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Petition SSI to allow Matrix to cash in on SPMW

 
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Petition SSI to allow Matrix to cash in on SPMW - 6/6/2002 6:04:42 AM   
MacCready

 

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Just another bright idea to keep SPMW festering...
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- 6/6/2002 6:29:43 AM   
Alby


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Seems to me, a modern spwaw should be possible, because the code used was from sp3 and sp3 had modern warfare in it, got me? Im not that bright though :(
Perhaps they just never had the time or resources to complete it.

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- 6/6/2002 6:35:56 AM   
MacCready

 

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They arent allowed by SSI to make money selling it,ie its not worth thier time.

Let's try and change that,so they'll make it.

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- 6/6/2002 6:51:59 PM   
Warhorse


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I would be interested in making a mod for it, if it weren't for the fact there is NO way now to have normal helicopter routines!! The missile routines all still work, and most everything else I saw, but unfortunately the routine for helicopter levels was lobotomized so we couldn't have spotter planes!:(

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- 6/6/2002 8:22:16 PM   
Guderian

 

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Hmm...can't see a point in having two modern warfare games. We have two, conceptually identical ww2 SP games - apart from major confusion for newbies it changes little. MBT is out on 14th - I hope it will be THE modern SP game (recalling all failed attempts - SP:Europe, SP:Moderna, SP:MW - I keep fingers crossed for SPC's game...)

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- 6/6/2002 11:44:43 PM   
Fallschirmjager


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Im confused about that modern battles game being made....


Do have to own Sp:23or can you dl it for free somewhere?
Then do I have to dl their ww2 mod?
Then after all that do I have to dl their modern battle mod?

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- 6/7/2002 12:03:56 AM   
Guderian

 

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The game is called SP:MBT

- it's for free

- it doesn't require Sp 2, 3 or spww2 or any CDs

- it will be posted on 14th July on Wargamer. Size is 45 MB.

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- 6/7/2002 3:08:25 AM   
MacCready

 

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well graphically SPWAW blows away SPww2v5,

so I'm in favor of a windows friendly(like SPWAW)modern SP game.

Yes i look foward to SP-MBT,but its not windows friendly and anybody with a fast comp or a new version of windows is outa luck...

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- 6/7/2002 7:17:28 PM   
antarctic

 

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[QUOTE]Then do I have to dl their ww2 mod? [/QUOTE]

SPcammo's website...

http://www.wargamer.com/spcammo


This is where SPMBT will be posted as well, next Friday

Antarctic

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Combat Leader is the Future! - 6/7/2002 11:51:47 PM   
Paul Vebber


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At this point there is no point to further development of SP, as the CL engine is moving along slowly but surely...but frankly to get back into the SP code would itself take several months and modern era issues will be dealt with in a far supior way in Combat Leader: Central Front or whatever we call the Cold war module...

The key things that change between WW2 and Modern are related to the information you have at the platoon and company level. The effect of not having the "Borg Hivemind" and realistic restrictions on communications and command and control require substantial rethinking in tactics between German and Russian players in CL:EF and a similarly extreme dichotomy will exist in CL:CF between NATO and WARSAW PACT.

EW will be realistically portrayed at the Tactical level for the first time, as will the extreme frictional effects of Chemical warfare. Nucs will only be portrayed form the point of view that a battlefield may be "warm" ie a tactical nuc was used in the vicinity before the atack and the sort to frictional effects of chemicals will apply, though not as severe).

The role of technological superiority and reliability will also be evident. (as competing factors)

We think that once you see the drastic impact limited situational awareness of the battlefield and playable C2, the limitations of the SP series will have you wondering how you put up with it ;)

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- 6/8/2002 5:55:40 AM   
MacCready

 

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Are you committed to going the distance with CL?

1939-2010

I certainly hope so...

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- 6/8/2002 9:26:11 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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The question is not whether or not they are commited. The questions is if we will buy what they sell.

If what they put out sells like they want they will make more of it.
Its that simple.

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- 6/9/2002 1:49:23 AM   
Grenadier


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If doing 7 major releases and 3 mega campaigns for SPWawW and 3 versions each for War In Russia and Pacific War is not proof we go the distance on anything we do....

Now the question is will the gamers go the distance and support Matrix in the same way we have supported the games

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- 6/9/2002 3:39:51 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Mac is easily my choice for front man for modified tweaked fussed over versions of the original SP2 (which if I am not mistaken is what we all call SP "Modern" by any number of various labels.

If we buy it (Combat Leader), it will produce benefitial ripples. If we don't buy it, well even a total doofus can see Matrix won't be floggin a dead horse (and that means your add ons too).

Combat Leader is the future. Matrix has made this abundantly clear. Asking for someone to twist the arm of SSI to allow Matrix to do what Matrix has no intention of doing seems a trifle bit odd eh.

I have ordered a copy of SP2 (the actual original version, not a tweaked messed with offered for free thing). I am getting it through a vendor that deals in all manner of software (inluding older wargaming favourites).

It won't look as good as Steel Panthers WaW version 7.1
But I ordered it knowing that in advance.
Still at 12 bucks it's not such a bad thing to get a game a lot of us liked.
I suppose I could go and download the free offerings (heck I might yet do that). But considering the volume of people categorically saying this version is more accurate than that version, it's hard to see what option is worth the effort.

I think Combat Leader will be miles ahead of any version of Steel Panthers. It stands to reason that supporting Combat Leader, will ensure it provides the "Modern" crowd with the best Modern game possible, when the Modern Module arrives.

I can see parallels with SP 1 then 2 then 3 and then all of Matrix's version updates with the evolution of Squad Leader actually.
Squad Leader was the most perfect game then they made Coss of Iron and proved you could improve on perfection. They made Crescendo of Doom and showed that anything was possible. GI Anvil of Victory was awesome, but it was clear all the great ideas were not benefiting the whole.

That is what has happened to Steel Panthers I think. To many good ideas that are of no real value to the whole.

Thats why I am waiting for Combat Leader. All the best ideas plus all the ideas that have been waiting, molded into a game made from the beginning to use all of those ideas.

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- 6/9/2002 7:24:52 AM   
MacCready

 

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Les,

I have a several copies of EVERY Steel Panthers cd every produced.

Though I must admit I never bothered to play SP1.



Ohh and did I mention MODS rock!!


If we are at the mercy of sales(a serious drawback of the modular system) then we may never see much if any post ww2 stuff for CL.

So that said there may come a day when were relooking at a modern recoded windows friendly version of SPMW.

Go ahaed call me crazy.


Id like to add that I fully support CL development and I personally will buy everything having to do with CL.

I just want to see CL go to the super bowl and not get knocked out of the playoffs.

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- 6/9/2002 10:30:48 AM   
antarctic

 

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I have a few questions:

1) Is is still possible to get a copy of the SP source code?

2) MacCready: Do you know how to program? (Hint, Hint)

If the answer is yes to both questions. SPMW is a possible option. With a person with the persistence and dedication of MacCready, we should have a copy of SPMW in no time.


Antarctic

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Post #: 16
- 6/9/2002 10:39:12 AM   
MacCready

 

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No coder here,

I know,I'm not worthy.

Do you know what tools(software)are required to do something like that?


I dont think that the source code is availible for public consumption.
They(Matrix)can't just hand it out to anyone.
:((

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Post #: 17
- 6/9/2002 10:55:23 AM   
Huffy


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yes....we will buy it...myself...and about 4 friends of mine are waiting ...patiently.....for CL...but...just...take your time....we will wait ...for a great game.
Huffy

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- 6/9/2002 6:33:21 PM   
antarctic

 

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[QUOTE]Do you know what tools(software)are required to do something like that? [/QUOTE]

As I posted to your other thread, an educated guess as to what language SP was programmed in would be either C or C Plus Plus. They're were the only two decent porgramming languages around then. They still are the only two real, serious programming languages now (However, all Microsoft programmers use Visual Basic, God knows why).
Other tools? probably a few debugging tools, I don't know.
This is the extent of my programming expertise (or lack thereof).

Hope this helps.

Antarctic

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Post #: 19
- 6/9/2002 8:31:33 PM   
Guderian

 

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Actually, to do a game like SPMW one needs a Programmer (that's not that hard to find) who knows the inns and outs of SP code (ouch).

Most home-grown SP mods who went the way of Dodo (Moderna, Europe, ww1, Vietnam) couldn't "bite" SP code deep anough. Add new SHPs, sure, maybe even change icon data in .exe, but that's all.

The only two groups who have ppl capable of seriously modyfing SP code are Matrix and SPC.

And with Matrix, my guesstimate is that we'll have to wait 1,5-2 years before we'll see a modern game - that assuming that Matrix doesn't die in the mean time...

So let's sit back and enjoy SPMBT (assuming it'll maintain SPww2's quality). That's the only "user-friendly" post-ww2 wargame now - between "kid's games" kile Semper Fi and People's General and "land Harpoons" - BCT and Tacops.

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- 6/9/2002 9:31:08 PM   
MacCready

 

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As far as SP-MBT goes,I'm glad I still have my 1998 computer around 233 mhz/win 95 to run it.

It would surely lock up constantly (like spww2)on my primary system.


I know that Matrix are the king coders of SP.

Why do you think I'm trying to change thier minds about it.

Isn't the first installment of combat Leader supposed to be out relativly soon?

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- 6/9/2002 10:05:41 PM   
Paul Vebber


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Frankly even if Matrix dies and we end up doing stuff in our spare time becasue we like to, knowing it will never make any money, WHY ON EARTH would we go back to SP code and not work from the CL code base?

The biggest problem SP had with modern is the fact that modern weapons are so deadly that if you don't model the information flow correctly it becomes a totally whacked out game of "whack an M-1".

With out modeling the fact that the M-1 on the other side of map doesn;t immediatly know to shoot the T-80 the M-1 at the top of the map saw, the increased range and deadliness of modern weapons make modern combat in the SP engine a caricature of the real thing)

Doing SPWaW:Modern at this point would be MORE work for LESS return than going forward from the CL code base.

Combat Leader is a fair bit behind, again becasue we made a bad assumption that the Megacampaign sales to support would come...they did not. SO we are basically in the "do it in your spare time mode anyway with CL..."

TO go back to SP now would mean at least 6 mos "getting back into that code" and in that time CL would easily "catch up".

THere was a window where we had to make a decision to move on to something that had a hope for return on investment. THe support of Mega-Camapigns has trailed off to a trickle, insufficient to support much in the way of future SP:WaW support, let alone what we ad hoped for CL.

We can;t make something out of nothing. We thank those of you that did support us - MC sales did help keep our heads above water. But while it was a life ring to cling to, it didn't let us build a raft with a sail to move ahead as we had hoped.

We made it clear that your support of SP:WaW through MC sales would dictate our future course. We thank those of you that put your money where your mouth is, but not enough did.

We ahve to put our effort into that which we will at least have the potential to try to sell!

Though I still fear that the future of computer wargaming may be semi-pro shareware or givaways, since the ability to make a living making wargames appears to be near an end.

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- 6/9/2002 10:09:48 PM   
Guderian

 

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Well I think it will take about a year to patch CL to state where it satisfies everyone. SpWaW had some 15 patches and still there are complaints.

The mistake Matrix made was to listen to each and every demand - it killed SPMW since everyone wanted MDWs, hostages, etc...

And if you try to make everyone happy, well, you'll make no one happy at the end...

I don't know if you frequent Spww2/Spmbt boards but there also were requests like "put chemical wapons in", or "we want more tanks". For good and bad of it SPC sticks to it's vision and includes player comments only if they are valid - they don't give a **** about "we listen to everyone" sticker.

Oh and BTW I always was surprised by b****g about free games, and I sometimes can't understand ppl who slam SpWaW - hey this game is free after all...

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- 6/9/2002 10:15:32 PM   
Guderian

 

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Can't make a living out of wargames ? Hey, ask Battlefront...

Wargames as commercial product are not dead. Turn-based IGOUGO wargames with DOS-era graphics are dead as commercial products. They're fine as free games - SpWaW and Spww2/SpMbt - but this summer I'll have choice - CL or CM:BB - and the answer is rather simple.

I'm sure many US wargamers can afford to buy 3 MC's, CL, UV, and t-shirt and coffee mug, but for example we Eastern-European Euros are not so spoiled for choice...

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- 6/9/2002 11:48:47 PM   
MacCready

 

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CM:BB ?? What's that?

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- 6/10/2002 12:54:32 AM   
Guderian

 

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Combat Mission: Barbarossa To Berlin, sequel to CM. Ironically, it covers same theatre/period as CL....

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- 6/10/2002 2:07:38 AM   
MacCready

 

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Guderian:

Thanks.

I for one am not completely sold on the whole 3d wargaming thing.

Don't need to see 3d rendering of everything.

I really prefer a view from above.

Did however download the demo of CM from Battlefront.

Maybe they got it right.

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- 6/10/2002 3:03:01 AM   
Paul Vebber


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CL vs CM is like Board games vs miniatures. They get the advantage that it immediately appeals to FPS fans. We'll see if GI'COmbat makes it before we judge that "everything not 3D is dead".

CL will show that 3D isn't everything ;)

Try running more than a couple of companies in CM...You can't tackle the scope of game you can in CL (or SP series for that matter) with CM...

CM has been the best selling game to come along in along time, but how sure are you that they have made up for the 3+ years they have invested in the game? The money form CM may make it a lot easier to work on CM:BB, but they programmed CM "spare time" like most others.

We'll see how CM"BB sells compared to CM...hopefully it will do well, but sequels rarely do as well as the first time around...

"Listening to the customers" certainly didn't kill a modern version of SP:WaW and we did NOT haphazardly incorporated chanes that weren't compatible. The problems were in the code base itself for indows and as such it was easier to start over than to disasseble and reassemble them. Who said we tried to incorporate hostages and stuff in and that killed it...way off the mark Gud... :rolleyes:

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- 6/10/2002 4:26:12 AM   
MacCready

 

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Paul:

Thanks for your input and best wishes for the new Combat Leader format.

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- 6/10/2002 9:33:05 AM   
troopie

 

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Gentlemen,

Matrix is NOT going to make a modern SP. They are too involved in coding Combat Leader. To go back would cost a great deal of time, and then they would have another product they couldn't sell. They are a corporation, and want to make money, not lose it.

Combat Leader will be a native windows product. That is a Good Thing now that Microsquish has stopped supporting MS-Dos. Also it will have even better sound than SPWAW, and that is one of SPWAW's superiorities to SPWW2, and one of the things I miss when playing SPWW2.

As for the modern combat module, Paul, "Etonne' moi." What I hope is that it will not stop with WP/NATO heavy metal and they throw a bone to us COIN types.

And Ilja and Bill never said they were putting hostages, peacekeepers, ABC in SPMW. It was suggested by people. Nuclear and Biological weapons were specifically excluded by the game's scale.

troopie

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