Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

To Kill a Mocking Word

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> To Kill a Mocking Word Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 6:10:24 AM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline
As forum posters go I am fairly mild-mannered. My philosophy is to live and let live, that there is room for opinions other than my own, and so on. Yet I come before you all today to propose the formation of a lynch mob.

We don’t have to do a lynching, of course. Tarring and feathering my proposed victim and running it out of town on a rail will do. My proposed victim? The term “fanboy.”

This word (and its variants, AFB, JFB, etc.) appears to me to have lost any usefulness it may once have possessed. Its main function now is to impede clear thought and the courteous, intelligent exchange of ideas. It seems that the first refuge of many of us, when confronted with an idea that runs counter to our own, is to cry “fanboy.” This creates the false impression that there are two camps of people involved in improving and playing the game, JFBs and AFBs. Or, as I think many see it, “rational, impartial me and all the fanboy idiots who disagree with me.” Because, of course, few if any of us see ourselves as fanboys. It is the dolts on the other side of the issue who are obviously fanboys.

I usually play Japan and my AARs have all been from the Japanese side. For various reasons I might be identified as a Japanese fan boy if anyone is. Yet I certainly don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone interested in a good game. I suspect most of us see ourselves the same way.

In short, it is a label. And it is sometimes easier to use the label than to stop and think that someone might have good or at least understandable reasons for disagreeing with us.

So death to “fanboy.” My suggestion: the next time you are tempted to use the word (or one of the aforementioned variants, especially the detested “fanboi”), stop. Attempt to compose your cunning and persuasive argument without using it. Think of it as a crutch. Throw away the crutch and let your arguments stand on their own.

I really, really do not intend to single anyone out here. The use of the word is pervasive and it is often used in friendly kind of way. But for the good of all of us I think its use must stop. Join me and help put an end to its blight upon the forum.


_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:03:37 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6380
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
This term can also be used to signify an Allied or japanese player(most of the time) as against one who plays both sides evenly.

As such it is shorthand.

If you take offence at being labelled an AFB or JFB then you are getting thin skinned.

Of course we could always come up with better names for those who idolise the evil empire which came up with Changi, the Bataan Death March & Unit 731 for starters.


_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 2
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:18:25 AM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

As forum posters go I am fairly mild-mannered. My philosophy is to live and let live, that there is room for opinions other than my own, and so on. Yet I come before you all today to propose the formation of a lynch mob.

We don’t have to do a lynching, of course. Tarring and feathering my proposed victim and running it out of town on a rail will do. My proposed victim? The term “fanboy.”

This word (and its variants, AFB, JFB, etc.) appears to me to have lost any usefulness it may once have possessed. Its main function now is to impede clear thought and the courteous, intelligent exchange of ideas. It seems that the first refuge of many of us, when confronted with an idea that runs counter to our own, is to cry “fanboy.” This creates the false impression that there are two camps of people involved in improving and playing the game, JFBs and AFBs. Or, as I think many see it, “rational, impartial me and all the fanboy idiots who disagree with me.” Because, of course, few if any of us see ourselves as fanboys. It is the dolts on the other side of the issue who are obviously fanboys.

I usually play Japan and my AARs have all been from the Japanese side. For various reasons I might be identified as a Japanese fan boy if anyone is. Yet I certainly don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone interested in a good game. I suspect most of us see ourselves the same way.

In short, it is a label. And it is sometimes easier to use the label than to stop and think that someone might have good or at least understandable reasons for disagreeing with us.

So death to “fanboy.” My suggestion: the next time you are tempted to use the word (or one of the aforementioned variants, especially the detested “fanboi”), stop. Attempt to compose your cunning and persuasive argument without using it. Think of it as a crutch. Throw away the crutch and let your arguments stand on their own.

I really, really do not intend to single anyone out here. The use of the word is pervasive and it is often used in friendly kind of way. But for the good of all of us I think its use must stop. Join me and help put an end to its blight upon the forum.







Sorry to say, but very many are biased towards the Allies thus deserving to be called Allied Fanboys.

Some of them are "so much" biased that objective thinking and rational thoughts don't exist if it hamper or damage the "allied" perspective or possibilities.

There are simply not any other word for this people then "allied fan boys"... Some of them helped out with developing AE... there was a Japanese fan boy helping out with AE to, but he got banned.


Maybe you can find other Japanese fan boys on the forum to, but I think there is far more AFB's here then Jap ones.





< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 12/7/2009 7:24:40 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 8:03:32 AM   
GB68

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 8/4/2009
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

As forum posters go I am fairly mild-mannered. My philosophy is to live and let live, that there is room for opinions other than my own, and so on. Yet I come before you all today to propose the formation of a lynch mob.

We don’t have to do a lynching, of course. Tarring and feathering my proposed victim and running it out of town on a rail will do. My proposed victim? The term “fanboy.”

This word (and its variants, AFB, JFB, etc.) appears to me to have lost any usefulness it may once have possessed. Its main function now is to impede clear thought and the courteous, intelligent exchange of ideas. It seems that the first refuge of many of us, when confronted with an idea that runs counter to our own, is to cry “fanboy.” This creates the false impression that there are two camps of people involved in improving and playing the game, JFBs and AFBs. Or, as I think many see it, “rational, impartial me and all the fanboy idiots who disagree with me.” Because, of course, few if any of us see ourselves as fanboys. It is the dolts on the other side of the issue who are obviously fanboys.

I usually play Japan and my AARs have all been from the Japanese side. For various reasons I might be identified as a Japanese fan boy if anyone is. Yet I certainly don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone interested in a good game. I suspect most of us see ourselves the same way.

In short, it is a label. And it is sometimes easier to use the label than to stop and think that someone might have good or at least understandable reasons for disagreeing with us.

So death to “fanboy.” My suggestion: the next time you are tempted to use the word (or one of the aforementioned variants, especially the detested “fanboi”), stop. Attempt to compose your cunning and persuasive argument without using it. Think of it as a crutch. Throw away the crutch and let your arguments stand on their own.

I really, really do not intend to single anyone out here. The use of the word is pervasive and it is often used in friendly kind of way. But for the good of all of us I think its use must stop. Join me and help put an end to its blight upon the forum.




I have to agree with Cuttlefish. The term(s) make me cringe every time I see them used. Especially when it seems to be in a derogatory or biased sense.

At first, I always felt the term (either AFB or JFB) was..... well....errrr.... hmmm, ok I'll just say it, a bit gay! Not there is anything wrong with that Although I could see the humourous (yes I spelled it correctly, the proper way ) side. And the subtle humour (again, correct!) was appealing.

But as Cuttlefish alludes to, it seems often now used as a subtle weapon. i.e.- "this must have been developed by a (insert either term here).." I've actually seen one person (who shall remain nameless) criticise the game consistently on the sole basis that it must have invented by a japanese fan boy? What?? This person has called the game a "disgrace" even. As far as I can tell, he (or she) is the only one. But makes no basis for the claim other than that everything is not absolutely, totally, pedantically correct historically!!

I applaud the team, who make a fantastic effort for us! They try so hard and make a game which is the envy of all other genres. They are not perfect, as we are not perfect. I have to admit to being someone who prefers to play the Japanese side ...certainly not a "fan boy". I feel the greater challenge lies there. Honestly, if you cannot win in the long term playing the Allies, you are doing something seriously wrong.

Banning the word, is probably impossible, but as Cuttlefish states, seek out the real problems you find. Then approach it in a rational, deductive way. Seek answers, suggest resolutions, offer your experience, but do not play school yard games.

Ok, I'm calm now...

_____________________________

"Are you going to come quietly, or do I have to use earplugs?"
- Spike Milligan

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 4
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 9:50:11 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41460
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
A noble sentiment, CF, but as you can see, it's too ingrained. I'm amazed at this place some time, and not in a good way.

However, I'm even more amazed that AE manages to be horribly imbalanced in favour of both sides. People like the second poster on this thread seems to think the development team is full of enthusiasts of one side, while if you sidle over to the nearby Kamikaze thread, there are people who think the exact opposite.

Their opinions say more about them than anything else.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 5
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 10:30:54 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
Ask and you shall receive Cuttlefish. See Termy managed to insult a whole slew of people without using the dreaded “fanboy” word.

Personally I think this kind of politically correct “don’t use a bad word that we all agree is a bad word” crap, is a total waste of time. Vilifying someone for using a common word or phrase is just a cheap way to attack someone, whom perhaps you may or may not disagree with.

This forum is filled with some very passionate and dedicated game fans. The term fanboy applies to almost 100% of us who use it. Whether we are Japanese or Allied fanboys really doesn’t matter. We all want the same thing in the end, a better gaming experience.

So let’s not start trying to brand people as bad people for using a common term used in probably 100% of gaming forums on the web. I would liken it to someone saying anyone who uses the term “website” is a boogeyman and a bad guy, don’t talk to him.

If you connote a bad meaning with the term fanboy, then change your opinion of the word and take it for what it means. Web definition:

quote:

“A fan, aficionado, or supporter is someone who has an intense, occasionally overwhelming liking and enthusiasm for a (fill in your thing here)”


The person using the term preceded by either Japanese or Allied, thinks the other guy has a bias towards one side or the other. It’s just easier to type out the single word than to list all you’re reasoning in a long rant. Everyone gets its meaning as soon as the word is used, no further expounding is needed.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 6
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 10:42:03 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
I think the biggest problem isn't a single word but the underlying issue which is that many people here ( both developers and players ) invest hugely in the NIHS ( Not Invented Here Syndrome ) and appear closed to opinions or even discussion which runs counter to their own assumptions.

When you get people deriding or refusing to engage with those who are trying to be evidence-based then you have proof certain that there's something rotten at the core.... Sadly all too often people here think that "but my bias says different" trumps the need for rational discourse. Obviously there are also situations where the person arguing the counterpoint is purely reliant on their own bias.


Unfortunately, ever was it so. Humans often aren't rational, open to new viewpoints, tolerant of difference or even, often, particularly nice. This forum is just a microcosm of that with people banding into pseudo-clans, exaggerating differences with others in order to increase the extent to which they "belong" to "their own clan" and projecting out against "the other" that which they find unacceptable within themselves.


I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 12/7/2009 10:44:35 AM >

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 12:57:12 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
I too have problems with the term, but when given the pic of the most beautiful 4 engined bomber that might have been,(aside from its' being obsolete upon completion), and seeing it came with the name, I was just grateful for the art..

Other than that, I find the term somewhat "girlish".

Might be I have just been a hard core sonovab*tch at some point?

_____________________________




(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 8
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 2:23:25 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Ask and you shall receive Cuttlefish. See Termy managed to insult a whole slew of people without using the dreaded “fanboy” word.


You misspelled "accurately describe".

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 9
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 2:57:22 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7934
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

This term can also be used to signify an Allied or japanese player(most of the time) as against one who plays both sides evenly.

As such it is shorthand.

If you take offence at being labelled an AFB or JFB then you are getting thin skinned.

Of course we could always come up with better names for those who idolise the evil empire which came up with Changi, the Bataan Death March & Unit 731 for starters.



You do realize that the Colonial Powers were not much better (and in some cases worse) to the indigenous populations right? And that it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is why is someone a 'fanboy' for preferring to play a particular side in a GAME?

Am I a 'fanboy'? I guess I am since I prefer to play the Japanese side due to the added challenge it presents me, those being 1)the full economic model and 2) the fact that I'm out-numbered and out-gunned. I have played the Allied side before but find it less challenging. So I find it much more interesting to play as Japan for those reasons.

So, by your definition I am in fact a JFB, because I prefer to play as Japan. However I am not blinded by my preferred play-style to the point that I can't play the Allies or see the game from that point of view.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 10
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 3:29:47 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7261
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
Cuttlefish, I couldn't agree more. I find alot of the posters on this forum to be gentlemen, and reasonable towards improving a great game to be even better. I understand Jim Burns's point around labels, and I don't want to chase anyone off this forum either even if I think they might be less than civil, as I like the passion sometimes. But making a point, and then being called a "JFB" or "AFB" is getting tiresome.

Most players prefer to play one side or another, but that doesn't make you biased. I prefer Japan generally, though I am playing Cuttlefish as Allies, and playing the other side is something I highly recommend if you want to be a good player.

I have no idea what Nemo said as I have trouble with big words, but I think it was "the Internet allows people to be less civil to each other than they would IRL", or "there are alot of a**holes on the internet", something like that!


_____________________________


(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 11
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 3:35:57 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7934
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Cuttlefish, I couldn't agree more. I find alot of the posters on this forum to be gentlemen, and reasonable towards improving a great game to be even better. I understand Jim Burns's point around labels, and I don't want to chase anyone off this forum either even if I think they might be less than civil, as I like the passion sometimes. But making a point, and then being called a "JFB" or "AFB" is getting tiresome.

Most players prefer to play one side or another, but that doesn't make you biased. I prefer Japan generally, though I am playing Cuttlefish as Allies, and playing the other side is something I highly recommend if you want to be a good player.

I have no idea what Nemo said as I have trouble with big words, but I think it was "the Internet allows people to be less civil to each other than they would IRL", or "there are alot of a**holes on the internet", something like that!



The internet is an enabler, people are far...braver (I use the term loosely)...because they don't have to face the person they are insulting.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 12
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 3:36:46 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21101
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
I've never used the term, but only because I've never quite understood what it's supposed to mean.  For the same reason, the sentiment "break a leg" has always escaped me.  It's supposed to be an expression of good luck but sounds like bad luck to me.  By the same token, the FB term can be used in seemingly various ways:  deragatory, mocking, humorous, self-effacing.  Since it has so many possible uses and meanings, I've never quite pinned it down to my own satisfaction.  But I have no problem with folks using it to describe themselves in a fun kind of way.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 13
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 3:58:02 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
But making a point, and then being called a "JFB" or "AFB" is getting tiresome.


Yeah, but to ban a word? Whether starting out as a voluntary or involuntary ban, this smacks of behavior police to me. If you build up a culture of not saying or using a word/phrase, then sooner or later it becomes prohibited to use or say the word and people who use it will be vilified for its use.

The ‘N’ word is a good example, it has become so engrained in the American psyche that it is verboten to say or use the word if you’re not a black person that they actually tried to pass a law to make it a criminal offense to say the word. Of course it would have only applied to non-black people, but they actually wanted to send people to jail for using a word.

Please let’s not go down that same ridiculous PC road on this forum. If you don’t like how someone is speaking or behaving, there is a green button down on the lower left right next to the buddy button, use it liberally and let’s stop trying to modify people’s use of a word or phrase.

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 14
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 3:58:36 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2346
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
Some people must take themselves and others too serious. I'm an AFB call me it all you like. I don't view it as a derogatory nor endearing term. Too many people that play one side want ahistorical advantages for game purposes. I use the term JFB and sometimes use it to describe someone who enjoys the challenge of playing the Japanese side and sometimes use it to describe someone who wants more ahistorical advantages than what's already given to the Japanese side. I never use it to demean someone because that's not my nature being a god fearing man.

I tried playing the Japanese side in WITP and UV and it is fun and in some cases more challenging than playing the allied side for sure, but it may be a physcological thing but I can't get around to enjoying sinking ships I loved and treasured my whole life and being a US Navy veteran I just can't enjoy it, even though I know it's a game.

Allied Fan Boy.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 12/7/2009 4:05:02 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 15
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 4:01:25 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25326
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
Cuttlefish,

Noble sentiment indeed. I consider you one of the bright lights of this forum, rather than one of the dismal dissatisfied souls that haunt this locale looking for a fight. As IRL, it takes time to build a reputation for fairness and even handedness.

But I ain't changing my avatar and siggy image for anything.


_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 16
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 4:52:01 PM   
canuck64


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline
Identifying with our opinions is the problem, and it's stupid. This business of "fanboys" is just flat out dumb-

I recall someone somewhere saying that the surest measure of sanity is the "ability to tolerate a competing narrative". Let's not forget how wars start-they start when I'm "RIGHT" and you're "WRONG" and someone then has to die because of it.

Personally, I discount pretty rapidly JFB/AFB perspectives as being entirely agenda/ego-driven. Identifying with an opinion to that degree just seems pointless-


(and yes, I'm now advocating my own non-agenda agenda). Bottom line: I play hotseat against....well, me- if I can't find PBEM takers-because I want to see the game engine managed and coherent. Something that no matter how much work Andy puts into AI scripts is never going to happen.
I also reject out of hand ANY statistical/game mechanic oddities recorded by someone playing against the AI.

So there's my opinion. Apparently my having one is common, and similar to something else....
can't remember what....

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 17
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 4:58:49 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5489
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: online
Part of what I find interesting is that the term fanboy or fanboi started out being used in jest. I do tend not to use it now because it has degenerated into a more derogatory term.

_____________________________


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 18
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 5:13:00 PM   
canuck64


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.


Succinct and well-stated, Nemo. My opinion alone, eh?

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 19
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 6:23:13 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline
Well...I tried.

Just to be clear on one point, though, since some people seem to have misconstrued my meaning here. I do not ask people to avoid using the term because it is insulting or for some vague PC-motivated reason. No indeed. It was merely my observation that the word has become a barrier to intelligent discussion. Used the way that Chickenboy, for instance, uses it in his sig it is a friendly and funny term. But if start a thread to the effect that

(Note: the following claim is being made for example purposes only. I am NOT making this claim. It is merely an example. Please do not respond to this example)

the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes seems to be too low I might expect someone to post a reply saying that yes, the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes really was that bad. Someone else might post some counter-arguments and alternate statistics. Discussion ensues. We are all grognards here, we love this sort of thing. But pretty soon (and sooner rather than later these days, or so it seems to me) someone will haul out the "fanboy" term to dismiss the people on the opposing side of the argument and there goes your fun, nit-picky thread about Japanese float planes. It's use seems to signal the descent of a thread into pointless bickering and insults.

Some threads will get there anyway, of course. It's just the nature of debate on the internet.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"




(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 20
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 6:36:05 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I think the biggest problem isn't a single word but the underlying issue which is that many people here ( both developers and players ) invest hugely in the NIHS ( Not Invented Here Syndrome ) and appear closed to opinions or even discussion which runs counter to their own assumptions.

When you get people deriding or refusing to engage with those who are trying to be evidence-based then you have proof certain that there's something rotten at the core.... Sadly all too often people here think that "but my bias says different" trumps the need for rational discourse. Obviously there are also situations where the person arguing the counterpoint is purely reliant on their own bias.


Unfortunately, ever was it so. Humans often aren't rational, open to new viewpoints, tolerant of difference or even, often, particularly nice. This forum is just a microcosm of that with people banding into pseudo-clans, exaggerating differences with others in order to increase the extent to which they "belong" to "their own clan" and projecting out against "the other" that which they find unacceptable within themselves.


I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.


I would have said this myself, but then better. You beat me to it though



(this was a joke).

On a more serious note, banning a word will not change human behaviour. Some feed of emotions, especially in internet discussion. I know a gamesite that existed a looooong time ago (Medieval total war fansite, totalwars.net). There was an area - the warzone - where people were allowed to participate in "internet jousting" aka smartass each other in the forums.

It was nice as a kind of experiment but it showed what can happen to people once you "unleash" them. It ain't a pretty sight.

Personally I like the saying "don't argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" and it has done me countless favours (is this the way you say it?) in internet conversation AND in real life..



_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 21
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 6:38:41 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
Cuttlefish I understand what you are saying, and I agree.

_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 22
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 6:40:28 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41460
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

Just to be clear on one point, though, since some people seem to have misconstrued my meaning here. I do not ask people to avoid using the term because it is insulting or for some vague PC-motivated reason. No indeed. It was merely my observation that the word has become a barrier to intelligent discussion. Used the way that Chickenboy, for instance, uses it in his sig it is a friendly and funny term. But if start a thread to the effect that

(Note: the following claim is being made for example purposes only. I am NOT making this claim. It is merely an example. Please do not respond to this example)

the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes seems to be too low I might expect someone to post a reply saying that yes, the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes really was that bad. Someone else might post some counter-arguments and alternate statistics. Discussion ensues. We are all grognards here, we love this sort of thing. But pretty soon (and sooner rather than later these days, or so it seems to me) someone will haul out the "fanboy" term to dismiss the people on the opposing side of the argument and there goes your fun, nit-picky thread about Japanese float planes. It's use seems to signal the descent of a thread into pointless bickering and insults.

Some threads will get there anyway, of course. It's just the nature of debate on the internet.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"






You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 23
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:08:22 PM   
frank1970


Posts: 1678
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline
CF is absolutely right. Imho supressing the opinion of others by giving names has a good old tradition (not only in Germany) and I dislike it very much! (Yes, I am a freespeech fanboy!"

_____________________________

If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!

"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 24
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:17:05 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18668
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"



You didn't fail at all, CF. You made me laugh my ass off with that line.





_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 25
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:20:20 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.

I’m with Terminus. Definitely not an ‘epic fail’ CF. Agree with you, but also agree with others that say this cannot be expunged. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Little egos will always whine with little voices on little issues, no matter what ya do. And to make themselves important, they always blame their own inadequacy on some hidden, mystical, opposing fanboism. Sigh.

Unfortunately, we all have to go through puberty, and that’s not pretty, and sometimes it lasts a lot longer than it biologically should.

No worries CF. You get it. Just realize how immature the fanboy thing is, and give the teeny boppers a break. They really are beneath your notice.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 26
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:23:24 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14503
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
I had not realized what a hated and devisive word "fanboy" was till I read some of the above posts. I had always seen it as a short hand used by players , to indicate their side preference. Apparently it is a much more meaningfull and offensive word that I ever dreamed! Perhaps you fine gentlemen could take the time to come up with a "speach code" so that Newbies and neanderthaals (like myself) will not inadvertenlty give offense. I promise not to use the word again. Perhaps you can come up with a politicaly correct, totally inoffensive replacement word to indicate which side one perfers to play?

(in reply to frank1970)
Post #: 27
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:26:58 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41460
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
You can prefer to play a given side without being a fanboy. Major Mike prefers to play the Japs, but he's not a fanboy.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 28
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:35:09 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Perhaps you can come up with a politicaly correct, totally inoffensive replacement word to indicate which side one perfers to play?


Hmmm...

How about man caused, game addicted, axis/allied player, who in no way means to give offense to anyone or cause them to lose sleep over the inadvertent and accidental use of a harsh term or word?

Gah! To hell with it, I’m a friggin fanboy till the day I die. AE RuLeZ!

_____________________________


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 29
RE: To Kill a Mocking Word - 12/7/2009 7:58:38 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.

I’m with Terminus. Definitely not an ‘epic fail’ CF. Agree with you, but also agree with others that say this cannot be expunged. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Little egos will always whine with little voices on little issues, no matter what ya do. And to make themselves important, they always blame their own inadequacy on some hidden, mystical, opposing fanboism. Sigh.

Unfortunately, we all have to go through puberty, and that’s not pretty, and sometimes it lasts a lot longer than it biologically should.

No worries CF. You get it. Just realize how immature the fanboy thing is, and give the teeny boppers a break. They really are beneath your notice.



I never use these term (I trust none of us are boys) but , I find this subject as it relates to these acronyms ridiculous. And if we all start using " I find you have a preference for playing the Allied/Axis side and your comments reflect a bias to that end". Would we then be looking for that combination of keystrokes to be up in arms about and look to ban them. Come on folks!! These letters do not indicate ones attitude towards a persons color, religion or ethnicity only a playing style preference and opinion ABOUT A GAME. What the hell is next.

These comments are not directed towards you JWE or any others who wish to concede to using the terms, just the issue.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> To Kill a Mocking Word Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.457