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Too aggresive Air Combat TF?

 
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Too aggresive Air Combat TF? - 1/18/2010 11:31:33 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline
Hi,

I just had the bad experience of losing Hornet in surface combat against incredible inferior Japanese forces. The Air Combat TF had reached it's position when several parts of a retreating Invasion Force stumbled onto it.

Nothing wrong with that but what strikes me as a bit odd is that the first Japanese TF is sighted via radar at 6000 yards while the Hornet itself wasn't discovered until they had closed to within 4000 yards. In the second engagement it's even worse. Radar sees the Japanese at 21000 yards while the optical sighting of the US TF takes place at 2000 yards.
I find it hard to believe that it is realistic that a non damaged CV TF would close in on enemy forces in the middle of the night if they could avoid it. Maybe it's a once-off event but it might be worth keeping an eye out for similar occurences.

After three engagements with only some damage to Hornet they finally met a lone destroyer that managed to put a torpedo into Hornet.

In the final phases of the turn I could see this message pass by: CV Hornet sinks....

Here's the complete combat report of the engagement:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 11, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Baker Island at 151,138, Range 4,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma
DD Harusame

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Shell hits 6
CA Northampton
CA Chester, Shell hits 1
CL Helena
CL Nashville
DD Meredith, Shell hits 1
DD Gwin
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD Worden



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 17% moonlight: 5,000 yards
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 4,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 4,000 yards
Murayama, Seiroku crosses the 'T'
DD Harusame engages DD Meredith at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CV Hornet at 2,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Grayson at 2,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Meredith at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CV Hornet at 4,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Meredith at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CV Hornet at 6,000 yards
CA Chester engages CL Abukuma at 6,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA Northampton at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CV Hornet at 9,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages CA Chester at 9,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Grayson at 9,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Baker Island at 151,138, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CM Tsugaru, Shell hits 1
AMc Fumi Maru #2
AMc Seki Maru #3, Shell hits 1
PB Kyo Maru #8, Shell hits 2
PB Kyo Maru #10, Shell hits 1
PB Shoei Maru, Shell hits 1
PB Shotoku Maru
PB Sonan Maru #5
PB Sonan Maru #6
TK Moji Maru
xAK Matsue Maru, on fire
xAK Venice Maru

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CA Northampton
CA Chester
CL Helena
CL Nashville
DD Meredith
DD Gwin
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD Worden

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 17% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range increases to 18,000 yards...
Range increases to 19,000 yards...
Range increases to 20,000 yards...
Range increases to 21,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 21,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range increases to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
Range increases to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range increases to 15,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range increases to 4,000 yards...
Range increases to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range increases to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Both TF attempt to withdraw!
Range increases to 8,000 yards...
PB Kyo Maru #10 engages CV Hornet at 8,000 yards
PB Sonan Maru #5 engages CV Hornet at 8,000 yards
PB Shotoku Maru engages CV Hornet at 8,000 yards
PB Shoei Maru engages CV Hornet at 8,000 yards
DD Worden engages PB Kyo Maru #8 at 8,000 yards
DD Grayson engages CM Tsugaru at 8,000 yards
DD Gwin engages AMc Seki Maru #3 at 8,000 yards
DD Meredith engages CM Tsugaru at 8,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Baker Island at 151,138, Range 26,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Ariake
TB Kiji
xAP Baikal Maru

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CA Northampton
CA Chester
CL Helena
CL Nashville
DD Meredith
DD Gwin
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD Worden



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 17% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range increases to 26,000 yards...
Both Task Forces evade combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Baker Island at 151,138, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Nagatsuki, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Northampton
CA Chester
CL Helena
CL Nashville
DD Meredith
DD Gwin
DD Grayson
DD Monssen
DD Worden



Reduced sighting due to 17% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 17% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 6,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 6,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 5,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 2,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 2,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 2,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CV Hornet at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
CV Hornet screened from combat
- escorted by DD Worden , DD Monssen , DD Grayson ,
DD Gwin , DD Meredith
CA Chester engages DD Nagatsuki at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
CV Hornet screened from combat
- escorted by DD Worden , DD Monssen , DD Grayson ,
DD Gwin , DD Meredith
CA Chester engages DD Nagatsuki at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
CV Hornet screened from combat
- escorted by DD Worden , DD Monssen , DD Grayson ,
DD Gwin , DD Meredith
CA Chester engages DD Nagatsuki at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CV Hornet screened from combat
- escorted by DD Worden , DD Monssen , DD Grayson ,
DD Gwin , DD Meredith
CA Chester engages DD Nagatsuki at 9,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

/BPRE
Post #: 1
RE: Too aggresive Air Combat TF? - 1/18/2010 11:51:07 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
The scope and range of results are quite feasible IMHO. Naval battles were quite chaotic historically and add to it that poor visibility, early war communications and all the things that "could have happened". Having two armed warships blunder into a larger force doesn't always end well with numerical superiority arguments. I've seen results less dramatic and results even more dramatic than this battle report states.

Basically, to me, it seems to be within reason even if the results were a disaster to the Allies in this case.

PS. Early war Radar reports were still routinely and notoriously ignored due to the limitations of the technology and lack of experience and reliability.

< Message edited by vonTirpitz -- 1/18/2010 11:52:36 PM >

(in reply to BPRE)
Post #: 2
RE: Too aggresive Air Combat TF? - 1/19/2010 10:15:37 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline

Probably true. You might be trusting the game engine with too much intelligence though when you expet it to behave differently later on during the war. Maybe it does. At least I have no idea yet but we'll see.

I would expect a basic reaction of a carrier TF to be to avoid all enemy surface TFs it sights though.

The outcome certainly adds a bit more to the game (since it's against the AI). Putting a hex in between yourself and the expected enemy doesn't seem to be a bad idea either.

/BPRE

(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 3
RE: Too aggresive Air Combat TF? - 1/20/2010 12:29:16 AM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
I fully understand what you are saying there but it isn't the game engine intelligence that I put my trust into, it is the imagination that the roll of a random die adds to the experience for me. Not to try and impune your case but, for me, a lot of the enjoyment of the game is found in the "extreme" variation from expectation. Just reading historical excerpts from various sources can at least convey some of what our imagination can add to the game engine results....


"Turner mistakenly believed that the Slot was under Allied observation throughout the day". - Frank, Guadalcanal, pp. 89–92.

"Turner, however, believed that Fletcher understood that he was to provide air cover until all the transports were unloaded on August 9" - Lundstrom, Black Shoe Carrier Admiral, p. 368–385.

"Bode, awakened from sleep in his cabin, decided not to place his ship in the lead of the southern group of ships, the customary place for the senior ship, and went back to sleep" - Frank, Guadalcanal, pp. 96-97.

"Vincennes hesitated to open fire, believing that the searchlight's source might be friendly ships" - Loxton, Shame of Savo, pp. 225–228.

"When I reached the bridge level, I found it a shambles of dead bodies with only three or four people still standing. In the Pilot House itself the only person standing was the signalman at the wheel who was vainly endeavoring to check the ship's swing to starboard to bring her to port. On questioning him I found out that the Captain, who at that time was laying [sic] near the wheel, had instructed him to beach the ship and he was trying to head for Savo Island, distant some four miles (6 km) on the port quarter. I stepped to the port side of the Pilot House, and looked out to find the island and noted that the ship was heeling rapidly to port, sinking by the bow. At that instant the Captain straightened up and fell back, apparently dead, without having uttered any sound other than a moan." - Frank, Guadalcanal, pp. 111–113.




(in reply to BPRE)
Post #: 4
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