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Weaponry - 6/13/2002 9:38:00 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		I red the post that was written some months ago about new weapons :)
So I thought to make a poll: which is the most wanted new weapon?
Here you're the choices :) (I summarized ideas of the old post and my ideas)

Megrez
Post #: 1
P.S. - 6/13/2002 9:58:40 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		I saw some interesting rejected weapons :)
I didn't insert them in the poll, but I think there should be a discussion about them.
1) entangler ray (or tanglefoot-ray): maybe it's true that there's not a ray like that... but I know tha FBI is experimenting some anti-revolt weapons based on an entagler foam. That foam is liquid when it's fired against a target, but after a few seconds it becomes more solid and it's also like a glue and entangles the moves of the target.
2) repulsor beam: teorically a graviton gun could have that effect.. but gravitons are only theorical particles for the moment. A tractor-beam it's more realistic: it's only a big electro-magnet :)
And it will be useful for close-combat titans: imagine a close-combat titan which attracts its target quite near to hit it with the other weapons :)

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 2
- 6/29/2002 3:28:36 PM   
Korgmeister

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/17/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		If a few of these weapons could be briefly described, that would be nice.

I have noo friggin idea what a Petra Gun is, for example.

Personally, I defiantely want more close combat weapons, especially ones with special effects.

e.g: A Spear weapon that would be like a Meson weapon - Doesn't do as much damage, but likely to cause critical hits.

A 'whip' weapon especially good at making called shots or trips.

Another weapon concept I'd like to see is energy weapons that can be 'supercharged'. That is, with an option to allow them to be charged with extra PUs, and do more damage (and cause more heat, of course).

_____________________________

Korgmeister - Mad scientist of pessimistic ToS design and unluckiest ToS player in history.

Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 3
- 7/6/2002 7:44:47 PM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		Well...
The weapons are "briefly" described in other previous posts on this forum, most of them on this [URL=http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15968]thread[/URL].
If the link doesn't work this is the web-site: [COLOR=teal]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15968[/COLOR]

When I started this poll I tried to summarize the ideas expressed in those posts, but maybe it's true that a short description would be useful. Anyway I suggest you to read all the original posts.

So, here you are the descriptions:

1) [COLOR=orangered]enhanced old missiles (SRM12 or NM21) or new Short Range Guided Missiles (SRGM3 -5 -7)[/COLOR]: these missiles are developed from the versions you can use in ToS v1.4. They are not so different, so their use is quite intuitive.

2) [COLOR=orangered]mine-layer (you have to lock an hex and walk over it to putdown the mine)[/COLOR]: the mine is visible only to the titan that used the mine-layer to place it on the ground. When another titan walks in the hex where the mine is placed, the mine explodes.

3) [COLOR=orangered]mine launcher or grenade launcher (maybe with nuclear mines or grenades)[/COLOR]: when you shoot with this kind of weapon, it scatters a certain number of mines or grenades (one or more) in a certain area. When an enemy titan walks in the hex where the mine is placed, the mine explodes.

4) [COLOR=orangered]petra gun[/COLOR]: it's a double muzzle cannnon with haevy bore that does 2 shots of 15 points damage (counted as one shot with 30 points damage). The heavy recoil of this weapon forces the jock to make a piloting skill roll after firing it.

5) [COLOR=orangered]sniper weapons[/COLOR]: guns, or energy-weapons with an increased probability to hit the target (so quite easy to make called-shots with).

6) [COLOR=orangered]sandblaster[/COLOR]: short range cannon which makes 1 damage point on every part of the locked titan when it hits its target.

7) [COLOR=orangered]new close combat weapons[/COLOR]: this definition includes a large variety of ideas which have the same purpose (to improve the dog-fight weaponry).
I inserted between brackets the two ones which seemed to me most representative.
- power grip: The grip grasp a body-part and makes 3pts of squeeze damage per second. To change the affected body part you'd have to grab again.
- ion torch: similar to your idea (I'm talking to Korgmeister), it's a close-combat weapon that has got 30% chance of damaging gyros/acts in location hit. As firestorm said: effectively this thing could freeze a titan in place completely. (5 points of damage)
To say the truth it was said on this forum that the new version will have a new close combat weapon (called [COLOR=royalblue]vibro-blade or something similar[/COLOR])... but characteristics of this weapon are unknown for the moment.

8) [COLOR=orangered]smart missiles[/COLOR]: they are seaking for the radiation or the heat of the engine, and they will only hit the location the engine is build in.

9) [COLOR=orangered]EMP pulser[/COLOR]: it's a weapon that emits a radiation that affects electrical devices inside a titan. [COLOR=royalblue]It's one of the new weapons in Warring Suns (the new version of ToS).[/COLOR]

10) [COLOR=orangered]NWM vector[/COLOR]: I discussed about this weapon in a long thread for about a month (Title: Sorry for the delay). Reading your reply to my last post on the forum I noticed you didn't read this post, so I invite you to read that one: here's the [URL=http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20688]link[/URL].
If you don't want to read all that thread you have just to read my reply to your post on the thread that starts with the post titled "Ecco".
Anyway I may describe it as a weapon based on nanomachines (a big "cruise-class" missile, which spreads nanos on its target).
The nanos paralize the target after a while, and, in some cases, they permit to the attacker to gain the control of the target.
But this is a short summary, which don't explain well the way this weapon works and the effects on the target. So it's better if you take a look to my previous posts.


Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 4
- 7/7/2002 9:11:34 AM   
firestorm

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: CA, USA
Status: offline 		you forgot to mention that my ion torch dealt a mere 5 damage. (hey, with something that can stop titans like that, it *has* to have *something* to balance it... and money is almost never an issue...)

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(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 5
- 7/7/2002 9:38:13 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		Sorry for not doing that...
I'm editing my post to insert that.

Meg

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 6
Ah..... - 7/18/2002 4:02:56 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		To all the new users on this forum:
Feel free to express your ideas about weapons on this post.... I mean that if you have ideas about a new weapon or about improved old weapons you should drop a line :)

Meg

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 7
- 7/20/2002 4:40:03 AM   
Thexder

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Moscow, Russia
Status: offline 		Hmm. About grenade launcher. Somebody plz tell me what's the difference between grenade and rocket (in game I mean).

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 8
ok? - 7/20/2002 5:55:28 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		Missiles explode immediately on impact when they hit their target.
I think grenades should be scattered on a hex (or on a certain number of hexes) and they shouldn't explode immediately, but only when a titan walk on those hexes, if they're sensored grenades, or after a certain lapse of time, if they are timed to explode in a certain moment.
So a grenade works in a different way in comparison to a missile.

Meg

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 9
- 7/21/2002 5:22:53 AM   
Thexder

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Moscow, Russia
Status: offline 		Some acid wepons may be useful (rocket with acid warhead, acid spray, etc). And cannons with AP ammo, not explosive. Explosive ammo isn't effective against armor (it's hard to destroy tank with grenade, or even 150mm HE). Ap ammo will pierce throught armor and destroy internals (like meson guns, but much more effective, and shields will not help).

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 10
- 7/21/2002 6:10:01 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Besides being "different", what's the use of an acid weapon in game terms?
AC ammo is AP by default. Not mentioned anywhere, but no need either. AP doesn't necessarily mean it'll reach internals. You want it to be much more effective than mesons?! Everybody wants god weapons nowadays. Doesn't anyone think of the consequences?

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Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 11
- 7/22/2002 2:58:15 AM   
Thexder

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Moscow, Russia
Status: offline 		OK. Let AC have HE ammo (damage is spread but not such big).

If armor is light (<10) acid can leak inside, or after hit acid may damage titan slowly, not instantly like other weapons.

And here is another idea: crionic gun. It will cause cold. If titan's temperature drops below 0 it shot down.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 12
- 7/22/2002 3:29:30 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		That's not the nature of ACs. Missiles spread damage. ACs don't.

Armor points reflect the thickness of armor, not any gaps that may have been drilled in it. Acid doesn't leak in. Next you'll be wanting water to rust internals :)
Keeping tabs on multiple acid hits would be a nightmare to code anyway.

Something similar has already been suggested way back IIRC. Can you imagine the amount of power needed to freeze another titan? And nuclear power plants don't exactly work like that.

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Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 13
- 7/22/2002 4:07:26 AM   
rosary

 

Posts: 1162
Joined: 10/8/2001
From: U.S.A.
Status: offline 		It seems to me that a crionic weapon used against an enemy would just benefit them in a heated firefight. I'd love for someone to cool down my twin teslas. Thanks.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 14
:) - 7/24/2002 8:33:16 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		About the crionic weapon I agree with Rosary and Iceman, but about the acid-ammos' weapon.... well... I think it's interesting.
And I don't think that coding it should be very difficoult.
I saw something similar in other games, but not into sci-fi based games to say the truth.
In Baldur's Gate (which is a fantasy-medieval rpg game) it is possible to equip your character with acid-arrows: when you shoot them to an enemy they make a sudden damage like a normal arrow, but, after a while, at regular intervals of time, the target starts to suffer a constant low damage. (like a "for...next to" interaction I think, but I'm not a programmer and I could have a wrong idea about that weapon)
They are not god-weapons, but they're very nice to use :)

Meg

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 15
- 7/24/2002 11:17:20 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		I did say *multiple* acid hits would be a nightmare to code. Acid hexes do not work with multiple "hits" because of that, but in that case it's ok as it doesn't affect gameplay all that much. But in a weapon, it wouldn't be the case.
Take a little time to think about it and you'll see.

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Iceman

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Post #: 16
- 7/25/2002 9:16:05 PM   
mutt2050

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Missouri,USA
Status: offline 		I can see how it would be an interesting weapon though. Think of what an ammo explosion would do. All that acid rolling around in your internals would be a mess for both game play and programing. I wouldn,t mind seeing an acid cannon similar in play as the flamers, but I don,t see how they would be very effective.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 17
- 7/26/2002 8:55:36 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		You mean it'd be a good weapon for your enemy to have? ;)

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Iceman

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Post #: 18
- 7/27/2002 10:33:37 PM   
Korgmeister

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/17/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		In all honesty, the acid cannon sounds like a gimmicky and impractical weapon.

While it's nice to bring up capabilities that are so far unexplored, the main thing we need to think is: These are weapons, they cause damage.

The acid cannon merely does damage over time rather than directly. Personally, I don't know why I want a weapon that damages the enemy later rather than [B]right now![/B]

Call me impatient, if you will.

_____________________________

Korgmeister - Mad scientist of pessimistic ToS design and unluckiest ToS player in history.

Please note that all comments that any weapon, design, tactic etc are better are: FROM AN ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW and should be recieved in such light

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 19
:) - 8/1/2002 6:43:22 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		Try to run a multi-player session with BG and to struggle against an archer with acid arrows: you will understand why an acid weapon could be so interesting....
About weapons with delayed effects (WwDE).... well.... if you like only weapons with immediate effects I could continue to talk about WwDE's qualities for an entire month and you probably won't admit they're good.
The point is if you like them or if you don't.
I like them.... probably Firestorm the same (also mines are WwDE), and so Thexder...
Some others don't.

Meg:rolleyes:

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 20
- 8/1/2002 10:31:16 PM   
PrinceCorrin

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Bossier City, Louisiana
Status: offline 		The biggest point is probably that an acid weapon would be unreasonably difficult to code, and with the armor used on these titans it would not do enough damage to rival the machine gun. It takes vast pools and submersion of body parts to damage a titan with acid AFAIK in WS. and then it will do only a few points of damage, I've been told.
So an acid gun would have to be huge to even be effective. And a huge weapon that doesn't do a signifigant amount of damage, even if it might over time, would never be used.

And regarding that whole damage over time vs damage NOW argument. The machine gun and small laser can do a lot of damage over time. The AC20 does a great deal of damage NOW. Which would you rather be packing?

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Post #: 21
- 8/1/2002 10:35:08 PM   
mutt2050

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Missouri,USA
Status: offline 		I don't see it as an issue of delayed effects, but more of the dangers of this weapon. If you have acid missles and some one hit you with an AC or masongun hitting the ammo your internals would be covered in acid. Plus what would be the contanor for the delivery system if the acid is powerfull enough to eat through a titans armor (yes I do know some acids will eat through metal but not plastic). The point is does it just break open on impact or does it explode throwing acid every where. It just has to many down sides and variables to be very effective. I say if you want some thing like that maybe we could look in to heat rounds (heat rounds are made to penetrate armor and fire super heated metal in to the inside of the target). Heat rounds could be made to do high internal damage but no external damage.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 22
- 8/2/2002 12:45:45 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		And throw mesons out the window?

Anf megrez, are you talking about acid arrows or poisoned arrows?

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Post #: 23
- 8/2/2002 1:16:42 AM   
mutt2050

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Missouri,USA
Status: offline 		No keep the masons but maybe a small weapon made to do internal damage instead of armor damage. I have used masons but they rarely do any internal damage and run out of ammo before ever doing any damage to the internals.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 24
Thoughts - 8/2/2002 4:30:54 AM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Hi, Im new to boards, but long time ToS player. (had a team rank 6)

Let's get right to it.

Someone said that AP reflects the thickness of armor, not holes that have been drilled into it. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Doesn't the Black Ray Gun drill holes into armor?

About DOT weapons (Damage Over Time).
Just about every weapon does DOT. When creating a ToS, you dont just look at damage, slots, heat, and weight. You also check the Recycle time.(or PUs for energy) (Well, I do at least.) For example, the Autocannon 4 will do less Damage over a give time then a Autocannon 7. It will also make more heat. The reason you take a Autocannon 4 is because of its range/accuracy. DOT weapons arent really useless, but they aren't the badasses of them all either.

About the concerns that acid wont melt titan armor...
Give it little damage, maybe just one point from the warhead that contains the acid hitting the titan. The acid, as I understand it, isn't meant to kill a titan by eroding its armor, but to kill a titan by knocking out its systems. I dont think systems are all made out of titan armor. They are much more sensitive, like a computer. You're trying to take out the chip, not the case.


And why hasn't anyone voted? (save 18 people, other than myself)

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 25
Acid weapon - 8/2/2002 8:54:50 AM   
Megrez

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline 		First of all: The idea about the acid weapon is not mine.
I think Thexder is able to uphold his idea better than I can do.
Anyway It seemed to me very interesting.
You say that probably it's too difficoult to code a weapon like that; maybe it's true, maybe not. I'm not a programmer and I don't know. We should ask directly to VB.
Second: It was in April that I subscribed to this forum and from that time I noticed that on this forum people prefers demolishing comments instead of constructive ones. This guy said something new... I see people that try to prove his idea is wrong: maybe it's true that the actual formulation of his idea is not very good, but the basical concept is good 'cause I saw similar weapons also in other games. As I said we should be more constructive, suggesting things that has to be improved or changed in his initial idea, and not only saying that it's "wrong".

Meg :rolleyes:

P.S.: In Baldur's Gate there are acid arrows :) If I remember well there are also poisoned arrows but they have a different effect.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 26
- 8/2/2002 10:01:35 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Here we go again...
Noone is demolishing anything. We're discussing it. If we wouldn't be discussing it, you'd be wining about noone caring. Sheesh. The fact that other games have similar weapons means squat. This is not just another game. There's a solid "conductive line" that keeps it balanced and as real as you can get. Suggestions that go out of that line have to be debated, and that's what happens. You don't see it that way, it's your prerogative.

And I know there are acid arrows, but what I ASKED was, the effect you're talking about, is it the acid or the poison? Seems like poison to me.

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Iceman

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Post #: 27
- 8/2/2002 10:17:51 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mutt2050
[B]No keep the masons but maybe a small weapon made to do internal damage instead of armor damage. I have used masons but they rarely do any internal damage and run out of ammo before ever doing any damage to the internals. [/B][/QUOTE]

Smaller than the mesons? How will you do that? 1/2 slot? :)
Never had any major problem with the mesons. They're supposed to be used en masse BTW. Single mesons are not effective. And try calling shots to a bodypart, it'll drop in no time. You won't need system damage for anything :)

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Iceman

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Post #: 28
Re: Thoughts - 8/2/2002 10:19:50 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by CrushU
[B]Someone said that AP reflects the thickness of armor, not holes that have been drilled into it. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Doesn't the Black Ray Gun drill holes into armor?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Nope, not in terms of game mechanics.

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Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 29
- 8/2/2002 10:42:19 PM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		hmm...

Technically speaking, AP represents average armor thickness over that body part, yes? So a Black Ray Gun, drilling a hole, would do 10 damage to the average armor thickness... hmm...

heh, thered be a cute weapon... one that removes the bolts from the target's armor... causing it to fall off once you have enough bolts removed... heh, fun, but rather impractical.

(in reply to Megrez)
Post #: 30
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