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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made

 
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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 1:31:14 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Well, then what's the problem?HPS updates the games to modern Status.So what you are basicly saying is that you want a game about those wars with fancy graphics.

Unless you are graphics hore, the HPS games you have are fine.


What ?

Are you really arguing since HPS coved the FIW, AWI and 1812 there is no point in anyone else taking a fresh look at the era ?

HPS has covered WWII in the past ‘n present should all developers scrap anything covering WWII also ..............


According to that mentality we should still be driving Model T’s……………


Save the fan boy crap for someone else............

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 3:23:43 AM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Well, then what's the problem?HPS updates the games to modern Status.So what you are basicly saying is that you want a game about those wars with fancy graphics.

Unless you are graphics hore, the HPS games you have are fine.


What ?

Are you really arguing since HPS coved the FIW, AWI and 1812 there is no point in anyone else taking a fresh look at the era ?

HPS has covered WWII in the past ‘n present should all developers scrap anything covering WWII also ..............


According to that mentality we should still be driving Model T’s……………


Save the fan boy crap for someone else............

I was just stating my opinion.You disagree with my opinion, so you blame it on fan boyism...nice.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/2/2009 3:29:24 AM >


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 5:20:16 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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I would like to see more on the Korean War. For a war of it's nature and size very little has been done on it.

I would also like to see a monster WW3 game done in mid 80s Germany using a WEGO engine. One that pulls out all the stops and includes something like news headlines, politcal decisions and negotiable peaces that determine victory using logical criteria instead of cold lifeless points.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 5:29:24 AM   
ijontichy


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Looking through this thread my favourite suggestions have been:

1) Polish-Soviet war
2) Ottoman conquests
3) Russo-Japanese war

Greco-Persian wars would be nice, too.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 8:30:42 AM   
jackx

 

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An operational/tactical continuous time hybrid for the 18th century. Not too keen on HPS, mainly because - well, hexes are already barely tolerable in battalion level games, as they are too much of an abstraction of critical issues of frontage, smaller base units, and it just gets worse. Not meant to bash those games, it's just that if a new game was made, it ought to offer improvements, and overcome these issues.

I also really wouldn't mind a truly small-scale tactics game, where you control individual soldiers, a la JA2. Just don't make it "patriotic riflemen-hiding-behind-trees-and-rocks" worship, if it's AWI.


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 1:27:40 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jackx

An operational/tactical continuous time hybrid for the 18th century. Not too keen on HPS, mainly because - well, hexes are already barely tolerable in battalion level games, as they are too much of an abstraction of critical issues of frontage, smaller base units, and it just gets worse. Not meant to bash those games, it's just that if a new game was made, it ought to offer improvements, and overcome these issues.

I also really wouldn't mind a truly small-scale tactics game, where you control individual soldiers, a la JA2. Just don't make it "patriotic riflemen-hiding-behind-trees-and-rocks" worship, if it's AWI.



Especially when considering the FIW ,

Early in the conflict British officers refused to adopt the tactics being deployed by the French learned from Canadians and Native America’s and simply massed line troops on many occasions deep in wooded terrain against loosely deployed skirmishes and intern took a beating irregardless of a superior force as seen in the battle of Fort Duquesne.

I would really like to see a fresh look at the colonial wars, and again as you stated drop the hex’s and expand the liberty to deploy a variety of period tacticsTurn base or real time. I also wouldn’t mind seeing the historical fatigue being implemented of just trying to move your troops across such terrain as experienced in the FIW ‘n AWI.

And yes, lets also work on updating the graphics to this decade.......

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 1:38:09 PM   
Toby42


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I Would love to have a Model "T" !!!!

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 3:31:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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What color?

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 4:29:35 PM   
jackx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

[...]

And yes, lets also work on updating the graphics to this decade.......


Yes - but not just for eye candy. Smoke/visibility are an often-neglected part of black powder warfare, large or small scale. Steel Panthers paid more attention to that than any 18th/19th century game that I can think of...

As for the model T - I'd take an 800, but the CGI variant... that one ages better. ;)

< Message edited by jackx -- 9/2/2009 4:30:36 PM >


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 4:40:37 PM   
invernomuto


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A remake for Steel Panther. Maybe with better resolution, graphics and sounds updated to modern standards. If not 3D, better :)




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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 8:27:45 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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The Ottoman-Hapsburg Wars. One of the earlier strategic conflicts involving both decisive land and sea battles.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/2/2009 9:01:18 PM   
RedArgo


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I'd like to see this too. Sort of a combination of North Atlantic '86 and Flashpoint Germany (mabye a little higher level than that.) Or like WITP plus War in Russia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I would also like to see a monster WW3 game done in mid 80s Germany using a WEGO engine. One that pulls out all the stops and includes something like news headlines, politcal decisions and negotiable peaces that determine victory using logical criteria instead of cold lifeless points.


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/3/2009 7:28:47 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I would like to see more on the Korean War. For a war of it's nature and size very little has been done on it.

I would also like to see a monster WW3 game done in mid 80s Germany using a WEGO engine. One that pulls out all the stops and includes something like news headlines, politcal decisions and negotiable peaces that determine victory using logical criteria instead of cold lifeless points.



HOI4 ??



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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 1:45:12 AM   
JRodda

 

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Good post IJonTichy. This is a forum topic that deserves to crop up every now and again.

First of all I would say that I really like Matrix and HPS. They offer some great gaming alternatives to the mainstream PC gaming companies which have been decidedly lackluster these past 6-7 years. Still, however, as some people have mentioned in this forum, with a few notable exceptions Matrix tends to market games on the more well-known and sometimes overdone campaigns and battles.

Anyway, my two cents:

The Campaigns of the latter Roman Empire - As with films and literature, the Roman games seem to concentrate on the the Republic rather than the Empire. I'd love to see some campaigns like Marcus Aurelius' Macromanic Wars, the Crises of the Third Century (Zenobia, Aurelian, the early Goths), Julian's campaigns in Gaul and Persia, and Attila's invasion of the West. These would be ideal for playing on a strategic map then breaking down to tactical battles. Although Rome: Barbarian Invasions did a reasonably good job with it, it has some notable flaws like one basic time period with no period scenarios. Also, it seems with Rome: BI, once the Western Empire gets past the early financial, political, and military crises, it plays out much like the first Rome: Total War game did where you have to capture a set number of provinces before the clock runs out.

Manstein's backhand blow (1943) - Would love to see an operational game on this, Germany's last serious victory of any consequence. I think this third battle of Kharkov was more interesting than the overdone second (1942).

The Solomons Campaign (1942-43)- Although this was done very well in Uncommon Valor, I think there is room for others to try their hand at it. After all, it was the greatest land/sea/air campaign of all time, with the US and Japan more or less at parity.

The Hundred Years War - There were a lot of interesting campaigns in this war, notably the ones with Edward III, Henry V, John of Gaunt, and Joan of Arc. Like the Roman campaigns, this would be a good one for playing on a strategic map then breaking down to a tactical map for the occasional battle.

The Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) - One or two of you have mentioned this one. It was a fascinating land/sea campaign that could have turned out much differently than it did had the Czarist forces had better strategic leadership, and had the Japanese had been a little less lucky.

For World War One, would love to see operational level games on the Brusilov Offensive and Germany's 1918 (Operation 'Michael') offensive. These campaigns were rather fluid and much more interesting than the usual trench warfare and meat grinder battles like Verdun and the Somme.

A strategic Starcraft game - I know some of you wargaming purists are going to wince it this, but I always thought that the Starcraft universe would lend itself very well to a big-scale strategic treatment. Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but I've not been crazy about the grand strategic science fiction games on the market (Galactic Civilizations, Space Empires, Master of Orion, etc).

In closing, I would add that I was delighted to see John Tiller do the Dien Bien Phu game, what with the French-Indochina War being almost totally ignored in the gaming world until now. Although there was an Operation Art of War scenario on the battle of DBP, it was terrible in that the AI was totally incompetent as the Viet Minh.

Cheers, and prog rock on!

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 1:56:09 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
The Hundred Years War - There were a lot of interesting campaigns in this war, notably the ones with Edward III, Henry V, John of Gaunt, and Joan of Arc. Like the Roman campaigns, this would be a good one for playing on a strategic map then breaking down to a tactical map for the occasional battle.


How could I forget that?! Good suggestion. A very forgotten period/war in general. I would like to see films based on these campaigns too.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 2:03:26 AM   
JRodda

 

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Couldn't agree with you more FAsea concerning games and films on the Hundred Years War.  In fact, speaking of films, although Sir Kenneth Branaugh's 'Henry V' was fantastic, I've seen at least three Joan of Arc films over the years and didn't really care for any of them.  Director Luc Besson's most recent attempt, 'The Messenger' with Milla Jovovich, should have been great, but instead was rather weak.  Sighs.    

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 1:08:44 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

The Solomons Campaign (1942-43)- Although this was done very well in Uncommon Valor, I think there is room for others to try their hand at it. After all, it was the greatest land/sea/air campaign of all time, with the US and Japan more or less at parity.


I think that one is overdone. Between Uncommon Valor, the WitP campaigns, the WitP-AE campaign, one Great Naval Battles game and half of a second, and several Carriers at War scenarios, not to mention games like Carrier Strike, Task Force 1942, Ace of the Pacific and so on, there is little here that still needs doing.


I second the strategic/global-level World War III game idea.

I would also like to see strategic-level games about the campaigns of ancient generals like Alexander, Hannibal or Julius Caesar. Or not-so-ancient generals like Belisarius. Or maybe a strategic game covering the Persian invasion(s) of Greece.

Another war that, I think, is sadly underrepresented for gaming is the Thirty Years´ War.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 6:21:47 PM   
JRodda

 

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Hey SireChaos, although I had assumed that WiTP had a Solomons Campaign scenario, I was talking more about a stand along game dedicated specifically to that campaign rather than a scenario in a game of larger scope (like WiTP).  I would certainly consider purchasing a stand-alone Solomons Campaign if one was released. 

Your comment about the Ancient generals game is interesting, in that with the exception of Belisarius, the others you mentioned (Alex, Hannibal, Caesar) have definitely all been overdone.  See my previous post about wanting to see more games on the latter Roman Empire.

I would, however, add that I agree with you about the 30 Years War.  As an aside, that war was so bad and scared the great European powers so much that they embarked on a farcical era of limited war that was maintained for a Century until Napoleon came along and put the world back on track to total war.  BTW, has anyone read Gen. J.F.C Fuller's account of the Thirty Years War in his 'Military History of the Western World'?  In his description of it he displays a hatred of the Protestant cause which is almost spooky!!!    


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 7:38:27 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda

Hey SireChaos, although I had assumed that WiTP had a Solomons Campaign scenario, I was talking more about a stand along game dedicated specifically to that campaign rather than a scenario in a game of larger scope (like WiTP).  I would certainly consider purchasing a stand-alone Solomons Campaign if one was released. 


Uh... Uncommon Valor?

quote:

Your comment about the Ancient generals game is interesting, in that with the exception of Belisarius, the others you mentioned (Alex, Hannibal, Caesar) have definitely all been overdone.  See my previous post about wanting to see more games on the latter Roman Empire.


Alexander and Caesar have the - tactical level - Tin Soldiers games, and Alexander has an add-on to Rome: Total War. Hannibal had a - fairly simplistic - strategic level game in the early 90s. That is all I am aware of.

quote:

I would, however, add that I agree with you about the 30 Years War.  As an aside, that war was so bad and scared the great European powers so much that they embarked on a farcical era of limited war that was maintained for a Century until Napoleon came along and put the world back on track to total war.  BTW, has anyone read Gen. J.F.C Fuller's account of the Thirty Years War in his 'Military History of the Western World'?  In his description of it he displays a hatred of the Protestant cause which is almost spooky!!!


The 30 Years´ War killed between 1/4 and 1/3 of the German population. No ruler could want his tax base (and manpower source) to be reduced like that. Hence the (relatively speaking) more civilized warfare afterwards.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/4/2009 7:49:25 PM   
RyanCrierie


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I'd like to see:

1.) A remake of Steel Panthers by both Matrix and teh SPCAMO group working together -- something that could cover the whole world from 1914 to 2020 in a single game engine and fix the problems of limited slots, and upgrade the graphics from 256 colors to something like 16 million colors.

2.) A Remake of Age of Rifles, with a conversion utility to convert all the old AOR scenarios.

3.) WITP AE: 1.5 in which MORE plane art slots are added, as well as nationalities; plus the hardcoded "rules" are moved outside the EXE into a SCEN030.SCR, etc file which reads like:

10 ON TURN 12, GIVE ALLIES 25% AIRCRAFT SHOOTY BONUS
20 ON TURN 35, GIVE JAPAN 200 TONS OF OIL IF X HAPPENS


(yes, I love basic)

And some expansion to allow the game engine to handle Pre WWII and Post WWII warfare better.

< Message edited by RyanCrierie -- 9/4/2009 7:50:41 PM >


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/5/2009 9:29:05 AM   
jackx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

The 30 Years´ War killed between 1/4 and 1/3 of the German population. No ruler could want his tax base (and manpower source) to be reduced like that. Hence the (relatively speaking) more civilized warfare afterwards.


It's not just the massive costs of war, but also the lack of control over it, IMHO. Wallenstein comes to mind first, as a powerful "warlord" challenging established political authority, andn perhaps even more importantly, as the war progressed, all powers involved finding it ever harder to align political and military aims, as the latter turned mostly into keeping the armies alive/in the field, with the economic/supply situation dictating where you could still, and could no longer, wage war.


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/6/2009 3:07:17 PM   
spellir74


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

What color?


When it comes to Model Ts,

you can have any color you want.


So long as it's black...

(I can't believe it took me 3 days to catch on to that one.)


< Message edited by spellir74 -- 9/6/2009 3:08:10 PM >

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/6/2009 8:59:15 PM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I would like to see more on the Korean War. For a war of it's nature and size very little has been done on it.

I would also like to see a monster WW3 game done in mid 80s Germany using a WEGO engine. One that pulls out all the stops and includes something like news headlines, politcal decisions and negotiable peaces that determine victory using logical criteria instead of cold lifeless points.



HOI4 ??




No thank you. As much as I am a proponent of 'progressive' war-gaming, I think hexes and turns would fit the game just fine.
Besides the HOI engine is set up for years. WW3 would have been fought in a matter of weeks not months or years. And it would be a come as you are war. Production of military hardware was so complex by the 80s that there was no way new weapons could have been produced and shipped to Europe to replace losses. It would have been the most violent expenditure of bloodshed and violence in history. Hundreds of thousands of men and tens of thousands of machines moving against once another at the speed of modern war. There probably would have been thousands of casualties a minute and divisions and corps and armies would have been shattered in hours.

Modern warfare I think is a far too little touched topic for war games. WW2 has been treaded on and worn thin. WW3 in Europe I think is ripe for the picking and would be a good seller if a company would give it the treatment of say a Gary Grigsby War in the East or WitP.
A monster game with say hour turns and 10 KM hexes and a OOB down to battalion/regiment scale, a somewhat abstracted air war, full electronic warfare, a robust political decision model and very detailed stat based equipment.
That would be a war gaming wet dream for me :)

Also, as I noted earlier the Korean War has not been even remotely mined enough. For a conflict of its scale and scope as well as the importance of the nations represented, I think it is a conflict that is also ripe for the picking if a company would just put in the effort.

I also like the idea of a monster Vietnam game. After thinking about it some, I think there is a lot of possibility there. The conflict was far more conventional than most people think and has a natural balance that many conflicts are missing. It also raged on for so many years that there are many potential scenarios that could be covered and a lot of interesting unit options. You have a large-scale air war, helicopter delivered infantry, US Special Forces firebases, the Vietcong, a South Vietnam ally that varied in quality and would provide the US player with some interesting decisions. And in the NVA, you have a counter force that could be historically accurate in the fact that it could take on the US's overwhelming power and eventually win.

Erik or whoever runs the marketing for Matrix I think should start a poll on these forums, give it say 60 days, and heavily advertise the fact that the poll could effect future title development. I think you could many votes and have them represent an accurate picture of what the community wants. It could be helpful to the future decision making of Matrix.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/6/2009 9:11:26 PM   
junk2drive


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When you get to company and below level games people want armour in their games. Post WWII doesn't feature that other than AIW. Korea is similar equipt to WWII but one sided for air and armour. Vietnam gets boring after a few search and destroy missions. There are some great Vietnam stories but hard to make them into interesting game battles. I have played some post WWII battles with various games and the armour is so quick and accurate that it is hard to make a game of it.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 1:02:56 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

When you get to company and below level games people want armour in their games. Post WWII doesn't feature that other than AIW. Korea is similar equipt to WWII but one sided for air and armour. Vietnam gets boring after a few search and destroy missions. There are some great Vietnam stories but hard to make them into interesting game battles. I have played some post WWII battles with various games and the armour is so quick and accurate that it is hard to make a game of it.


I hate to be argumentative and I realize you posted some opinion but I think every point you posted is wrong

There is plenty of armor in post WW2 battles. North Korea and China both fielded T-35/85s in number. The Arab-Israeli wars in particular had armor in great quantity and the battle for the Golan in 1973 was the largest armored battle since WW2. Thinking of Vietnam as a series of search and destroy missions is a fallacy. There were numerous stand up battles and battles of all types, base defense, meeting engagement, ambushes, and interdiction and like you said search and destroy.
Finally, any likely WW3 scenario is going to feature plenty of armor. Probably in greater numbers and density than any WW2 battle. In addition, armor is more deadly but any likely NATO vs WP scenario would have armored forces that were comparable in quantity. At certain points, the Red Army fielded tanks that were superior to NATO tanks and they always have a quantity advantage. That cannot help but make an interest scenario.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 1:28:44 AM   
junk2drive


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I agree with you. I mentioned AIW = Arab Israeli Wars. In Korea the T34s didn't last long with USA airpower and troops were cheaper so they quit using them early on AIUI.

As I also said, Vietnam has some great battles but hard (not impossible) to make into computer games.

I also pointed out that I enjoy WWIII scenarios but those that I have played, the armour is destroyed so quickly and one sided that it is hard to make balbanced gameplay.

Flashpoint Germany for example supposedly does a good job but the scale isn't single tanks.

Yes, just my opinion and glad to see yours. Let's hope for the future ;)


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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 3:56:42 AM   
Capitaine

 

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We really need the remake of Age of Rifles. There's no other game like it. New graphics and terrain system (I'd use contours, rather than slopes), but same basic combat system. Try to hire Norm to do it if you can get him to moonlight from his "sturmadler" gig. We surely wouldn't want them and their nazi drm remaking the thing.

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 5:57:27 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

What color?


When it comes to Model Ts,

you can have any color you want.


So long as it's black...

(I can't believe it took me 3 days to catch on to that one.)



But Earl Sheib will paint it for $ 99.95....



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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 6:01:13 AM   
junk2drive


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I'm old enough to remember $29.95

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RE: computer wargames that ought to be made - 9/7/2009 6:02:55 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I'm old enough to remember $29.95



That's funny. That gravelly old voice that sounded like he'd been sucking paint fumes for 100's of years, he probably smoked too.



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History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to junk2drive)
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