15x12), for a total LC (and troop count) of 225 representing 30 devices. It is very hard to determine ‘team’ size for these smaller weapons, because of the “equip” break point at LC=5. The difference between troop LC and cargo LC is subtle, but very real.

This also has an impact on the ‘types’ of things that get whacked in the hit/kill algorithm. Obviously, the more of a ‘device’ you have, the more often it gets selected. If you have a disproportionate number of Sup squads, based on the number of supporting weapon devices, guess what gets whacked the hardest. 500 Sup squads vs 308 Inf squads will put 5/8 of casualties in the non-combat units, and 3/8 in the infantry. Anything that reduces the relative proportions is a good thing.

Going up to division scale, Da Big Babes applies this philosophy to everything – US, Japan, Commonwealth, Dutch – requiring a four way recursive, that results in a more representative LC (squad/crew size) for the individual devices and the proportionality between them.

As to Sup v MotSup, this is nothing more than a means to differentiate loadability. Sup and MotSup do the same thing, but MotSup loads harder. That’s the only difference. Back in the dawn of time, we did a proportionality analysis for all the combatants. Da Big Babes returns to that proportionality conclusion.



First let me say I have no idea as far as some of the nuances of the inner workings of the game. I was just wondering about how things are coded into the LCU TO&E. We see squads and devices and the loading routines etc are based on that model. That said it is dissecting units in a way that is very disconnected to the RL model. AE is a strategic game and it seems odd to be looking at things under such a microscope as such.

For example, a US infantry BTN would be made up of three Rifle Co and a Weapons Co. Each Rifle Co had three infantry platoons plus a 0.30 MG and 3 60 mm Mortar. SO I guess the question is why do we see squads as the AE base unti where platoons or even companies would be a much better unit of measure? I understand that this is hard coded and likely a permanent part of the system but it just seems a strategic game would be much better to see an Inf Btn TO&E look something like: 9x Inf PLT, 3x 81 mm Mortar, 3 x 0.5 mg, plus support

Just wondering

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(in reply to JWE)
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