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RE: Seven Days - 7/28/2010 6:46:20 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Miller is a good sport, as in 1945 it is virtually impossible to score a tactical victory against the main body of the US Fleet (or A main body), and all losses are basically permanent. Once the IJN is done for, the game isn't as fun.

Yes, this is why I would like to see greater VP awarded for Japanese sucesses in late war. For example, an Allied carrier lost in 45 should be worth three or four times the VP than one lost in 42. This would give a Japanese player some incentive.

I just read about the Okinawa campaign which got little press due to events in Europe. But once the dust settlled the political and morale costs of the massive losses hit hard.


good point...makes one wonder how the american public would have felt reading that 100's of thousands of GI's were marching across China and not helping our "bretheren" in the PI...

not criticizing the operation...great job, CR

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RE: Seven Days - 7/28/2010 7:35:35 PM   
Q-Ball


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IMO, there should be some sort of VP adjustment, because unless the Japanese player wins auto-victory, it's pretty much impossible to win the game on VPs in 1945 if you play to the end. The Allies can score too many points from Strat bombing.

Most players know, though, how well or not the respective players did.

In this game, I think Miller made some mistakes early, and got critically behind on his conquest timetable. He settled for the defensive way too early. Since then though seems like he's been a tough customer.



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RE: Seven Days - 7/29/2010 10:59:54 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Before I turn my attention to that activity, I need to get and build coastal bases from which the Allies will engage in strategic bombing of Japan. Foochow, Wenchow, and Ningpo are awfully close to the Home Island.


That's the key to strat bombing IMO. The B-29 is the thouroughbred, but the B-24 is the workhorse. The -29 is a hangar queen in AE. Valauble due to bomb load and defense, but you don't get a lot of long-range missions per month out of one. Getting the -24s in range is really necessary to a successful campaign.


In the Downfall scenario I found I could get a good level of effort from the B29 IFF I didnt fly them at extreme range. I used them against closer targets until I got Formosa and then I put them into Formosa and Nthn PI and their availabilty and OPs losses were reasonable.

Dan, maybe giving them some short ranged milk runs into Canton or HK, or maybe some isolated base, could help their exp & morale grow before committing them to the HI. (And then I'd send in a smashing force, not small numbers)

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RE: Seven Days - 7/31/2010 6:31:33 PM   
Canoerebel


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1/18/45 to 1/25/45
 
SEAC:  The Allies continue pushing to the north and south, with a series of breakthroughs on the 27th - to the south, Alor Star and Khota Bharu fell; to the north, the coastal city of Ningpo fell and the key Japanese interior base at Kanhsien was taken.  The latter was particularly noteworthy because the Japanese garrison was nearly destroyed.  Something like 1,000 infantry and support squads went "poof."

China:  The Allies will continue to push in China, but they now have the bases they need for strategic bombing.  So the main effort switches to building up the airfields at Ningpo, Wenchow, and the two bases to the west.  The Allies will probe for additional bases, partly for the airfields and partly to seek and and destroy pockets of enemy resistance.

Map to follow in next post.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/2/2010 2:50:43 PM >

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RE: Seven Days - 7/31/2010 6:32:27 PM   
Canoerebel


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China in late January 1945.

Note: The Japanese lead is down to 500 points now.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 3:01:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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1/26/45 and 1/27/45
 
There will be a bit of a lull in the action as the Allies bring forward additional troops and begin to consolidate their hold in eastern China.  The lull will not last long and it should end with a bang:

China:  A giant reinforcement convoy just unloaded the following troops at Haiphong:  1st Cavalry Division, 33rd Infantry Division, 6th Infantry Division, 9th Australian Division, 17th Oz Brigade, 25th Oz Brigade, 9th Marines, 766 Tanks, 713 Flame Tanks, plus support and engineers.  That's well over 2000 AV of experienced troops.  They will head by rail to Hengyang, near Changsha, and then by land to the front in China.  Their target is Nanchang, the important base east of Changsha.  Elsewhere, the Allies continue to move on Foochow and Kukong, with other movements intended to secure the LOC.

Carriers:  The Allies are rotating carriers in and out of the main battle group.  Bennington just arrived.  CV Intrepid and CVL Langley just left Capetown.  Several damaged carriers are heading to Capetown.

Task Force 138:  The Allied carrier TFs have been following TF 138 for more than a year now.  Through the heavy fighting in the central and west DEI, the breakout into the South China Sea, the invasion of Hainan Island and coastal China, the back-and-forth reinforcement convoys between the DEI and China, and the big engagements like the recent Battle of Hong Kong.  At this point TF 138 is fatigued and due to rest.  Here's her roster with SYS damage in parentheses:  CA Pensacola (12), CA Quincy II (6), and DDs Bryant (14), Cowell (24), Nicholas (5), Sampson (11), Anderson (10), Dunlap (2), Flusser (4), Selfridge (5), and Norman (12).  This TF never tasted defeat.

San Diego:  For the first time since the opening of the war, the Allies have emptied San Diego of troops. This was my main staging point for troops heading for SWPac.  Since all American troops have been heading to SWPac since the end of the Kuriles invasion back in June '43, this has been a busy port.  Added to the logjam was a chronic shortage of transports - I have lost alot during the game.  But so many, many transports have come on line over the past few months that I've been able to move all the troops to the front.

Points:  The Japanese lead is down to 400 points.  In the WitP game that Miller and I played, the Allies drew even a year earlier (January 1944).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/2/2010 3:06:30 PM >

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 6:30:22 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

San Diego:  For the first time since the opening of the war, the Allies have emptied San Diego of troops. This was my main staging point for troops heading for SWPac.  Since all American troops have been heading to SWPac since the end of the Kuriles invasion back in June '43, this has been a busy port.  Added to the logjam was a chronic shortage of transports - I have lost alot during the game.  But so many, many transports have come on line over the past few months that I've been able to move all the troops to the front.



Just for grins you should look ahead in your arrival queue at the ETO troops you get in later 1945. I don't think you'll get that far, but the totals are pretty amazing. In August 1945 I had begun a huge retro-move of about 200 transports back to the WC to try to haul all that manpower forward. My war ended before it got done, but it would have been a job. Like you, I had lost a LOT of sealift in that, my first game.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 6:52:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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You're right, Bullwinkle.  There will be an abundance.  So, what will I do with them if I reach that point?

I think it will take about two months for the Alleis to build big strategic bombing airbases at Ningpo, Wenchow, and vicinity, and to eradicate pockets of resistance like Foochow, Amoy, Kukong, and (longer term) Canton and Hong Kong.

Once those tasks are complete, what will the Allies do with the huge number of (then) surplus troops in China, plus all the new guys available as Bullwinkle pointed out?

The logical (and most likely) target is Formosa.  The Allies will have nearby airbases and ports so that the operation wouldn't be risky.   It would just be a matter of bringing enough to vanquish the sizeable garrisons there - purely a mathmatical calculation.

If the Allies are feeling more frisky, an invasion of northeastern China or Korea might be a possibility.  This might make sense if it were to dovetail with Russian activation.

At this point I don't plan on an invasion of the Home Islands, but if the game is still going by late summer i may reconsider.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 9:44:35 PM   
vettim89


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If I might be so bold to suggest (not that you need any advice), Tsushima I beleive has a AF SPS of 4. A grab here would allow F4U and F6F to join in the party over the HI. Just a suggestion

< Message edited by vettim89 -- 8/2/2010 9:57:30 PM >


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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 9:55:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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Thanks for the suggestion, Vettim.  I'll take a look at the area in conjunction with what needs I have for fighters to escort strategic bombers.  Partly this is influenced by the availability of the newly upgraded P-51s, which have a range of 25 (IE, the Allies can probably provide escort for strategic bombing when it ramps up in a month or two).

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 10:43:34 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You're right, Bullwinkle.  There will be an abundance.  So, what will I do with them if I reach that point?

I think it will take about two months for the Alleis to build big strategic bombing airbases at Ningpo, Wenchow, and vicinity, and to eradicate pockets of resistance like Foochow, Amoy, Kukong, and (longer term) Canton and Hong Kong.

Once those tasks are complete, what will the Allies do with the huge number of (then) surplus troops in China, plus all the new guys available as Bullwinkle pointed out?

The logical (and most likely) target is Formosa.  The Allies will have nearby airbases and ports so that the operation wouldn't be risky.   It would just be a matter of bringing enough to vanquish the sizeable garrisons there - purely a mathmatical calculation.

If the Allies are feeling more frisky, an invasion of northeastern China or Korea might be a possibility.  This might make sense if it were to dovetail with Russian activation.

At this point I don't plan on an invasion of the Home Islands, but if the game is still going by late summer i may reconsider.


Well, one of the attractive things about scen#2 is that it can go well into 1946 with some neat new weapons for both sides. It might be a good idea to discuss it with Miller and ask him to stick in there and you promise to make an assault on the Japanese mainland and not just sit off shore and pound him. I don't think any of us has seen an AAR with an actual invasion of the mainland. It might make your game fun for both of you again and we all get to lick our chops as you two prepare for a fight to the bitter end.

It certainly will provide a nice learning experience for all of us.


< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/2/2010 10:45:08 PM >


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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 10:49:01 PM   
Canoerebel


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It will be late '45 before the Allies could conceivably be in a position to invade.  Before then I have to see to China and would also want to take Formosa, and then one of the following two (a) Okinawa or (b) the Kuriles and Sikhalin Island.  At that point I would then move on either Hokkaido or Kyushu.

Honestly, though, I don't expect the game to continue that long.  Since this is a navy-dominated game, once you don't have one it just isn't that much fun any longer.  Miller is tenacious and a faithful opponent, but I will understand whenever he reaches the point of conceding.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/2/2010 10:58:28 PM   
Canoerebel


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Here's something I can say with certainty:  Under Scenario Two, any Allied effort that limited strategic bombing bases to Tinian, Saipan, etc. would be doomed to utter failure.  Those islands are WAY too far from Japan to permit effective bombing.

The Allies are going to have to get much closer to Japan in order to have a chance:  Sikhalin Island, Luzon, Formosa, or China.

The quality of Japanese fighters and pilots and the high servicing requirements of B-29s make long-range use an exercise in major frustration for little return.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/3/2010 5:46:20 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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Has anyone done Korea in an AAR? I don't read very many; maybe it would be a first.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/3/2010 6:28:32 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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That cluster of airfields around Shanghai/Ningpo is perfect for B-24/-29/escort placement. Also, Shanghai and Hong Kong are 50+ repair yards, which are nice for repairing the occasional kami hit to your flattops or BBs. So, it might pay off to secure those sooner rather than later.

Korea, although I live in Keijo, looks to me like a strategic dead end.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: Seven Days - 8/3/2010 4:26:29 PM   
HMS Resolution


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

If I might be so bold to suggest (not that you need any advice), Tsushima...


Plus of course the delicious symbolism.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/3/2010 5:12:13 PM   
JohnDillworth


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just look at the Cities and go for the ones with high points and defenses that may have been compromised to support his defense. He probably could not get much out of Java , but Singapore and Manila might be marked down to 1/2 price. After you get your airbases set you might be able to grind down Hong Kong. You should have tons of artillery, lets see if bombardments have changed since the last patch. (begs the question, did you guys upgrade to the latest?)



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RE: Seven Days - 8/3/2010 5:16:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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Yes, we're fully upgraded.

The Allies are moving down the Malay peninsula with the ultimate objective of taking Singapore; from there they will move on to Sumatra; and then, if we're still playing, Java. Currently, I only have about 2000 AV involved in this advance, but I think it's important to keep up some pressure in the region. If I back of completely and permit Miller to get comfortable, his mind would start wandering and he'd come up with some kind of plan that would prove to be an inconvenience.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/6/2010 2:53:06 PM   
Canoerebel


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1/28/45 to 2/10/45

Arg! After taking moderate damage during the Battle of Hong Kong, CV Constellation retired to Samah, taking two more TTs from a sub. At that point, she was heavily damaged, but made port and everything looked "stable" for several weeks...until she up and suddenly sank. This came as shock because her 75 FLT damage remained the same, but someone must have left the sea cocks open.

General Sherman's Gambit: After traveling by train from Madras to Chittagong, thence by land to Siam, then across the jungle to Vietnam, then into China, Gordener's Horse Regiment severed all ties and made a dash into the interior of China west of Shanghai. Thus far the unit has taken two obscure dot hexes (one later recaptured by the Japanese). The unit is sniffing around for weaknesses, scouting for Japanese reinforcements on the move, and hopefully playing havoc with Japanese supply lines.

China: A huge Allied army is gathering at Nanchang, which has a defensive garrison of just five units. I expect this city to fall fairly soon. At that point, the Allies will have stabalized their northern perimeter and can choose the next major target - probably Hangchow near the coast. The Allies have strong armies on the move to Swatow and Foochow. Engineers and base forces are on the way to the big coastal cities (Ningpo and Wenchow) that will serve as strategic bombing bases.

SEAC: The Allies continue to roll down the Malay Peninsula - Georgetown, Khota Bharu and Taipang have fallen. I'm rounding up troops for the (eventual) siege of Singapore and sending them that way.

Carriers: The fleet carriers just finished a trip back to Balikpan to replace lost aircraft, top off the fuel tanks (which were critically low), and provide escort to the next wave of transports heading to China.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/6/2010 4:39:58 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

General Sherman's Gambit

Sherman did not leave any train tracks!

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RE: Seven Days - 8/7/2010 10:36:43 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Arg! After taking moderate damage during the Battle of Hong Kong, CV Constellation retired to Samah, taking two more TTs from a sub. At that point, she was heavily damaged, but made port and everything looked "stable" for several weeks...until she up and suddenly sank. This came as shock because her 75 FLT damage remained the same, but someone must have left the sea cocks open.


I think I am beginning to figure this out (sub on CV carnage). What kind of ASW searching are you doing with your carrier based aircraft?
In my "learning how to train pilots game" against the AI I also figured out that escorts and ASW ship patrols are not effective without aircraft. With aircraft, even in 1942, they can be devastating. Seems the subs always get the first shot at your escorts? Not so if ASW aircraft have sighted them first! I have had subs lurking in the Bass Straits, off Colombo, and off the West Coast. All of them have been sunk by ASW because the ASW aircraft spotted them first!
My carrier task forces are hurting the subs in the Coral see now because they are getting the first shot (all right, except for Saratoga, which seems programmed as a torpedo magnet). So take some of those planes off 100% training and have them search for subs. They will still get experience. Also, when you carrier task forces are going to and from the tip of the spear, put those DB's on 20% ASW.


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RE: Seven Days - 8/9/2010 4:16:38 AM   
BBfanboy


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I have just finished reading all 71 pages of this AAR and all I can say is ...WOW.
It reads like a suspense novel- just when you think things have settled down and are under control - WHAMMO!
Many thanks to Canoerebel for taking the time to share with us.
I haven't yet bought the game and have been reading AARs to get a feel for mechanics and strategies. Tremendously entertaining and informative!

There were many times when I felt CR was sticking his neck out too far, but just as many times he proved that taking a chance can pay big dividends.
I will likely get the game after I finish some upcoming trips.
Hope when the time comes I can find a PBEM opponent who will go gentle on me first time out!


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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 4:51:41 AM   
sfbaytf

 

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Congrats on making it this far. I've been away for a while and just checked back in. Looks like you have things under control.

I'll have to see if there has been patches and changes since I left the scene. There were some questions about allied flak being weak.

Been nice to take a break from it all. Don't know if I'm ready to step back into the madness...

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 3:35:21 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/11/45 to 2/16/45

BBfanboy: Thanks for the comments.

stbaytf: Glad to have you back. Flak still remains awfully weak as best I can tell from this game.

Nanchang: Miller just made a mistake, I think, but I'm not sure it will mean that much. He had the Allies blocked at Nanchang, east of Changsha, and I was bringing up a huge American and British army to attend to matters. That army would have cleared the hex, but it would have taken another week. For some reason, Miller elected to evacuate his army; even more odd, he pulled them out to the southeast further into Allied territory. Perhaps he thought the interior lines were weakly held and that he could disrupt Allied supply lines, but instead he's put his small stack into no-man's-land where they'll be cut off and anhiliated. I doubt he realized that the big Allied army was just about to arrive. Now this army can move right on through Nanchang (which the Allies took on the 16th) and move to Hangchow.

Hangchow: This is an urban hex close to Shanghai. The Allies have a truly massive, mostly western army set to move on this town over the next week or ten days. I think the Allies have enough to take it. From there, I'll probe both Nanking and Shanghai for potential weaknesses there. If either looks promising that will be the next major target. If both look very tough, the huge Allied army in eastern China will probably begin prepping for Formosa.

Ningpo/Wenchow: The Allies have held these key cities for weeks, but engineers are only just now about to arrive. Building of airfields has been slow to this point, but it about to pick up dramatically. I think the Allies will have level seven airfields in a month or six weeks.

Swatow: This base falls to the Allies on the 16th. It (along with Amoy and Foochow, which the Allies are moving on now) are important airfield bases because they will allow the Allies to suppress Japanese arifields on Formosa. This, in turn, will allow Allied convoys to reach Ningpo and is also necessary to permit any Allied invasion of Formosa.

Canton/Hong Kong/Kukong Pocket: As soon as Amoy and Foochow fall, the Allies will shift all these troops to reduce the strong Japanese pocket centered on Canton. This mop up work will be tough, but the cities will be isolated, heavily bombed, and no doubt supplies will become problematic.

China as a Whole: The Allies are very close to acheiving everything targeted in Operation Seven Days, which has been a tremendous success. I'm still a bit uncertain what the next move is - further north in China or Formosa or Korea.

Malaya: The Allies continue to advance down the peninsula. They should near Singapore in about a month.

NoPac: An Allied CL/DD force visited Shikuka and sank about a dozen ships - one TK and a bunch of small escorts. The Allies have had a fairly stout army at Attu Island since the end of the Kuriles campaign in June '43. Those units - about two divisions worth - have been long since 100% prepped for Marcus. I'm sending transports that way to retrieve them. The Allies may invade Marcus or I may use them for some other purpose.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/10/2010 3:39:53 PM >

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 3:36:05 PM   
Canoerebel


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China in mid February 1945:




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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 6:22:34 PM   
Chickenboy


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HEY....

How come Shanghai-Nanking-Hangchow merits a triangle, but Hong Kong-Canton-Kukong merit an ovaloid 'pocket' designation? That's a triangle too!

Here's hoping you can cut off egress of those in the latter 'pocket' and liquidate them in situ. That should yield sizeable VP for your efforts.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 7:03:45 PM   
Q-Ball


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Can you imagine how history would have changed if the Western Allies really did invade China like that? The KMT might have actually stayed in control, with the Red Army becoming a guerilla band. Certainly at the armistice, the KMT would inherit a pile of nice equipment, and maybe some permanent US bases there.

And if this is happening in 1945, don't you think Stalin would object? I bet Uncle Joe invades Manchuria now, not waiting for the Germans to quit.

Interesting what-if, certainly a 500K Western Army in China would have had massive political ramifications

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 7:04:02 PM   
pat.casey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

HEY....

How come Shanghai-Nanking-Hangchow merits a triangle, but Hong Kong-Canton-Kukong merit an ovaloid 'pocket' designation? That's a triangle too!



I'm going to go with:

Shanghai-Nanking-Hangchow is actually, well, triangular in the commonly understood "my mother would call this a triangle" sort of way.

Hong Kong-Canton-Kukong is more of "three points in almost a line".

You'll have to ask Canorebel to be sure though :)

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 8:31:43 PM   
paullus99


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Stalin recognized the Nationalists as the official government of China - pretty much everyone was surprised that Mao was ultimatey able to win after the end of the war.

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RE: Seven Days - 8/10/2010 9:26:25 PM   
pat.casey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Can you imagine how history would have changed if the Western Allies really did invade China like that? The KMT might have actually stayed in control, with the Red Army becoming a guerilla band. Certainly at the armistice, the KMT would inherit a pile of nice equipment, and maybe some permanent US bases there.


I think historically the KMT did inherit a huge pile of war surplus US equipment regardless. They still managed to lose the war though and a lot of that equipment ended up in communist chinese hands.

I actually seem to recall reading that a lot of the guns used by the vietnamese at Dien Bien Phu were, in fact, US WW II 105mm howitzers passed from the KMT -> Red China -> Vietnam.

Anyway, I'm a little dubious about having peripheral bases around the coasts would have materially impacted the war inland in China. Its sort of like after WW I when the allies had a mess of bases on Russian soil to guard "important war material and strategic resources", but the reds still won the revolution.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
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