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The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 3:40:34 PM   
Xargun

 

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This thread will be for tips on what to do (and what not to do) for anyone willing to take on the Japanese Economy. Look for me as we get the game and play a few turns...

Xargun
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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 3:44:05 PM   
Mike Solli


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I suspect I'll be spending a lot of time here.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 3:49:49 PM   
n01487477


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Here's something to start you off ... (my draft, so if it's wrong, let me know)

--Damian--





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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 5:11:03 PM   
pad152

 

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One issue I still have with the Japanese industry, you can't tell what things cost, like the cost in resources and Heavy Industry does it take to expand a factory?

How much of the heavy industrial is going ship building, amaments, vehicle & aircraft engine factories?

How do you tell if your economy has anthing to spare (spare heavy industry)?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 5:20:29 PM   
n01487477


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That's just not true Pad152, there are either utils you can use which will tell you exactly (within reason), ... or you can take notes each turn and work it out for yourself turn by turn or at least see the changes.

Or ask Questions ...
Expand a factory: expansion costs 100 supplies per point expansion & 10 hi per point expansion ...

So doubling (expanding) a (0)x80 to (80)x80; costs 80*100 = 8000 supplies & 80*10 = 800 HI.

Then to actually repair it costs an additional 80*1000 = 80000 supplies, which will only occur if the base has more than 10000 supplies, and this repair rate is only 1 point per day.

As for everything else you mention, start calculating, use a util or play the Allies...

--Damian--

 

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 7/27/2009 5:23:08 PM >

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/27/2009 5:45:21 PM   
JuanG


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A quick question while I wait for my glacially slow (~40kbps) download;

I remember reading somewhere during development time that Ship Production for the Japanese was now based on the new Tonnage value, not Durability.

However, both the Manual and the diagram above would indicate that we are still stuck with durability?

Anyone confirm this? And anyone in the know who could explain why such a logical move was not made?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 2:31:38 AM   
n01487477


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Quickly made tool, so JFB's can muck around & understand the production numbers. IT HAS NOTHING to do with the save file, it is a stand alone application.

http://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/Home?pli=1

Let me know if you have issues, or if my quickly done calculations are incorrect.

--Damian--

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 2:51:39 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Quickly made tool, so JFB's can muck around & understand the production numbers. IT HAS NOTHING to do with the save file, it is a stand alone application.

http://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/Home?pli=1

Let me know if you have issues, or if my quickly done calculations are incorrect.

--Damian--



I just used your utility. I know you said it had no viruses, but I noticed that my checking account has been drained, all of my stocks in my Schwab account have been sold and the funds transfered. Is this normal ?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 2:55:38 AM   
n01487477


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Very normal, pity you didn't have much in there to begin with ... 

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 2:57:51 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Very normal, pity you didn't have much in there to begin with ... 



Well, the recession, 3 kids , a wife and a stray cat has made it a bit tough

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 3:01:28 AM   
Mynok


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As long as he didn't get your beer....


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 12:38:06 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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Test Team,

In WITP there was a series of post by players on first turn adjustments - stop building this ship, expand HI here and there, expand vehicles, halt aircraft frames here and convert to these, etc. Is there some basic information you could make available on this that you could share??

Thanks!  

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 1:27:05 PM   
Mike Solli


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In the few hours yesterday I had to gather some info (on ships only so far), I've discovered that the use of the merchant fleet has changed dramatically from WitP.  You start with a whopping 51 APs and 1 LSD.  I haven't done the complete analysis, but you have to do what was done historically and convert xAK to xAK-t (the "t" meaning transport, I presume).  Some were already converted at the start, but I suspect more will have to convert as losses occur.  Not sure about that though.  I'll have some numbers later today.  Oh yeah, there are 909 AK types (including 26 of the -t conversions).  That makes 78 "transport" type ships.  Of course, the xAKs can also ship troops, but not many.....

More to come.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 1:46:26 PM   
Mike Solli


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Another thought came to me in the middle of the night (when I was supposed to be sleeping but thinking about AE).  Port size has become very important.  Specifically, when you send AKs/TKs to pick up the goods, you're ship docking capacity is limited by port size.  Many of the resource/oil/refinery/HI/LI centers are at bases with small ports.  You will need to tailor your TF to fit into that base.  No more 200k TK capacity TFs to Palembang!  Lots of little TFs with limited escorts.  Too many escorts mean not many AK/TKs to haul stuff.  I see more ASW TFs escorting the cargo/tanker TFs.  Without really digging into the escort ship capabilities yet, I see some of these small cargo TFs with a couple of AK/TKs, 1-2 ASW vessels and some AA vessels (depending on location).  Then there's a hefty ASW SC class (CHa-1) that has 8 DC racks, and there are 24 of these ships.  Unfortunately, their endurance is only 1000.  I see them as dedicated ASW vessels assigned to specific ports and used to escort convoys in or out as well as prosecute any sub sightings.  That'll take some work, but they are very nice.  Best of all, they're only 99 tons!

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 2:30:14 PM   
Mynok


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The transport changes are definitely going to dramatically affect the Japanese plans. Sounds like no more 'who cares about another sunk AP' for the Japanese.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 6:27:35 PM   
Mike Solli


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Ok, here's some data on ship hauling capacities. Note that there are some unusual things, such as AKs hauling liquids. 88 xAKs can each haul 300 liquid tons. May come in handy. Also note that some TKs can haul cargo! The 5 largest TKs, Tonan Whalers , can haul 2170 tons of cargo in addition to 15350 tons of liquids. Very nice, but there are only 5 of them so guard them. (I haven't looked at reinforcements for anything, so I have no clue about what's coming yet.)

Take a look at troop transport capabilities. Note that APs make up only 32% of that capacity. Also note that the ability of AKs to haul troops can be increased, but at a substantial cost in cargo capacity.

Also keep in mind that the amount of resources needed to feed the HI and LI centers has increased exponentially. It used to take 1 resource to feed 1 HI factory to produce 1 HI. Now it takes 20 resources (and 2 fuel) to feed 1 HI factory to produce 2 HI. That's 10x what it used to cost. I haven't looked at centers yet to see how that has changed, but, needless to say, it's going to take lots of AKs to feed Japan's industry. No more droves of AKs sitting in port.






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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 6:44:26 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

No more droves of AKs sitting in port.



I'm sure this statement was one of the driving factors in the revision of the production system.

Mike, I'll bet you either always carry a calculator in your pocket, or have one on your watch, don't you?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 6:47:12 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Mike, I'll bet you either always carry a calculator in your pocket, or have one on your watch, don't you?


Sure, doesn't everyone?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 6:51:13 PM   
Mike Solli


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I recall reading that the Japanese diverted a fair percentage of their merchant shipping to enable them to perform many of the early war invasions.  That will definitely happen here.  We're going to have to look at each xAK class to see what conversions are able to be made (0-5 different conversions depending on class) and figure out what can be spared from cargo hauling to perform other functions.  Very interesting.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:06:09 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
No more droves of AKs sitting in port.

Damn right!!
Just to make you tear out even more of your hair, you have to be very careful when you talk about “AK/APs”. There’s 3 different kinds.

An xAK (or xAP) is a typical commercial carrier; it has 2-5 ton cranes, a crew of 30-40, and is in general “commercial” service; cargo ‘trash’ haulers, or passenger ‘slave’ ships. They can carry stuff, but load/unload PAINFULLY slowly unless in a port with “facilities”. Some of these had a ‘deep tank’ or a forepeak tank that carried a liquid cargo (av-gas, kerosene, etc ..)

An AK (AP) is a navalized ship, with 10-15 ton cranes, a crew of maybe 300, integral lighters (LCs), and is designed/converted/constructed to haul military cargoes into harms way. Because of their integral deck facilities, crew, and lighterage, they are “relatively” independent of port size restrictions.

An AKA (APA) is a fully navalized assault transport: 15-40 ton cranes, crew of 340-400, Welling davits, LCI, LCVP, LCM up the wazoo. These are the sharp end of the flaming telephone pole looking to be inserted into the bad people’s … well.

You will need to be very, very, very, very, judicious in your selection of just which types are going to perform what sorts of functions.


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:11:20 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
No more droves of AKs sitting in port.

Damn right!!
Just to make you tear out even more of your hair, you have to be very careful when you talk about “AK/APs”. There’s 3 different kinds.

An xAK (or xAP) is a typical commercial carrier; it has 2-5 ton cranes, a crew of 30-40, and is in general “commercial” service; cargo ‘trash’ haulers, or passenger ‘slave’ ships. They can carry stuff, but load/unload PAINFULLY slowly unless in a port with “facilities”. Some of these had a ‘deep tank’ or a forepeak tank that carried a liquid cargo (av-gas, kerosene, etc ..)

An AK (AP) is a navalized ship, with 10-15 ton cranes, a crew of maybe 300, integral lighters (LCs), and is designed/converted/constructed to haul military cargoes into harms way. Because of their integral deck facilities, crew, and lighterage, they are “relatively” independent of port size restrictions.

An AKA (APA) is a fully navalized assault transport: 15-40 ton cranes, crew of 340-400, Welling davits, LCI, LCVP, LCM up the wazoo. These are the sharp end of the flaming telephone pole looking to be inserted into the bad people’s … well.

You will need to be very, very, very, very, judicious in your selection of just which types are going to perform what sorts of functions.



Thanks! That explains a lot. I've noted the absense of the last two categories for the Japanese at the war's start. That also explains why there is the ability to convert certain xAK classes into AKs.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:12:13 PM   
Mike Solli


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Oh yeah, what's your definiton of "facilities"?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:17:43 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Good sized ports

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:17:58 PM   
Mynok


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Very interesting.....I wonder what they are using for their invasions without AK/AP types.....

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:23:59 PM   
Mike Solli


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There are 0 APs or AKs at the start of the campaign.  You can convert a total of 7 xAKs to AKs (Yusen A Cargo Class) at the start.  Other classes can convert, but not for a few months (at least).  Also note that if you convert from xAK to AK, you lose capacity.   For the Yusen A, your troop-cargo-fuel capacity goes from 480-6010-0 to 385-4808-0.  Again, I haven't looked at reinforcements, so I have no idea what's going on there.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:29:17 PM   
Mynok


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Ya know....the learning curve of this game is going to be greatest in this area of transport, if only because the OOB is so overhauled.


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:30:31 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I recall reading that the Japanese diverted a fair percentage of their merchant shipping to enable them to perform many of the early war invasions.  That will definitely happen here.  We're going to have to look at each xAK class to see what conversions are able to be made (0-5 different conversions depending on class) and figure out what can be spared from cargo hauling to perform other functions.  Very interesting.

And to accommodate that, we retained the “type push” for Japan for the first few months of the war. So, Jap xAKs and xAPs function (with respect to assaulting load/unload rates) in a manner very similar to AK and AP data values.

Also, because of the Japanese utilization and habitability philosophy, Japanese commercial xAKs are easily converted to carry troops (the –t thing) and are easily converted back again for efficient merchant service (I think it only takes a week, for either way).

So Japan gets a poopload of “quasi” AK/APs for a few months. But, as you may have noticed, if they try to use them all for ops, the economy will screech to a halt. So use them well, use them wisely, and convert them back to trash haulers as fast as you can.


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:34:15 PM   
Mike Solli


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Thanks John!

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:36:17 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

And to accommodate that, we retained the “type push” for Japan for the first few months of the war. So, Jap xAKs and xAPs function (with respect to assaulting load/unload rates) in a manner very similar to AK and AP data values.


Hmm..what does this represent historically? Did they really load up these guys with troops and LC?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 7:56:02 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
There are 0 APs or AKs at the start of the campaign.  You can convert a total of 7 xAKs to AKs (Yusen A Cargo Class) at the start.  Other classes can convert, but not for a few months (at least).  Also note that if you convert from xAK to AK, you lose capacity.   For the Yusen A, your troop-cargo-fuel capacity goes from 480-6010-0 to 385-4808-0.  Again, I haven't looked at reinforcements, so I have no idea what's going on there.

Yes, that’s right. There are certain “classes” of Japanese merchant ships (xAKs) that are able to “convert” or upgrade to navalized AK/AP standards. Those classes that can are those classes that actually did. The timing is set so that Japan does not lose all capability when the “magic push” times out.

But, the ships that are “convertible” or upgradeable, are your most valuable resource haulers. Once again, you have a choice. When you navalize a ship, you lose a bit. It’s no longer a trash hauler with a supercargo placing every bale in the most efficient spot.


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