Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Night Intruders

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Night Intruders Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 2:53:10 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Ok, having now played pretty closely for three weeks, I have identified what I believe is the most annoying aspect of an otherwise very satisfying game: night introders. No matter what I try, I cannot find a way to plan their missions in a way that even occasionally allows them to shoot down an enemy fighter. I'm not asking to destroy the Luftwaffe, mind you -- I just want a few kills to justify the work put into programming those missions. I've tried puitting NI's over target cities, I've tried parking them over air bases. One of the problems with the latter, by the way, is that since British missions tend to roam deeper into Germany than American ones, in 1943, at least, I can't recon enough airbases along thier paths to determine where enemy fighters might be based. No to mention the fact that identifying which air fields have fighters is not the same as knowing which bases have night fighters on them.

Anyway, I find night intruderrs seemingly so pointless in general that lately I have just handed them over to the a.i. to plan their missions. The a.i. is no better at making them effective than I am -- but at least it doesn't waste any of my time in its fecklessness!
Post #: 1
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 3:18:33 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
My formula for NIs. I'm certain that Sarge is better but I do OK... about 50 to 80 kills a turn.

Launch your bombers at 19:00 (this won't work against human). Launch RCMs at the same time or a little later going up each side of the bomber stream. Use the multiple fighter option for them.

For the rest of the NIs, don't use multiples, just send one at a time and prepare for carpal tunnel syndrome. Presumably you write down the bases that launch NJs EVERY turn. You need this information.

Now, start with the first AF on your list, set altitude to maybe 8000, launch a single NF at 20:00. Then launch another a half hour later, and so on until 22:00 when you have launched a total of 5 to that AF. Go to the next AF and again launch five single NFs spaced 1/2 hour apart from 20:00 until 22:00. Do this for ALL the AFs on your list. You should have about 25 AFs to cover. Don't bother with the deep ones like Metz for now because your planes won't hang around for long enough.

Use your best planes as much as possible. XIIIs are much better at this than XIIs. IIs are not good at all. But use whatever you need to in order to cover all these AFs.

Then when the night's activities start, write down the AFs the LW launches from so you'll have them for next turn.

This should fix you up.


Carlos

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 2
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 4:30:09 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

My formula for NIs. I'm certain that Sarge is better but I do OK... about 50 to 80 kills a turn.

Launch your bombers at 19:00 (this won't work against human). Launch RCMs at the same time or a little later going up each side of the bomber stream. Use the multiple fighter option for them.

For the rest of the NIs, don't use multiples, just send one at a time and prepare for carpal tunnel syndrome. Presumably you write down the bases that launch NJs EVERY turn. You need this information.

Now, start with the first AF on your list, set altitude to maybe 8000, launch a single NF at 20:00. Then launch another a half hour later, and so on until 22:00 when you have launched a total of 5 to that AF. Go to the next AF and again launch five single NFs spaced 1/2 hour apart from 20:00 until 22:00. Do this for ALL the AFs on your list. You should have about 25 AFs to cover. Don't bother with the deep ones like Metz for now because your planes won't hang around for long enough.

Use your best planes as much as possible. XIIIs are much better at this than XIIs. IIs are not good at all. But use whatever you need to in order to cover all these AFs.

Then when the night's activities start, write down the AFs the LW launches from so you'll have them for next turn.

This should fix you up.

What exactly do the RCM's do in game terms? That's something that I find a bit opaque.
As to the rest of your system, it sounds excellent, except for the carpel-tunnel repetitiveness. I already get enough of that from sending out my recon every turn! (NOTE TO DEVS: FIND A WAY TO STREAMLINE THIS FOR A NEXT RELEASE!)

My only objection to your advice is this: I won't record where enemy planes take off from. That strikes me as too gamey and an artifact of setting your messages to the most detailed level when IRL most of what the Allies knew about enemy basing is what their recon told them.
I wonder if I can mange to win the game without this knowledge. . . .

(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 3
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 5:02:47 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10291
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
Knowing which bases have night fighters on can involve a bit of guesswork, against the AI (iirc) the follwoing bases start with NFs on them:
Deelen
Twente
St Trond
Juvincourt
Stade
Rheine
Lipperode

If you're not using high level messages than you'll just have to send out some patrols to random bases in the hopes of catching something. Eventually you'll find where some NFs are based and you can plot accordingly.

Another option is to set the patrols around the groups of airfields near Bremen, a single patrol can (if you're lucky) cover multiple airfields. A similar thing can work in a couple of places around the Ruhr as well. The best options for the intruder missions are Beaufighters or Mosquito NFII.

The second method is to plot your Serrate equipped Mossies (MkXII and XIII) to follow the bomber stream but with a time delay and a 2-3000 feet higher altitude. You know what path the bombers are taking and you know that the Luftwaffe will be sending it's NFs into the stream to shoot them down, so having your NFs among the stream will lead to some chances. The serrate equipment detects the LW radar signals giving a better chance of an interception. The problem here is the differing speeds of your a/c which is why it's best to send the NFs in waves.

What results are you expecting from your NI missions? For Ranger patrols (airfield missions) 2-3 aircraft shot down at a base is a good night. For Serrate patrols, half a dozen intercepts would be a good number and any more than a couple of NFs shot down is a decent result. The sky is a big place, especially at night in the 1940's

< Message edited by Dixie -- 10/21/2009 5:03:37 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 4
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 5:32:37 PM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

My only objection to your advice is this: I won't record where enemy planes take off from. That strikes me as too gamey and an artifact of setting your messages to the most detailed level when IRL most of what the Allies knew about enemy basing is what their recon told them.
I wonder if I can mange to win the game without this knowledge. . . .


IRL there were many ways other than photo recon to determine where aircraft were based, from good old human intelligence (especially in the occupied countries) through prisoners, radio interception all the way up to ULTRA, so I don't think its too gamey.


_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 5
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 6:26:19 PM   
mgp104

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
I have a rather different tactic for night bombing, it seems to work quite well (ie. not too many bomber losses and many enemy nightfighters shot down).

I send all my bomber raids out at 21:00, but I send RCM units at 20:00. I send night intruder squadrons that have poor experience in multi plane sorties to random airfields (usually choosing tracks that don't fly over flak zones), the first 6 plane sortie is sent at 19:00, the second 3 plane sortie at 20:00 and the final 3 plane sortie at 21:00. Often I will send these planes to somewhere well away from the bombers' targets to further disrupt enemy plans.

This has the effect of bringing up lots of enemy nightfighters at 19:00 which chase the intruders in a futile fashion without any real chance of intercept. By the time the bombers start arriving over Germany a lot of the interceptors have gone back home to refuel. Usually using this tactic I only lose 10-20 bombers per night even on raids deep into Germany.

The second part of my strategy is to send all the best night intruder units to airfields that I know are night fighter bases. I usually send then out (individually) at 10 minute intervals from 20:30. I usually get 50+ enemy aircraft destroyed attempting to land and very rarely, if ever, lose a on of my night fighters.

(in reply to Howard Mitchell)
Post #: 6
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 6:27:17 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What results are you expecting from your NI missions? For Ranger patrols (airfield missions) 2-3 aircraft shot down at a base is a good night. For Serrate patrols, half a dozen intercepts would be a good number and any more than a couple of NFs shot down is a decent result. The sky is a big place, especially at night in the 1940's

I would be ecstatic to get 2-3 kills a night.
Anyway, thanks for the excellent advice.
Thanks too to mgp104. I'll try your method as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell
IRL there were many ways other than photo recon to determine where aircraft were based, from good old human intelligence (especially in the occupied countries) through prisoners, radio interception all the way up to ULTRA, so I don't think its too gamey.

Point taken, and I'll be less squeamish about how I get information on basing in the future. I still think the detailed messages are unrealistically informative in their comprehensiveness (in effect you can find out everywhere the LW is based on any given turn), but it's good to be reminded of how this information might have been available in the war.

< Message edited by Kriegsspieler -- 10/21/2009 6:31:46 PM >

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 7
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 6:32:47 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

What results are you expecting from your NI missions? For Ranger patrols (airfield missions) 2-3 aircraft shot down at a base is a good night. For Serrate patrols, half a dozen intercepts would be a good number and any more than a couple of NFs shot down is a decent result. The sky is a big place, especially at night in the 1940's

I would be ecstatic to get 2-3 kills a night.
Anyway, thanks for the excellent advice.
Thanks too to mgp104. I'll try your method as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell
IRL there were many ways other than photo recon to determine where aircraft were based, from good old human intelligence (especially in the occupied countries) through prisoners, radio interception all the way up to ULTRA, so I don't think its too gamey.

Point taken, and I'll be less squeamish about how I get information on basing in the future. I still think the detailed messages are unrealistically informative in their comprehensiveness (in effect you can find out everywhere the LW is based on any given turn), but it's good to be reminded of how this information might have been available in the war via different means.


< Message edited by Kriegsspieler -- 10/21/2009 6:33:37 PM >

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 8
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 7:13:21 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
Hey, KS, my response has already been mentioned. The Allies had a reasonably good idea of what units were where. Maybe not at that particular instant but would accumlate it over time. If you plot on the basis of the previous turn's results you'll have a certain number of misses because they do move their units around. However, the NJs seem to use only a certain set of bases through the game and they can be targeted with a higher probability of success than just random. We all have our own private rules I guess.


Carl

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 9
RE: Night Intruders - 10/21/2009 10:25:29 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Hey, KS, my response has already been mentioned. The Allies had a reasonably good idea of what units were where. Maybe not at that particular instant but would accumlate it over time. If you plot on the basis of the previous turn's results you'll have a certain number of misses because they do move their units around. However, the NJs seem to use only a certain set of bases through the game and they can be targeted with a higher probability of success than just random. We all have our own private rules I guess.l

No, I think your point is pretty reasonable. My quibble was that, on the face of it, being told every turn exactly where all of the opposing planes were taking off from seemed like TMI, if not of the usual, awkward, TMI-ey sort.

(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 10
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 12:18:20 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

My formula for NIs. I'm certain that Sarge is better but I do OK... about 50 to 80 kills a turn.

Launch your bombers at 19:00 (this won't work against human). Launch RCMs at the same time or a little later going up each side of the bomber stream. Use the multiple fighter option for them.

For the rest of the NIs, don't use multiples, just send one at a time and prepare for carpal tunnel syndrome. Presumably you write down the bases that launch NJs EVERY turn. You need this information.

Now, start with the first AF on your list, set altitude to maybe 8000, launch a single NF at 20:00. Then launch another a half hour later, and so on until 22:00 when you have launched a total of 5 to that AF. Go to the next AF and again launch five single NFs spaced 1/2 hour apart from 20:00 until 22:00. Do this for ALL the AFs on your list. You should have about 25 AFs to cover. Don't bother with the deep ones like Metz for now because your planes won't hang around for long enough.

Use your best planes as much as possible. XIIIs are much better at this than XIIs. IIs are not good at all. But use whatever you need to in order to cover all these AFs.

Then when the night's activities start, write down the AFs the LW launches from so you'll have them for next turn.

This should fix you up.


Carlos

Bear;
I use the same formula... But!
You forgot to mention write down the type of enemy plane, too. ME-109's & FW-190's will be returning to base before ME-110's & JU-88's. so schedule these intruders a little sooner or later.
I use a base altitude of 6500 and, also change the altitude between the individual intruders by 100 - 200 feet.
Later in the game, as your pilots' experience and scores increase you can lessen the number of intruders per airfield, thereby covering even more airfileds with the same results.

TS

... and prepare for carpal tunnel syndrome ... No truer words have been spoken!!!

(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 11
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 12:56:49 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Hey Kriegsspieler

I have obtained a lot of advice from Sarge and Swift and many others on this forum. I have experimented with a lot of ideas using BC. I have kind of built an overall BC Strike Strategy that seems to get pretty good results. Much better than I was getting before which IMHO was pretty good for a rookie.

I organize my strikes into 4 phases. Seduction, Distraction & Disruption, Strike, and finally Withdraw. I will describe the basic strategy of each phase and will follow up with some screenies of actual missions to describe better what and how.

With this I am by no means saying this is the Only way or the Best Way to run BC strikes. I am sharing what “I” have learned and and observed in running BC Missions. Many lessons learned at a very high cost. Probably very lucky for the RAF that I was not running the show. I have to point out that I am still working my way through my first full on Long 1943 campaign and by far BC has been my hardest hitting resource. Between mandatory targeting from HQ and the lack of long range escort for the Daylight Precision aspect I am hard pressed to really do more than give the Third Reich a bloody nose with anything other than BC at this point. I am sure that those of you that have really worked this game will have much more sound strategic and tactical advice to give than a rookie such as I .

As a Disclaimer, I would not recommend this strategy against a Human opponent. Humans are smart and quick to recognize a pattern and will react very quickly and learn very quickly. All at your displeasure. Also the relative mission time clock values I have shown will be modified as you go deeper into the Reich. Remember that the farther you have to travel over enemy turf the more assets you will have to tend with and the earlier phases of this strategy will become exponentially more difficult to carry out.

Seduction Phase: Mission Time 00:00 minutes
This is my Strike Opener. Stream in ECM AC with accompanying Night Fighters to cover and interdict Luftwaffe Night Interceptors. In this phase I draw LW assets away from the region of the nights target cities. This group of AC also include Night Fighters that maintain a CAP over Airfields either suspected to or confirmed to operate NJG AC. I also include ECM AC to shut down Radar in the vicinity of my strike. I want to get all of these assets in place before my strike force moves in. I also want to draw up the maximum Luftwaffe assets at this early point of my strike that I can and seduce them away from the strike.

Distraction & Disruption Phase: Mission Time + 15:00 to 30:00 minutes
In this phase all my ECM birds to distract NJG AC are in place in regions of a proximity of the strike area to pull assets from the strike region to the ECM AC and keep them pinned there. I also attach Night Fighters to the locations of these ECM AC to interdict the NJG interceptors as they attempt to engage my ECM Distraction AC. I also station ECM birds over every single Radar site that has any Radar coverage of the Target Region or the path into it taken by my Strike Force. At this time I also have Night Fighters capping NJG Airfields. I maintain an overlap of these AC over the airfields so that I don’t lose my interdiction capability at these airfields during any portion of the strike. This also allows me to capitalize on an increased odds ratio when individual Luftwaffe AC RTB against my orbiting Night Fighters.

Strike Phase: Mission Time + 30:00 to 45:00 minutes
In this phase I path my Bombers to their target cities. I select cities that are in the same region but have significant separation between other target cities. Typically 4-6 target cities are selected for a strike with a approximately a total strike force of 100 AC allocated to each target city. I don’t want my strike to be confused and water down the strike. I have used the Mossy Pathfinders as recommended by many in the past but my results show that… no offense guys but they couldn’t hit a bull elephant in a volkswagon beetle with a hockey stick. They tend to soak off their attacks in small groups some hitting the target and some hitting Aunties Garden. My best results have been from using straight up Line Squadrons with higher Experience and Morale. Perhaps just the unit selection I am using for the Mossy’s but that is what I have found. During this phase my Night Fighters start to get kills as many of the NJG AC are either low on fuel or damaged and must RTB.

Withdraw Phase: Mission Time + 60:00 to 75:00 minutes
In this phase I try to collapse my overall strike and concentrate them into a major withdraw stream. To facilitate this phase I must carefully orchestrate the flight paths of the Stike Groups to and from their individual target city such that they have completed their strikes and return to the main stream path of withdraw in the general formation I want them to exit the region in. I maintain my cap over NJG airfields with my Night Fighters during this phase as this is where I generally yield most of my kills of NJG AC.

Typical results from this strategy net me <5 AC lost and >25 enemy AC destroyed with the target cities taking 30-50% Urban Damage. As I run more strikes and learn more I will update my strategy. So this may not work as well later on in the war as it is at this time. But then once I can field decent long range escort AC I will be able to do more than hurl threats and bad language at the Reich with my Daylight formations and this may help the situation. We will see.

Later,
KayBay


_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 12
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 1:49:46 AM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
Very interesting tactics here. I do wonder a little about the necessity of working so hard top distract the opposition, however, because even without that tactic my RAF bombers get shot down at a pretty low rate, certainly less than their rate of replacement and without amjor paion to their morale -- that is, without much more pain than what they lose by simply flying the missions in the first place.

(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 13
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 2:26:19 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Kriegsspieler,

I see your point but let me point out that as you wage your campaign you will be striking further and further into Germany to hit Urban targets. Remember hitting Urban targets in countries like France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc... have no effect on the game. To glean Terror points you must hit German cities. Early on its pretty easy to do so without much planning. But watch your Morale fall... then see how you do. As your BC units actually engage the enemy it has a deteriorating effect on their Morale which effects many other factors. This will then effects their accuracy and overall effectiveness. Over time you will see a noticable effect to your forces.

I am sure that even so you could continue on to victory without really working on your BC strategy. I mean if the AI is smart enough to win anybody can. But my point I think overall is this. This game represents a huge array of possiblities to wage war in the air on a massive scale. In your journey through this struggle you can encounter a huge assortment of problems, difficulties, disasters and challenges. How you react to each, how you attempt to deal with each makes the fabric of your campaign.

So like the Carpenter of Ole... you could use a screw driver to drive a nail and get it done..... but then what purpose the Hammer or the mind that conceived it? So it goes with the Human Mind. It is the Greatest Computer ever conceived or built. You could win this game by putting it on Auto Pilot and watching Leave it to Beaver...... but then what purpose the Mind the conceived it?

As you continue your campaign you will find that this game is " a lot of work" and it is not easy. It is not meant for the feint of heart or weak willed. To really get the most out of what this game has to offer the Mind you should try really Playing It.

But these are just the thoughts of an ole mountain goat....

Later,
KayBay



_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 14
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 10:21:04 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10291
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
The latest results from my PBEM vs Swift. Results might vary against the AI, most likely more kills for the RAF

Raids against several targets in the Ruhr, Main Force consisted of approx 720 4E bombers seperated into various waves. A total of 15 aircraft (2%) were lost to NFs, flak and written off on landing. In support there were Serrate and Ranger patrols up. The 28 Ranger aircraft achieved 2 kills on landing aircraft, both from the same pilot. 21 Serrate sorties led to 2 contacts (1 AI contact, 1 boozer) which in turn led to one attack and kill.

The Rangers didn't do too well, but I'm still hunting down the LW bases so I'm not too fussed. The main role is to provide a detterant of sorts. The Serrate patrols did OK, the timing was slightly off for the earlier waves so the support arrived too late really.

_____________________________


(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 15
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 10:25:04 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41451
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
I have occasional success with simply adding them to the bomber stream. On good nights, they can take down a dozen nightfighters, and if the one's that go to airfields get lucky (especially against single-engined nightfighters)...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 16
RE: Night Intruders - 10/22/2009 10:27:33 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10291
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I have occasional success with simply adding them to the bomber stream. On good nights, they can take down a dozen nightfighters, and if the one's that go to airfields get lucky (especially against single-engined nightfighters)...


I don't expect too much, that way anything is a bonus. Flying with the stream can work, but I seem to get better results by flying at a different altitude to the bombers. I should probably try flying lower as well, to catch those jazz playing guys

_____________________________


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 17
RE: Night Intruders - 10/26/2009 3:27:32 PM   
Jeldren

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
I do the following.
I change all non Lancaster/Mosquito Bomber units to B-17, B-24, Mosquitos.
I send out a decoy raid out at 19:00. This raid contains all my mosquito bombers.
I sendout several nightfighters to known NI bases and the target of my mosquito
raid. I launch my B-17 and B-24 bombers 2-3 hours later. This raid is also supported
by several night fighters. My last raid contains most Lancasters and RCM night fighters
as decoys. I loose 0-15 planes and get 5-50 kills most of the time.


(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 18
RE: Night Intruders - 10/26/2009 7:31:30 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Jeldren,
Did I read your post correctly? You launch B-17's and B-24's on Night Bombing missions for BC?

Later,
KayBay

_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to Jeldren)
Post #: 19
RE: Night Intruders - 10/26/2009 10:14:11 PM   
Jeldren

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.

(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 20
RE: Night Intruders - 10/26/2009 10:38:45 PM   
Richard III


Posts: 611
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
You can do that ???


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.



(in reply to Jeldren)
Post #: 21
RE: Night Intruders - 11/2/2009 8:05:33 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4141
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You can do that ???


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.





yes, you can do that.
But the American A/C wont carry bigger bombs....they stay with their 500lb bombs........2000lb+4000lb bombs make much nicer holes into the ground (industry, area....)

_____________________________


(in reply to Richard III)
Post #: 22
RE: Night Intruders - 11/3/2009 4:23:44 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Jeldren,
If you are doing this because you are losing a lot of your Night Bombing Aircraft you might want to consider reading my Post in The War Room Forum up top. I describe in great detail how I build and execute a Night Bombing Strike. It is not the only way but it does work well for me.

Typically I lose anywhere from 5:1 to > 10:1 Daylight Bombers to Night Bombers when used in their Traditional Roles early in the war. Most Night Strikes I lose <5 Bombers and kill >30+. I also do 25-50% Urban Damage in each of the cities I strike. I cant even get close to this in my Daylight Strikes until into 44 because I dont have any real long range escort capability until 44 in Northern Europe. So I find that BC is my real destructive force until then.

I am curious as to the results you obtain by using the Daylight Aircraft in the Night Bombing role.
How many cities do you target each strike?

How much Ubran Damage are you doing in each of those cities?

How many Bombers are you typically losing in a nights operations?

Are they being lost to NJG aircraft or are they crashing on the runway while landing?

How many enemy NJG aircraft are you destroying in a nights operations?

The B-17's and B-24's have much more defensive firepower because they were designed to fly Daylight Precision Strategic Bombing Missions. They trade off carrying capacity of ordnance for defensive guns and armor. They perform their Strike in a different manner than the Night Bombing aircraft do. I dont believe that just by placing them into a Night Bombing mission will cause them to deliver their ordnance differently. I did not build this game so I dont know.

Later,
KayBay

_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to wernerpruckner)
Post #: 23
RE: Night Intruders - 11/3/2009 6:14:23 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: swift


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You can do that ???


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.





yes, you can do that.
But the American A/C wont carry bigger bombs....they stay with their 500lb bombs........2000lb+4000lb bombs make much nicer holes into the ground (industry, area....)


I agree with the Swift-meister!

In the old TOH...
The part about changing units to get a few more Mosquito B.nn's, I definitely agree with that. By mid '44 I like having 12 - 16 squadrons of Mossies, I can fly 4 sqdn per day and their loss/sortie are almost non-existant.

TS

(in reply to wernerpruckner)
Post #: 24
RE: Night Intruders - 11/5/2009 10:48:18 AM   
Jeldren

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
I get a much better kill/death ratio at night in 1943. I nearly always get a 3:1 or better ratio at night.
No B-17/B-24 casualties is not an uncommon result. Striling III on the other hand nearly always suffer
several casualties. I can sendout a B-17 raid during a moonlit night and suffer few casualties. Stirling
and Hallifax bombers will get ripped to shreds during a moonlit night.

Deep raids with B-17 , B-24 and mosquitos attract lots of enemy night interceptors. The enemy flak
often kills only axis fighters and no bombers. Ocasionally a night interceptor/flak gunner gets
lucky and I loose a bomber or two. My Lancasters get much less attention and are able to heavily
damage their targets. During a good night my night intruders kill 8-20 night interceptors per
air base targeted.

My Daylight K/D ratio varies alot.


40 : 7 air field in western france with medium/heavy bombers & many escorts.
151:59 same raid in north west germany.
0:3 a typical bombing mission in italy after italian surrender.
22:18 a typical fighter sweep in italy (P-39 and P-40)
48:62 a good raid on the ruhr
8:78 a really bad raid on the ruhr.



< Message edited by Jeldren -- 11/5/2009 1:02:43 PM >

(in reply to TechSgt)
Post #: 25
RE: Night Intruders - 11/5/2009 10:01:47 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6778
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline
I find putting them into the bomber stream works best and then putting a few over AFs I know contain night fighters.
Make sure you put the NIs that patrol airfields at a altitude above the ceiling for the 37mm flak gun or else you risk then getting shot up.
37mm is usually the biggest gun to have to worry about over AFs

(in reply to Jeldren)
Post #: 26
RE: Night Intruders - 11/6/2009 7:43:15 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
Jeldren;

Just a curiousity...

What altitude do you usually send in the B-17's & B-24's?
B-17's flying at 32k should take less flak damage than a Lancaster at 20k.

I wonder about the "night" defensive fire of B-17's as compared to the Lancasters -- in game terms.

This is an interesting idea, since the "original" purpose of night bombing was area targets.
It should require the B-17G/B-24J model with H2S for accuracy... How to get PPF's in BC units?
The effect of spreading the lighter bomb load... The game effect of a 500 lbs in pixel hex vs 2x 1000 lbs?
It would take more B-17/B-24 sorties to deliver the same Halifax/Lancaster tonnage...
To do major damage in area bombing, tonnage-over-time does matter -- Firestorm?

The trade-off would be more experienced pilots in the later months.

TS

(in reply to Jeldren)
Post #: 27
RE: Night Intruders - 11/6/2009 7:49:05 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
Well, I fly the traditional aircraft of BC and I fly them at 10,000 feet and I get a 5:1 to 10:1 Kill / Loss ratio when running Night Bombing Strikes.

Daylight Strikes I get about a 1:1 to 1:2 Kill / Loss ratio when running Daylight Strategic Bombing Strikes utilizing the traditional aircraft and flying at about 20,000 feet.

I dont fly at 30,000+ because that is unrealistic and very Ahistoric. There is also a tremendous decline in accuracy of bombing above 20,000 feet especially early in the war. Historical Daylight Precision Bombing altitudes are 18,000 to 24,000 feet for typical historical strikes. Some specific strikes were flown much lower and not until much later were they flown higher, with some specific exceptions.

For Night Bombing I keep it below 15,000 feet as I like to hit the target not Aunt Bessy's Petunias in the field outside of town. Please check out my thread in The War Room where I have described in great detail how I build and run a Night Bombing Mission. I will be adding more about other types of Missions as I have time. I am also experimenting with this new version as IMHO it is more historically accurate with respect to mission results and events than the original.

Regards,
KayBay

_____________________________

It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to TechSgt)
Post #: 28
RE: Night Intruders - 11/8/2009 2:17:48 PM   
Jeldren

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
I Bomb at maximum altitude with B-17 , B-24 , Mosquitos at night. Lancasters go in at 16k-max altitude depending on the target. Daylight
raids close to the coast fly at 20k. Deep raids fly at 32k altitude.

(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 29
RE: Night Intruders - 11/8/2009 2:42:14 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Well, I fly the traditional aircraft of BC and I fly them at 10,000 feet and I get a 5:1 to 10:1 Kill / Loss ratio when running Night Bombing Strikes.

Daylight Strikes I get about a 1:1 to 1:2 Kill / Loss ratio when running Daylight Strategic Bombing Strikes utilizing the traditional aircraft and flying at about 20,000 feet.

I dont fly at 30,000+ because that is unrealistic and very Ahistoric. There is also a tremendous decline in accuracy of bombing above 20,000 feet especially early in the war. Historical Daylight Precision Bombing altitudes are 18,000 to 24,000 feet for typical historical strikes. Some specific strikes were flown much lower and not until much later were they flown higher, with some specific exceptions. More like 24 to 27,000, they wanted to stay over 20 K as much as they could, as they knew they were into the best preforence range for the LW if under 20 K (for what ever reason, the Raids on Aug 17th, were set for around 18 K and everybody had a fit) (but would change, based on weather/clouds and what nots)

For Night Bombing I keep it below 15,000 feet as I like to hit the target not Aunt Bessy's Petunias in the field outside of town. Please check out my thread in The War Room where I have described in great detail how I build and run a Night Bombing Mission. I will be adding more about other types of Missions as I have time. I am also experimenting with this new version as IMHO it is more historically accurate with respect to mission results and events than the original.

I would try pushing it up to 18-20 K for BC, 15 is just too low, the old joke was the Lancs and Hallies, loved to have the Strilings flying the mission with them, as they knew it was going to be a easy mission, all the Flak and fighters would be down low with the Strilings
Regards,
KayBay


_____________________________


(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Night Intruders Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.170