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Ecco.... - 6/30/2002 10:11:26 AM   
Megrez

 

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to Iceman

I'm saying this:
if you're inside an f18 and you want to fire a sidewinder to your ugly-bad-iraqi enemy, you have to push a button on the control stick :)
You could be the best pilot of the entire U.S. Air Force, with a great ability in combat and with an high precision in firing sidewinders, but if you don't press that button you cannot fire the missile :)
In the same way I don't think a jock could "activate" a weapon only 'cause he/she has got the ability related to that weapon; he/she is inside a cockpit and probably he/she activates weapons using some controls inside the cockpit.
So the abilities related to the different kind of weapons determine jock's firing-precision, but the action of "FIRING" the weapons is a much more complex issue.
One of your arguments against my idea is that an infected titan could not fire its weapons 'cause the jock of the attacker titan cannot control its weapons.
And you affirm this thing 'cause you say that those weapons are controlled by weapons' abilities of the jock inside the infected titan.
So I'm continuing to think that you probably didn't catch well my idea.
The weapons installed on a titan are controlled by the jock who "activates" them ("the one who pushes the button").
In particular, on medium, heavy and assault titans, the controls are part manual and part neural ('cause of the neural bridge device).
If a titan is infected by nanos, it's the jock of the attacker titan who can control the infected one in some cases.
So he/she can "push the button" instead of the jock of the infected titan, using his/her own abilities to fire the weapons.
I'm not saying that the neural-sense is a weapons' ability; I'm saying that weapons' abilities determine the firing-precision with the different kind of weapons, but they have nothing to do with the "activation" of the weapons, which is certainly due to some kind of controls.
This is my point of wiew, and maybe it's wrong, but I have some doubts about yours.
About the EMP:
I'm not saying that the new weapon will surely unbalance the races. I hope it won't.
But I think that the concept of that weapon has got more consequences than the ones you discussed about on this forum.

Meg

P.S.: I usually play with realistic flight-simulators or with RPG-games. I tried to play with Mech Warrior sometimes ago, but I didn't like it. I prefer Mech Commander gold.
Post #: 1
- 6/30/2002 6:00:42 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Thank you for making my point, but I don't need the help. My point was precisely that, weapons are fired with a STICK, not the neural bridge. The jock's ability with the STICK depends on his abilities (des/rea), not any thought he might have. What is it with you and "control" weapons?!
Have you grasped the essence of the battle computer yet?

About the EMP, what has been discussed here was merely "guessing", including by you. You don't know how it works. Period. How do you know if the consequences have been fully thought out or not? You have a problem man.

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....... - 7/1/2002 4:19:49 AM   
Megrez

 

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Mmm... I don't agree with you.
Small titans (recon and light) are piloted through manual controls (dexterity / reaction).
But big titans (medium, heavy and assault) are piloted mainly through the neural bridge device, as it's written in the manual:

[QUOTE]Medium, heavy, and assault titans are controlled with the help of a neural bridge, connecting the jock with
its machine. Each character has a personal sensibility towards this device, called neural
sense. Therefore, neural sense and dexterity are the primary/secondary attributes for
piloting medium & heavy titans.[/QUOTE]

So probably, in a small titan (recon and light), the weapons are activated by the pilot "pressing the button" on the stick.
But in a big titan they're activated by neural impulses. I think to something like that old movie called "Firefox" (with Clint Eastwood), in which there was a combat-jet with a neural device able to activate weapons if receiving neural impulses by the pilot.
You could say that also in a big titan weapons are activated manually, but it's not written anywhere (or at least I didn't notice it).
It's true that also a big titan has got manual controls, but I don't know precisely the purpose of these manual controls (I tried to find out, but it's not written).
My opinion is that they are emergency-controls, in case the neural device breacks down.
But I'm not sure, and I accept comments about this.
Anyway, talking about the concept of NWM vector, it's quite clear that, if the neural bridge device is infected, it's possible to activate also the weapons.
When I used the words "push the button" related to big titans I put them between inverted commas, 'cause I was using those words figuratively as a synonym of "activate the weapons".
So when you say that on a big titans weapons are activated manually I don't much agree with you.
You told me:

[QUOTE]Hey Megrez, you sure like to quote, but you only quote the parts that interest you.[/QUOTE]

To say the truth I'm thinking the same about you :p Sorry.

About the battle computer I believe to the thing Eric told me:

[QUOTE]You can lock target without having a battle computer. The main purpose of the Battle Computer is to increase a jocks chance to hit the target.[/QUOTE]

What else should I grasp?

[QUOTE]About the EMP, what has been discussed here was merely "guessing", including by you. You don't know how it works. Period. How do you know if the consequences have been fully thought out or not? [COLOR=orange]You have a problem man[/COLOR].[/QUOTE]


In fact I didn't say that the new weapon will surely create problems with races: I said that I hope it won't.
My criticism wasn't directed to VB (which developed the new weapon), but to the discussion about the EMP pulser in the forum; It seems to me not very thorough.

And about the fact that I have a problem.... well... I prefer not to take notice about your cutting remark... I try always to be polite and It's not my style to be offensive with people.

Megrez

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Post #: 3
- 7/1/2002 8:59:53 AM   
rosary

 

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I guess I should mention that the EMP has a chance to do light damage vs. systems. I do not think it affects pilots regardless of race. I realize there is an argument that this device could possibly damage an android or cyborg pilot but it doesn't. I prefer to listen to arguments about why something like this wouldn't affect these races. For one thing, I hate instant kill weapons. They screw up the gameplay.

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- 7/1/2002 9:05:41 AM   
rosary

 

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I probably shouldn't have used the word Argument before. Let's change it to discussion. I prefer that too. But to start it off.

Emp has a small chance to do light system damage.
The Titan is insulated against these types of attacks though not perfectly. So when the EMP is successful it can sustain light system damage.

The life support system is also insulated against these types of attacks providing protection to the pilot so even a successful attack with the EMP would be very light.

A cyborg or Android pilot is even further insulated against this type of effect. So any EMP effect would be negligible.

That's how I see it.

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- 7/1/2002 5:12:26 PM   
Korgmeister

 

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I always feel like there's some great library of ToS canon that I am ignorant of, but here goes:

One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.

Anything further I have to say will probably be muddied by the fact that I don't quite know what you're discussing. But wether this Nano thing effects the manual controls or the neural bridge, hitting a bad guy at a distance involves more than pushing a **** button!

It's an intricate thing that invovles many different actions, processes and variables, and interfering with just one will screw it up.

Geh: Realism monkeys...now I'm remembering why I play White Wolf games.

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- 7/1/2002 5:37:22 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Oh, I like the way you use the word probably. Tell me, why do you base your argument on movies unrelated to BattleTech (where ToS gets origins), and not on the BattleTech universe?
Doesn't it strike to you as logical that if a weapon skill's primary attribute is dextrerity or reaction that that weapon is fired manually? How do you make the *giant* leap to it being fired by the neural link?! It doesn't say anywhere? It doesn't need to. Emergency controls? Ya, keep squirming.
Quotes: I don't need to quote from the manual, when I do it it's just to complement whatever you "forget" in your own quotes.
Battle Computer: if you really have grasped, then why do you keep making these silly assumptions?
EMP: how thorough can a discussion be if it's about something people don't know how it works? You can discuss all you want about its possible effects, but I guess you'll be doing it alone.

And I'm terminating my participation in the discussion with you right here, someone else should take the job of enlightening you - if anyone is interested that is.

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Post #: 7
- 7/1/2002 5:49:48 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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Actually Korgmeister, that's precisely what the battle computer does. Factor target's speed and heading, your own speed and movement, wind direction and strength, gravitational effects, intervening terrain, ... It'll tell you *exactly* when to press that button on the STICK so you have the highest probablility of scoring a hit - crosshairs changing color, pulsating gold, or whatever, depending on what "canon" material you use as reference, be it the BT novels, the MW computer game, the MW RPG, whatever.
Hence the 25% penalty to hit when you have no battle computer, you have to do all calculations by hand.

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Post #: 8
- 7/1/2002 6:05:01 PM   
rosary

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thorgrim
[B]Actually Korgmeister, that's precisely what the battle computer does. Factor target's speed and heading, your own speed and movement, wind direction and strength, gravitational effects, intervening terrain, ... It'll tell you *exactly* when to press that button on the STICK so you have the highest probablility of scoring a hit - crosshairs changing color, pulsating gold, or whatever, depending on what "canon" material you use as reference, be it the BT novels, the MW computer game, the MW RPG, whatever.
Hence the 25% penalty to hit when you have no battle computer, you have to do all calculations by hand. [/B][/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Though I suspect that the higher end battle computers may actually fire without a lot of assistance. But that's just behind the scenes mythology if you know what I mean. Not actual gameplay stats.

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Post #: 9
- 7/1/2002 9:17:50 PM   
Korgmeister

 

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In that case, I'm guessing the skill must be INT based because the pilot needs to be pretty handy with the battle computer.

Also, when it said 'guided' I never saw wether it meant wire guided, radio guided, or F&F missiles. There's obviously a big difference, and in the former two, a fair amount of smarts on ballistics are needed to make the missiles go boom in the right place.

Even with the Battle Computer nursemaiding you thorough it, you still need to have an effective practical knowledge of ballistics (as well as pain old good timing) to know when to fire them correctly.

I think it's INT/INS because you don't just need to press the button when the crosshairs 'go gold'. You need to anticipate that happening.

Mind you, I find this is based off that contraversial NWM argument...if so, I think I'll butt out. That discussion is far more trouble than it's worth.

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Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light

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Post #: 10
- 7/2/2002 1:06:15 AM   
rosary

 

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There are 2 types of guided missiles. Heat and Energy respectively. They have varying ranges and damage.

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Post #: 11
- 7/3/2002 5:07:36 AM   
PrinceCorrin

 

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There are several types of real life guidance systems.
There's the most common, which is radar (locks onto a target by radar and follows it's own bounced signal) Chaff is, and has always been, the most effective way of confusing the radar signal.
Heat, like the Sidewinder (follows the heat signature left by the target) Some flares can distract these types, though the Sidewinder is actually too smart for most of the flares used today.
and my favorite: TV, which locks onto the target visually, and is the most difficult to fool, since chaff and flares are ineffective.
I thought all the GMs in ToS where heat seeking.

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Post #: 12
- 7/3/2002 5:23:06 AM   
rosary

 

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I was referring the the energy guided missiles in Warring Suns. These are closer range guided missiles that do high damage.

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Post #: 13
:D - 7/3/2002 6:13:57 PM   
firestorm

 

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yipeeeee!!!!
i've been hoping there'd be another way to use the guided missiles skill eventually.

anyways, on the subject of the stupid NWM vector or whatever it's called (it's 4:15 AM and im lazy): the manual quote says the big titans are "...controlled with the help of a neural link..." I take that to mean that moving the actual titan around is helped by the link. (this is supported by the Neural Sense being needed for the piloting skills) figuring out where for the jock to shoot might be done via the battle computer, but a) the battle comp doesn't tell the guns when to shoot. it just tells the jock where to shoot. b) i doubt the guns are gonna go off unless the button/trigger/switch/insert-activation-method-of-choice is hit. c) once the button is hit, a signal is sent stright to the desired wepon, telling it to shoot.

now, due to the lateness of the time, and my not being out of high school yet, some of that may be incorrect.
therefore, i believe i shall go to bed and get one day nearer to not being in high school any more.

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Post #: 14
- 7/3/2002 10:30:40 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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I hear those bombs are falling on weddings nowadays. Maybe they could use a better guidance system, like a brain in the pilot's head?

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Post #: 15
- 7/3/2002 11:53:29 PM   
PrinceCorrin

 

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Bombs? What bombs? I was talking about missiles. Bombs are altogether different.
Ambiguity will get you nowhere.

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Post #: 16
- 7/4/2002 12:20:24 AM   
rosary

 

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Weapons shouldn't be used at weddings to celebrate. It is just absolutely stupid to shoot bullets into the air. They come down at the same velocity. Who knows who is going to get hit?

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Post #: 17
- 7/4/2002 1:17:32 AM   
Thorgrim

 

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Shame you didn't get it. Eric did.
Weapons shouldn't be used period. But if they are anyway, a wedding seems as much a good reason as any other. At least they're not fired at someone else, even for "self-defense" purposes...

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Post #: 18
- 7/4/2002 3:06:43 AM   
LarkinVB

 

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If falling bombs can make happy something is going seriously wrong. Sometimes its a sad sad world we do live in.

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Post #: 19
- 7/4/2002 7:19:28 AM   
PrinceCorrin

 

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Sad indeed. But I work to protect my home. My home being safe makes me happy.

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Post #: 20
- 7/4/2002 8:12:45 PM   
Korgmeister

 

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[URL=http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22067]I think I have your answer to that, Thogrim[/URL]

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Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light

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Post #: 21
- 7/5/2002 3:12:24 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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*Everybody* works to protect their homes, they just do it in different ways. And the concept of "protecting home" might be regarded as something else by those who are the targets of said "protection".

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Post #: 22
- 7/5/2002 8:26:51 PM   
rosary

 

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The reasons given by the U.S. media for the bombing of the wedding was that some people in the wedding were shooting their weapons in the air. [which I thought was stupid regardless]. By firing their weapons in the air they became a target and were subsequently bombed.

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Post #: 23
- 7/5/2002 8:34:06 PM   
Thorgrim

 

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They were in *their* country, celebrating *their* wedding, according to *their* ways. Not knowing a people's ways is not an excuse, just like not knowing the letter of the law isn't when you break it.

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Post #: 24
- 7/6/2002 12:14:56 AM   
rosary

 

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I'm just informing those not in the U.S. what we are being told. I'm not saying that I believe the media.

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Post #: 25
Bombed wedding - 7/6/2002 8:00:31 PM   
Megrez

 

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About this problem I think we should divide it into two different and distinct parts.

1) It's to be hoped that, if it's necessary to bomb, the bombing has to be more precise, to avoid to strike innocent civilians.
2) About the fact that in Afghanistan is a tradition to shoot the weapons in the air for a wedding.... well it's not really a tradition. In Afghanistan the massive diffusion of firearms started during second world war, and it achieved its peak during the war against russian invasion.
So the use of weapons during weddings is something quite recent in Afghanistan.
Moreover I think that everyone could express his point of wiew about traditions, also deploring them when they are idiot (for example like the african forced female infibulation).
If someone does something wrong to follow a tradition he's not justified.
And I think that to shot in air with guns or machine-guns during a wedding is "very" idiot also if it is a way to express joy.
Affirming this I don't want to justify the error that was incontrovertibly made by the people who bombed during the wedding.

Megrez

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Post #: 26
Reply to Rosary - 7/6/2002 8:08:28 PM   
Megrez

 

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[QUOTE]I guess I should mention that the EMP has a chance to do light damage vs. systems. I do not think it affects pilots regardless of race. I realize there is an argument that this device could possibly damage an android or cyborg pilot but it doesn't. I prefer to listen to arguments about why something like this wouldn't affect these races. For one thing, I hate instant kill weapons. They screw up the gameplay.[/QUOTE]

This is my idea:
The cockpit is insulated with a special anti-electromagnetic composite made with graphite.
This composite is too much expensive, and it's not useful to cover the entire titan with it, also because to do that you should reduce the thickness of the armour which is more useful to protect the titan from the other kinds of weapons.
So, with only the cockpit insulated, the joks are immune to the EMP pulser (also if they're cyborgs or androids), but the titan is not.
That special insulation doesn't work with neutron blaster 'cause that weapon is designed specially with the purpose to "pierce" it, and it doesn't work also with the radiations due to engines' explosions ('cause they're too much powerful).

Megrez

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Post #: 27
NWM vector (my reply to Korgmeister and to someone else... - 7/6/2002 8:39:21 PM   
Megrez

 

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In this week I tried to reflect upon my idea: I wanted to understand what is so wrong with it.
And I figured out 2 principal reasons... but they don't deals with the validity of nanotechnology, or with presumed distortions to the gameplay...
I will try to explain them... but, before that, I have to reject some inaccuracies that someone blamed me for.

[QUOTE]One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.[/QUOTE]

That's true... never said anything against that :)
In this post I wasn't talkin' about locking a target and pointing the weapons.
I was talking about the possibility to activate a weapon through a command sent by radio-link to an infected neural-bridge device.
Iceman was sayin' that it's not possible. On the contrary I affirm that, theoretically, it's possible to do that.
In the other post (Sorry for the delay) I explained how my weapon should work, and something that concerns locking the target and pointing the weapons.
But probably it's better if I summarize another time those concepts.

[COLOR=teal]So this is my idea about NWM vector (NWM = NanoWare Machines).[/COLOR]
The NWM vector is a very big missile. It hasn't got an explosive warhead, but it makes a "light" damage when it impacts the target.
It should be 4 or 5 damage-points.
This missile transports the nanos (nanomachines.... small robots built with nanotechnology): so, I was thinking about a "cruise"-class (or "tomahawk"-class) missile.
I think that SRM, LRM, NM and also GM are smaller than this type of missile (I think to them as "maverick"-class or "hellfire"-class missiles); but they have an explosive war-head so they make some points of damage.
A "cruise"-class missile filled with an explosive war-head would produce an higher damage (like an autocannon 20 I think).
But the NWM-vector hasn't got a warhead. So it cannot produces such an high damage. But it's a big missile and when it impacts its target it produces a sort of light damage (I thought like a punch of a light or medium titan).
Maybe it's not a "light" damage if you compare it to the damages produced by other types of missiles in ToS, but you have to admit that a "cruise"-class missile with an explosive war-head should make more than 4-5 points of damage.
When the NW-missile strikes the target, it releases a multitude of nanos on it.
Apart the sudden damage (4 or 5 damage-points), the nanos penetrate inside the hit titan and attack its electronic systems.
Mostly the neural device, and the battle computer.
To be more understandable from this moment I will call the attacker-titan as TITAN A and the the hit-titan as TITAN B.
The NWM vector's damaging effects could be divided into a sequence of 3 levels:
1) first level: the immediate impact damage (4 or 5 points of damage). [COLOR=royalblue][I already explained my idea about that][/COLOR]
2) second level: after 50/60 game seconds, if the TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan, it could be immobilized if its jock doesn't pass a skill check.
[COLOR=royalblue][If TITAN B is a major titan (medium, heavy or assault) it has got a neural bridge device, and probably also a battle-computer. The nanos attack this devices in two ways: 1) in a mechanic-way, damaging "physically" these devices 2) installing virus-softwares on these systems; viruses which deny or stop the neural connection between the TITAN B and its jock.
So, after a certain period of time from the moment in which the TITAN B is hit, the jock of TITAN B is forced to do a skill check: if he/she doesn't pass the skill check all these systems will be infected by nanos; I proposed that the period of time should be very long (for example 50/60 game-seconds), but I accept other suggestions.][/COLOR]
3) third level: after another 20/30 game seconds, if TITAN A is a major titan (medium, heavy, or assault) and its jock has got an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%) and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), and if the TITAN B is a major titan too, previously immobilized by the "infection" of nanos, the jock inside TITAN A could gain the control of TITAN B if he/she passes a skill check.
[COLOR=royalblue][After TITAN B is infected by nanos, these machines exploit and modify the internal systems of TITAN B (neural bridge device and battle computer) to establish a radio-link with the TITAN A. When this link is active, they substitute the cerebral impulses of TITAN B's jock with the impulses of TITAN A's jock inside the neural-bridge device.
I mean that they make like a radio-link between the TITAN A and TITAN B: while this link is active, the TITAN A's jock controls TITAN B instead of its jock, but only if all the requirements I told before are ok. I proposed an interval of 20/30 game-seconds from the moment the TITAN B is immobilized, but I accept suggestions about this; then the TITAN A's jock will be prompted to a skill check, and, if he/she will pass it, when it will be the turn of TITAN B to attack or to move, that jock will control TITAN B instead of its pilot.][/COLOR]

So there are 4 possible situations:
a) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan too: in this case the NW-missile produces only a damage of first level (and maybe also a decrease of probability to hit the locked target for TITAN B, 'cause nanos affect the battle-computer, if there's one inside the titan).
b) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of first level, and eventually also a damage of second level.
c) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of first level (and maybe also a decrease of probability to hit the locked target for TITAN B, 'cause nanos affect the battle-computer, if there's one inside the titan).
d) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile may produce a damage of first level and of second level, and eventually also of third level.

In the case of a damage of third level, TITAN B will be temporary a member of TITAN A's team.
It's TITAN A's jock the one who controls TITAN B; so no jocks are mind-controlled. TITAN B's jock is still inside TITAN B's cockpit but his/her titan is controlled by someone else.
TITAN A's jock will be able to command movements of TITAN B, and also to lock targets and to point weapons against them. And he/she will be able to activate them. He can do all these these things sending his/her cerebral impulses through the radio link established with the infected neural device.
It's logical that TITAN A's jock probably has got different attributes and abilities from the "owner" of TITAN B, so he/she won't be able to pilot well that model and to use its weapons properly.
Moreover I think it should be added a decreasing-modifier to the probability to hit a titan locked by an infected TITAN B, 'cause TITAN A's jock is piloting TITAN B through radio-link which isn't a very good way to pilot a robot.

So, about the things Korgmeister said:

[QUOTE]One thing that people have neglected to mention in their 'F-18' example is that they've left out the hard part: Getting a lock on the enemy in the first place.

To get a lock on the enemy, you have to be able to calculate and anticipate their movements on the fly, also taking into account hot spots and other variables such as wind etc.

That's why the guided weapons skill is INT/INS based.[/QUOTE]

I can say that my weapon's idea is well balanced.
It won't be simple to use weapons of TITAN B; anyway I think that TITAN A's jock should be able to control in a certain way also TITAN B's weapons.
[COLOR=teal]Someone says that it should be impossible for TITAN A's jock to activate TITAN B's weapons, 'cause they say that, on major titans (medium, heavy, assault), the weapons are still activated by manual controls.[/COLOR]

As Iceman says:

[QUOTE]Doesn't it strike to you as logical that if a weapon skill's primary attribute is dextrerity or reaction that that weapon is fired manually?[/QUOTE]

On the contrary I think those attributes are related to the pointing of weapons (and so with the probability to hit the locked enemy), not to the "activation" of weapons. And when TITAN B is infected, it's the jock of TITAN A that points the weapons with his/her abilities.

[QUOTE]How do you make the *giant* leap to it being fired by the neural link?! It doesn't say anywhere? It doesn't need to.[/QUOTE]

That's not true... if it's possible to control movements through the neural bridge (which is a difficoult thing, 'cause it implies a series of complicated commands), why should it be impossible to activate a weapon (which is an easier thing... it's only like a switch with two positions: on and off)?
[COLOR=royalblue]Moreover, activating a weapon through the neural bridge device would reduce the lag between the moment the jock "thinks to fire" and the moment the jock "press the fire-button", helping him/her to be "the-first-who-shoots".[/COLOR]
[About the movie "Firefox", this was one of the reasons why the jet's weapons were controlled by a neural device]

I explained my reasons in other posts but Iceman continues to say that weapons are fired manually.
But also this thing is not written anywhere (or at least I didn't notice it).
It's true that also a big titan has got manual controls, but, as I said before, I don't know precisely the purpose of these manual controls (I tried to find out on the manual, but it's not written).

Firestorm said:

[QUOTE]the manual quote says the big titans are "...controlled with the help of a neural link..." I take that to mean that moving the actual titan around is helped by the link. (this is supported by the Neural Sense being needed for the piloting skills)
figuring out where for the jock to shoot might be done via the battle computer, but a) the battle comp doesn't tell the guns when to shoot. it just tells the jock where to shoot. b) i doubt the guns are gonna go off unless the button/trigger/switch/insert-activation-method-of-choice is hit. c) once the button is hit, a signal is sent stright to the desired wepon, telling it to shoot.[/QUOTE]

But, about the [COLOR=teal]medium, heavy and assault piloting skill[/COLOR], I noticed also that the manual says:

[COLOR=royalblue]This skill is needed to pilot medium or heavy titans (up to 140t). These titans are piloted
by neural bridges, therefore neural sense and dexterity are the primary and secondary attributes[/COLOR]

[U]So neural sense is the primary attribute to pilot a major titan: it means that a major titan (medium, heavy and assault) is piloted mainly through the neural bridge device.[/U]

And, as I said in my previous post, my opinion is that there are some manual controls but they are [U]emergency-controls[/U], in case the neural device breacks down.

About the quote Firestorm made:

[QUOTE]controlled with the help of a neural bridge[/QUOTE]

it can be intended in two ways: one is the way that Firestorm said, and the other one (mine) is that without "the help" of the neural bridge a jock is not able to pilot a major titan.
And I think my opinion is more close-fitting to the manual.

Also if it's impossible to use the weapons there are other things that It's possible to do...
Example:
1) I can order to TITAN B to jump, and then I could leave it fluctuating in the sky until its jump-ports finish their charge. So the titan will collapse to the surface.
2) I can eject the enemy jock.
3) I can order to TITAN B the self-destruction (if the new version of ToS:WS will have this improvement).
4) I can order to TITAN B to swim in a pool of lava or acid or to run off a cliff, or to flee from the battle.
So, also without the use of TITAN B's weapons, NWMs are quite lethal.

There are also other things to be said:

- If the major titans has got emergency manual-controls, the TITAN B's jock can try to regain the control of his/her titan.
That jock is not dead (and he/she isn't mind-controlled), and he/she is still inside the cockpit (apart in the case he was ejected in a forced way).
I don't think that he/she is powerless in the face of his/her defeat.
Probably the jock will try to re-gain the controls of his/her titan before it's too late, using the manual controls to bypass the battle-computer and the neural-bridge device (depending from his/her abilities and attributes).
Moreover if the battle-computer is very good (I mean a top quality computer) it will have some internal defenses like firewalls or antivirus (maybe also specific anti-nanos defenses).
Apart that, the radio link between TITAN A and TITAN B could be obstructed by natural obstacles: if you're controlling another titan with NWMs, and somebody attacks your titan forcing you to escape, the connection between your titan and the infected one could be interrupted if you move behind a mountain or a big hill.
Due to these reasons I think that the jock of the infected titan should be allowed to try to re-gain the controls.
So I proposed a periodical skill-check (every 50-60 seconds of game-time).
Maybe my proposal it's much simplistic, but, as I already said, we can discuss about this if you have other ideas.

- Maybe also the radio link could be stopped if TITAN B is hit by an EMP pulser, or if it is invested by radiation of an engine's explosion (which could disturb the communications).

- In case TITAN B's jock passes the first skill check, he/she will avoid that TITAN B get "frozen" and he/she will keep the controls of his/her titan.
But at every 50/60 game-seconds, he/she has got to do another time the skill check ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- If TITAN B is paralyzed, TITAN A's jock has got to pass a skill check after another 20/30 game-seconds to gain the control of TITAN B: if he/she doesn't pass that skill check, he/she will be prompted again at every 20/30 game-seconds ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- When TITAN B's jock passes the skill check to re-gain the control of his/her titan, it will also finish the paralisys. But after another 50/60 game-seconds he/she will be prompted again for a skill check to avoid the paralisys of TITAN B ('cause the NWMs are still resident on the TITAN B).

- It is possible to remove the NWM only when the battle is finished, at the factory: this means a surplus of expenses for the repairing of TITAN B. Maybe we should also consider NWMs disactivated if TITAN B is hit by an EMP pulser after he was infected.

- If TITAN B is hit for 2 or 3 times with the same weapon by the same titan, I think that it should be reduced the probability of TITAN B's jock to pass the skill check (or maybe it should be reduced the time before the TITAN B's jock is prompted for the skill check).

- If TITAN B is hit many times with NWM vector by different titans, the only effect of nanos is to paralize TITAN B, 'cause happens a conflict between NWMs when they try to reach a radio-link with their respective "owners".

- If a jock is not mentally prepared to tolerate the splitting-neural-radio-link [as I told before, TITAN A's jock must have an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%), and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), 'cause it's difficoult to control a titan when you're already controlling another one], he won't be able to keep the control of the other titan for a long time (maybe also remaining mentally scrambled for a while, or also dying for the neural shock).
We could discuss about establishing other limits about abilities of TITAN A's jock... but basically I think these limits I proposed are enough to balance the use of this weapon.

- TITAN A's jock cannot sustain two (or more) links in the same time: accepting a new link he/she will stop the previous one.

- If I remember well, the maximum weight for a weapon in ToS is 12 tons (the autocannon 20): the NWM vector should have a bigger weight than this one.
And it should occupy 3 slots. The number of the ammos should be very low (I think 3) and the price should be very high. Considering all these parameters, you should notice that, for a titan, it's not a weapon easy to carry (you cannot install it everywhere... in small titans maybe only in the cetral torso): and it's not also a decisive weapon ('cause it has got a few ammos only).

- I intended this weapon to be used mainly by major titans.
In fact I proposed some parameters which make this weapon difficoult to be installed on a recon or light titan: anyway, as you said, it's still possible to install it on recon and light models.
But if you do that, the effect of the weapon is lowered.
Well then the NWM vector is a sophisticated weapon for sophisticated targets: the recon and light titans are quite "immune" from it; and they also cannot use it properly.

- Anyway, also if installed on a recon titan, it permits to achieve good results.
Try to imagine about a recon titan which has got the NWM vector and a close combat weapon (like a flamethrower), and to an assault titan full of powerfull weapons and with an heavy armour.
The recon will strike the assault with the NWM vector, and then it has to hold out against the assault until the NWMs freeze it (50/60 seconds of game-time). When the assault is "frozen", the recon starts to make called-shots to the assault's cockpit with the flamethrower, killing the enemy-jock: and it wins the battle.
So my weapon permits to a recon titan to beat and assault model if it is used properly: it doesn't seem to me this weapon is so useless.

- Someone said that I want to create a GOD-weapon, and someone else said it's over-balanced. I think that is a good balanced weapon. It has got powerful effects, but it has got also many flaws which balance its effects. Many of the weapons that users on this forum proposed are similar to weapon I saw in many other games; so nothing original to be added to the gameplay. On the contrary nanos are like an innovation.

Maybe my entire idea seems to much complex if it's red on this post.
But in the game it would be a very simple weapon to use.
You have just to fire it and then you watch the effects.
There should be some subroutines of the game that do all the hard work.
Maybe it's true that to program NWM vector it would take a lot of time, but I proposed it for the sequel of ToS:WS. And I think they would have all the time they need to develop the subroutines.
But the important point is that [U]I DON'T CARE IF SOMEONE WILL DEVELOPE THIS WEAPON, OR NOT[/U].
It wasn't my intention to force anyone to develope it.

When I wrote the post "Sorry for the delay" I noticed that this idea was scorned (like some other ones that I wrote down), and so I started to write replies only to show that it could be a valid idea.
'Cause basically (I repeat this) I don't like when someone says that my ideas are bad on principle.

The thread started to grow up and some peoples got bothered by my insistence.
But I got bothered too 'cause I was still being criticized on principle and I don't like that.
Lately I started to see some offensive sentences and words.
I tried to make clear that I don't like this kind of attitude.
But I continue to see it.
If I don't answer back it's only 'cause I'm polite.
But I could change my mind.....
And about these things Iceman said:

[QUOTE]EMP: how thorough can a discussion be if it's about something people don't know how it works? You can discuss all you want about its possible effects, but I guess you'll be doing it alone.[/QUOTE]

Well... So, when Mutt and You was discussing about EMP on the forum, was you doing it alone (or should I say "privately")? :)

[QUOTE]Tell me, why do you base your argument on movies unrelated to BattleTech (where ToS gets origins), and not on the BattleTech universe?[/QUOTE]

I don't base my arguments on movies; I base them on the manual. That one was an example to explain what I think. period.

Moreover, when the game will be sold, many peoples who don't know anything about BattleTech universe will start to play with it.
What will you do when they will start to post on this forum, saying things that you don't like? Will you say to them that they have to know BattleTech universe before talking about the game?
It's a little ridicolous idea.
I know BattleTech, but is really so important to know something about BattleTech universe to play with this game or to talk about it?
Be realistic.



Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 28
About the two reasons I was talking before..... - 7/6/2002 9:01:18 PM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline
Now... let's talk about those two reasons which are against my idea.

Number 1:
[COLOR=royalblue]CREDIBILITY OF NANOTECHNOLOGY?[/COLOR]

One of the things that I like much in this game is that there are many futuristic weapons (in ToS v1.4, and surely also in ToS:WS), for example:
- cold light gun
- tesla bolt
- black ray gun
- gauss cannon
etc... (never seen one of these weapons in action in real-life).
Moreover the titans are motorized with nuclear engines, and they can have an armour made of a fantastic metal-alloy called "vicenium".
All these things don't exist in this moment. Probably they will in the future, but they're not real in this moment.
The same thing for nanos... They don't exist now but they probably will in the future.
So... what is wrong with nanos?
If all the other things are accepted as possible, why is impossible to accept nanos?
I think this is all due to a certain thing that we can call [COLOR=orangered]"suspension of desbelief"[/COLOR].
It's a thing which is quite famous in comic-books :) For example: Why does nobody recognize Superman when he wears his glasses pretending to be a human?
Or why did Bruce Banner start to become Hulk after being exposed to gamma-ray, when all the peoples exposed to gamma ray die immediately or after a while with the cancer?
It's simple :) 'Cause when we read those stories we don't start to wonder about causes and consequences: we read those stories accepting all their premises in the way they are presented to us by the one who inveted them.
It's the same thing with games.
Maybe nanos will exists in the future, but, at the moment, they don't have any credibility in ToS, 'cause they are not in the game, and there isn't any other weapon similar to them.
When I wrote my ideas about nanos in the forum some people replied to say that they're sci-fi.....
Well..... for me also nuclear engines are sci-fi..... I don't notice the difference.
Maybe the difference is that in the game there are nuclear engines, and so they seem credible because of the suspension of desbelief.
Nanos aren't inside the game so they're not credible.
Well..... I don't like this thing but I can understand it.
Anyway I opened a post with some articles about nanotechnology..... I hope you will read it. In particular the document from NATO is very interesting.
Here's the [URL=http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22597]link[/URL].

Number 2:
[COLOR=royalblue]CHANGES TO THE GAMEPLAY?[/COLOR]

If it would be developed a weapon that permits in some cases to take the control of your opponent, probably there would be some changes to the game-play.
People who play with ToS from a lot of time probably have got their tactics and their assurances about the games. A weapon like NWM vector probably would violate their cornerstones.
So they could think it's a dreadful idea.
It wasn't my intention to create problems, so from this post I won't talk anymore about NWM vector.
But I affirm this:
[COLOR=teal]1) When you make sequels of a game you have to introduce new things..... if the sequel is too similar to the original one, maybe many people could think that the original is better than the sequel, and they won't buy it.
2) Introducing some new weapons with exotic-effects (not necessarily the NWM vector) would add some spice to the game, 'cause it will force also old players to find out new tactics.
3) Campaignes with unbalanced missions (with opponents superior in number and rank) would add some other spice.[/COLOR]

Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 29
Re: Bombed wedding - 7/7/2002 3:32:19 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline
As usual, you don't read what's been posted, and you use information arbitrarily.
1) If you know what happened, you know it was not a *bombing*, some guy flying by a wedding thought he was being shot at and decided to launch first and ask questions later.
2) If this is for me, then you should have noticed I never said the word "tradition", I used "ways". *You* used tradition, go figure why.
You pretend to know a lot about Afghanistan, nevertheless you "forget" they had already defeated the british. What did they do it with, rocks? Uh huh.
How do you know about the use of weapons in weddings? Are you Afghan? Were you ever there? A sword is a weapon, so is a knife.
My initial post was not about traditions, I know what it was about, Larkin knows too, you on the other hand don't have a clue. If you want to reply fine, just don't assume you know what it is about. It had nothing to do with Afghanistan.
About shooting to the air, I'm sure official ceremonies and funerals are very stupid things. Just like hunting and target practice and all that stuff. Oh, and let's not forget firecrackers and fireworks that everyone seems to enjoy so much - and which every year result in death and property destruction.
Maybe *you* should start a fund to buy blanks for all Afghan weddings. Or would that still be very idiot to you?

_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 30
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