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Score Mod Ver - Update 1.01 posted! - 10/22/2009 4:58:46 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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The Mod has been complete and the latest version is attached to this post. Enjoy!
---------------------------------------------
How does the scoring work in TLD?

Can each VL/flag be assigned a score or is are they all equal? If not each VL, can each map be given a different score or is that also all the same? I believe back in CC5 there were three 'levels' of VL score - 1, 2 and 3 points and that was what we used when playing ladder games to determine who won or lost. Don't know if that is still the case in TLD .

Finally, if each VL can be assigned a different score, is there any limit to the scale of values that can be used? For example, can one flag be worth 100 points and another 20 etc.

What I would like to be able to do is up the scale on the point so that it can be made much more dynamic and create a greater sense of strategic goals. Currently it is pretty fuzzy - just take as many areas as you can, when really, some of the depots and choke points should be scored higher I think. I'm used to playing WITP and in that game, for example, Wake Island is worth a whole lot less than Tokyo.

If the VLs can be scored individually I might take a crack at going through each map and assigning more varied values.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 12/14/2009 5:58:27 AM >


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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 8:26:57 PM   
Andrew Williams


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Values can be

50 exit Vls

100 and 200

look at the *.btd files in your maps folder (excel)

You can also deduce this by looking at the size of the labels on the battle map.  ie Big letters = more points.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 8:57:59 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Yes, the bigger font size was how it was back in CC5, wasn't sure if that had carried over.

I'll take a look at this when I get home - thanks!!

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 9:02:31 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Here's a question -

If I wanted to add some extra flags to a map, is there any minimum distance you have to maintain between VLs to prevent any issues?

I'm thinking for maps I really want to push up, if I had to I could add some high value flags.


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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 10:56:12 PM   
Andrew Williams


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I'll need to double check this but

I don't think there is any minimum distance for 100 and 200 pt VL's  (feel free to experiment)

but the 50pt exit/Entry VL's need to be seperated enough so that deployment doesn't overlap  if BG's enter adjacent VL's



Maximum of 16VL's on a map

will get back to you


< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 10/22/2009 11:06:31 PM >

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 11:24:42 PM   
Senior Drill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I'll need to double check this but

I don't think there is any minimum distance for 100 and 200 pt VL's  (feel free to experiment) ..........


One VL per mega-tile. See Mafi's BDT Editor.


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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 11:39:34 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Cool, thanks Andrew & Drill! That should be plenty. I don't need to add any exit VLs, just the other ones. I'll be sure to post here with further thoughts as I go in case anyone has input.



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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/22/2009 11:49:30 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Any idea where I can find Mafi's BDT editor?

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 12:12:26 AM   
Andrew Williams


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http://www.dieppe.claranet.de/BED9.zip

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 2:47:02 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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Thanks, Andrew!

This editor is perfect for what I want to do. Kudos to Mafi!!

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 10/23/2009 3:35:58 AM >


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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 5:24:32 PM   
panzerlehr62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Here's a question -

If I wanted to add some extra flags to a map, is there any minimum distance you have to maintain between VLs to prevent any issues?

I'm thinking for maps I really want to push up, if I had to I could add some high value flags.



Hello Feurer Krieg,

I think you are on to somethg here. Only question I would present is that adding flags might change the length of time needed to take a map, which may or may not be a problem if its determinded that certain maps need to be made tuffer to take (a secondary effect to go along with making the map worth more points). Maybe it should be the choke point maps you mentioned as the ones getting the extra flags?

Clearly I think lowering the flag values (maybe to lowest value possible) on some maps (not changing the number) that are just basically there as filler and raising the value for maps of importance is the ticket.

After all your years with WITP I can't think of anyone else who could pull that off better then you can.

Gz...


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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 5:35:48 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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So far I've put together a spreadsheet of the maps and total values currently assigned, # of exits (to determine minimum pts of 50 * Exits).

Using that, I will build a % of total map point and tinker with the numbers until it gets to where I think it should be. I'll send it off to you when I get that far, and maybe you can provide some input on what area you think should be higher.

I agree that depending on flag placement some maps may take longer, but many of those flags will be close together, a mega-tile isn't very big. If they are placed close to each other it could help generate more 'close combat' but also, for those critical maps, it will make it less likely that a morale break will cost you the map. I think that is actually a good thing on those critical maps.

Overall though, I suspect with the close VLs, if you are able to take one, you will be pretty close to taking them all.

Anyway - feel free to post thoughts on those areas that should be required to trigger Allied major victory. I plan to do some research on Allied objectives by June 9th for some guidance there, but anyone who has opinions is free to chime in.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 8:04:07 PM   
panzerlehr62


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To Matrix Staff:

Mafi's editor is greatness by the way!

Question I have is this: If one were to make point changes to the maps now, would that cause any issues say with an ongoing GC game file? Not talking about adding flags, just changing the values of the ones already there, or is it like everythg else once the game file is created it uses the map points at that time only.


Gz...



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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 9:28:10 PM   
Andrew Williams


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You are Very likely to have problems.

But

Back up your campaign

Back up your btd's


Edit a couple of BTD's with massive changes.


test and report back compared to your saved campaign.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 9:30:26 PM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

I plan to do some research on Allied objectives by June 9th for some guidance there, but anyone who has opinions is free to chime in.



The stock strat man in tLD is the Allied objectives for Day 1 of the campaign... they failed almost on all counts to reach their Day 1 objectives.


I nearly got there V the AI

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2101214

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/23/2009 11:09:26 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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I understand that the map represents all the objectives. However, I think several objectives are more important than others.

It just doesn't seem right that you can get an Allied Major victory even if you didn't take any of the major objectives like Carentan, Bayuex, Caen, and some of the other German depots on the map.

I'm going to scale down a lot of the areas that have 'in game' value - such at the beaches and major choke points - because the 'points' should (IMO) represent obtaining the end result. Clearing your beaches will help you a lot because you have supply, clearing major intersections will give you mobility, those are in game benefits so you shouldn't get as many points for those areas. If you want the points - use those areas to help you take the big objectives.

If you are able to take Caen or Carentan by June 9th - which is ahead of when the Allies historically took them - you should get a big reward.

I just want to make it so it is harder for the Allies to get a Major Victory so that getting it actually means you did better than the Allies really did. As it is, getting Major Victory doesn't seem like a big deal considering that you can take most of the same places the Allies did historically to get to that victory level. In my mind, if you did exactly as well as historical Allies you should score a draw.

By doing this, it should also change how the German player defends because certain areas will critical, but at the same time, they will have the ability to abandon certain areas to try some envelopments because the areas they abandon will not be worth so many points.



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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/24/2009 5:41:07 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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Not sure if anyone is interested, but here are the stock scores of the maps in TLD. I think this will make a good mod. panzerlehr62 and I will work on this (because we want to make the game the way we like it!) but I'm happy get input from anyone.

You'll notice the most valuable area on the map is Pont du Hoc. That's right - you are better off capturing Pont du Hoc than Caen or Carentan or any other area on the map. Well, that is an exaggeration, but it does illustrate why I want to adjust the scores.

Also, in the mod, I am going to list the total pt value as well as the % of the total in the briefing for both German and Allied sides so that you will be able to gauge the relative value of a map from within the game.

I think the current scoring scheme is fine when playing these maps as singles or small ops, but I don't know if a lot of analysis has been put into how the scores shake out in the full campaign. There isn't a ton a variability here, which means once you take about half the maps, regardless of which ones they are, you will be 'winning' the game on points. Even if you took all of the lowest value maps, you would only need 38 of 65 maps (58%) to be winning the game.

We aim to fix that.

Cheers!




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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/24/2009 6:31:04 AM   
Tejszd

 

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Sounds good Feurer Krieg!

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/24/2009 7:16:26 AM   
Andrew Williams


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The points system also works at the AI strat LEVEL.


hIGH POINTS MAPS SUCH AS pT DU hOC WOULD SERVE TO PULL gERMAN REINFORCEMENTS FORWARD RATHER THAN JUST CAMP AT THE BACK OF THE STRAT MAP.


BUGGA...  caps lock on... I'm not going to fix it.


Your suggestion though seems to have merit for a H2H mod.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/24/2009 7:40:38 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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Yes, this is definitely going to be a H2H only mod.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/25/2009 12:20:06 AM   
panzerlehr62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

BUGGA...  caps lock on... I'm not going to fix it.



Having another vision of 2031...



quote:

ORGINAL: Feurer Krieg

You'll notice the most valuable area on the map is Pont du Hoc. That's right - you are better off capturing Pont du Hoc than Caen or Carentan or any other area on the map.



Thats same thought process we use to elect our politicians.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good job so far Krieg. Man I can't believe Carentan is like 14th, that was my whole objecive in this GC, considering I didn't think I had a chance in hades of getting a good footing at Caen. I am so bummed out now...

If I knew Sword was so high on the list I would have never let you get there....

Jess, the goldmine of the entire GC at Pointe Du Hoc ive totally ignored (that should qualify me for a promotion!)!

Gz...

< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 10/25/2009 12:21:53 AM >

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/25/2009 11:31:11 AM   
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Would the AI rather attack a map worth a lot of points, but with no supply function; or a supply source on a low points map?

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/25/2009 6:34:03 PM   
Tejszd

 

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Good question.... The AI on the strat map seems pretty limited and I'm guessing it only takes into account the point values.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 10/27/2009 11:14:25 AM   
CSO_Talorgan


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That's what I thought too.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 11/9/2009 10:00:41 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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quote:

Maximum of 16VL's on a map

will get back to you


Andrew - just saw this and I then proceeded to test it. Seems you are correct about the 16 vl limit.

Any way to change this limit OR allow flags to be worth more than 200pts? Either change will work for me.

Thanks

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RE: Scoring mod? - 11/9/2009 10:22:54 AM   
Andrew Williams


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Afraid not.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 11/9/2009 5:45:14 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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PM'd you about the current mod, but just for the wish list of future CC games, would be great to have VL values read in from a text file.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 11/10/2009 9:40:35 AM   
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I have heard of more than one VL being stacked in the same location, but I know not what version of the gane it was for.

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RE: Scoring mod? - 11/10/2009 8:13:45 PM   
FeurerKrieg


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Stacking does work, but I'm not sure if you can stack beyond the 16 VL limit. I'm experimenting with a few things though, so we'll see what I can figure out.

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Testing results - 11/14/2009 8:56:24 AM   
FeurerKrieg


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UPDATE:

Okay, so I've been messing with this all week as time allowed. I played through probably 40-50 different combinations of flags and BTD values to really try to understand how this thing works. Figured out some interesting things, which maybe the devs already know, but I don't think anyone has told me. I'll put this up here just to help with the body of knowledge on how the game works with scoring.

The 'points' recorded in the BTD files are not how the flags are scored in game. The game actually used the numerical values in the BTD to determine what points the flags are worth BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. So while at first glance it appears that flags are worth 50, 100 and 200 points - that is not the case.

A flag that has a value of 50 assigned to it in the BTD will be worth 1 point. A flag that has 100 will be worth 2 points and a flag that is assigned 200 will be worth 3 points. So based on the BTD numbers, three 100pt flags are equal to two 200pt flags. Again, at first glance that seems wrong because 300 <> 400, but the BTD values do not correspond on a 1 to 1 basis. You actually are ending up with 3*2 does equal 2*3. Hope this makes sense.

But my testing didn't stop there. As mentioned before, you can indeed stack flags. This is good if you want to push up value of map without adding new flag locations.

Probably the biggest find, at least for my purposes, is that there is actually a fourth flag scoring value. That value is zero. If you set your BTD value for a flag to any value other than 50, 100 or 200, the flag will still function fine in game, but it will have a scoring value of zero. This is great for maps that need to be a low value, but still have flags to fight over and capture.

Unfortunately, exit flags have to be set at 50 or they don't work right. They will only be worth 1 pt, but sure would be nice if they could be worth zero as it would allow for more variability in map values. But at least non-exit maps can be made to equal zero and still be kept on map. For my mod this will allow me to leave all stock flags in place and still reduce the value of many maps.

Another neat thing I noticed is the way the BTD values affect the AI. One would expect that stacked flags would attract greater AI attention. However, things are better and easier than that. The value set in the BTD file seems to directly influence the value the AI assigns to that flag. For example - if you set a flag to be worth 3000 pts in the BTD, then play that map, you will find the AI stacks nearly all their units right on top of that flag.

While I'm not doing any AI modding, the nice thing about this is, you could set a flag to be worth 1 point more or less than 50, 100 or 200 (ie 199, 201, 101 etc), thus keeping the AI drivers intact, but making the flag worth zero points to help lower map values if that is your goal. Also - if the AI should be treating certain areas as more important than others, setting values of 250, 300, 350 etc will modify AI behavior noticably. I tried this on the Gold beach map. I was able to get the German AI to deploy into the 4 big bunker by cranking up the value of those VLs in the BTD. Combine this with stacking, and you could stack a 'zero pt, high AI value flag under a stock flag and retain stock scoring, while adjusting AI behavior on that specific map. Neat stuff.

To summarize:
1) BTD values are only triggers: 50 = 1pt, 100 =2pts, 200 = 3pts. Any other value = 0pts
2) Stacking flags works
3) Setting flag value to 99 or 199 in order to make a flag 'score' 0 pts, does not adversely affect AI desire for that flag
4) Making a flag score 0 pts as above does not impact the way the game uses flags to determine deployment, area held, etc.
5) AI desire for flag is determined by value assigned to flag in BTD file.
6) Exit flags must be set to 50 in BTD (thus scoring 1 pt) or they do not work.

So as far as the mod goes, the recent VL limits I encountered set me back a bit while I sorted this stuff out. However, with the ability to set 0 pts for a flag, I can still make it work. I need to rescale my scores on a 0-48 basis, since the theoretical max pts for a map is 16 VLs @ 3 pts each, although that would be a map with no exits. But once I have done that we will be ready to begin recoding maps.

Along the way we have decided to make some slight adjustments to some of the entry points on maps to allow for more deployment area or slightly better deployment areas. I think panzerlehr62 is going to do more work on that than me, but any changes we make will be documented in a read me.

Hope this is useful for others - cheers!

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