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Sorry for the delay... - 6/2/2002 5:46:17 AM

Megrez

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In the last two weeks I was a little busy and I haven't occasions to write this post :)
But now I'm here :)
I was talking with Bernd some weeks ago on ICQ and I promised him to write this post to explain my ideas about the things I would like to see inside this game in the future...
So, these are my ideas about improvements to this game [remember that they're only personal opinions, and that I suggest them for the eventual "Titans of Steel: Warring Suns II". 'Cause I think (and I want) that the new game will have a sequel in the future.]

First of all:
The AirDrops.
I like very much when the enemies attack me using the airdrops :) But I would like to do the same :)
So I suggest to consent, in a future version of the game, to "buy" the airdrops from the headquarters (the price should depend from the business ability of the team's manager).
Then when you have bought an airdrop you could use it during the battle.
There should be another button on the attack-menu for the airdrops.
If your team is losing a battle, and if you previously bought an airdrop, you could use that button to call for the airdrop.
For example, if your team is composed by 8 members, and you choosed only 4 elements of your team to take part to the battle, when you call for the airdrop you can choose one from the remaining 4 team's members (who are not in game) to take part to the battle.
If you bought two airdrops you can choose 2 members, and so on...
The maximum number of airdrops you can buy is 7 ('cause one of your team's members have to take part to the battle from the beginning).
If all your team's titans are in game you cannot call for airdrops, even if you bought 7 airdrops.
When you press the airdrops' button you have to point out an exe.
The titan will be airdropped in that exe in the next few seconds.
The precision of the airdrops should depend from the electronic warfare ability of the jock of the active titan from which the airdrop was called, 'cause that jock gave the coordinates to the flying-cargo to make the airdrop.
If the jock of the active titan has got a low electronic warfare ability, the airdrop should be a little innacurate, and the titan will be airdropped a little distant from the designed exe.

Second:
New weapons.
There's a great variety of weapons in the game, but it seems to me that there aren't indirect-weapons.
With the term "indirect-weapons" I don't mean the missile-launchers.
I means weapons that don't strike directly the enemy.
When you shoot to an enemy in ToS, all the weapons strike this enemy immediately.
I would like to see weapons as Mine-layers, or as grenade-launchers.
If I understood well, in the new game there will be the possibility to do missions or campaigns: so the game will turn from a tactical game to a strategic/tactical game.
So it will be useful to have the possibility to use this kind of weaponry (in Red Alert I used mine-layers massively).
If you want I will explain better my ideas about these weapons in another post.
Another idea is to develop a weapon that takes the control of an enemy when it strikes that enemy.
I was thinking to missile full of nano-ware machines; when this missile strikes the enemy the nano-machines penetrate in it and, after a while, they take the control of the titan, so you can pilot it also if in its cookpit there is still the enemy-pilot.

Third:
Scuba-battles.
I saw that there's not a scuba-scenary amongst the maps you can choose from.
I think it would be interesting.
Moreover I think it could be interesting to develop titans which are able to combat well in the water-hexes.
I think also there should be the possibility to install scuba-ports instead of jump-ports in a titan.
Scuba-ports should consent to move without penalties in the water, ecc..
It would be perfect to develop some weapons that works only in the water (like torpedoes, or explosive-buoys).

What do you think about these things?
Sorry for my english,
I hope you won't be bothered by this post,

Megrez (Enrico)

Post #: 1

- 6/2/2002 10:33:14 AM

firestorm

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RE: Airdrops:
sounds good, although IMHO it shouldn't be possible for titans w/o JJs to airdrop (note that the AI's airdrops always have JJs). problem with this would be balanceing it out. maybe you can't call where they're dropped, but the game randomly picks a hex out of all the hexes near (w/in say 3 hexes of) all of your own titans in the game?

RE: Wepons:
these have all been suggested. several times. i came up with one that was fired, but [I]intended[I] to miss. it'd be magnetized, so it'd pull the target over if it passed by close enough.

RE: Scuba:
no. i don't like it. the cockpits of the titans are conditioned (after all, how do they keep cool in hell?) but not watertight. would also take lots of programming (bullet hits cockpit, would break glass and drown the jock; as it is it only deals damage). also what about ejections? you really going to launch yourself into the water at however many feet down, with a titan right below you taht's been smashed a bunch? doesn't water conduct electricity? thus wouldn't you be fried when you ejected (unless your titan was undamaged)? and besides, teh other titans should be damaged. i could go on...

keep coming up with ideas man. don't be afraid to post them (even if the scuba one got a bad reception from me).

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- 6/2/2002 9:10:23 PM

Thorgrim

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Airdrops:
Can't do that, money you get in a battle depends on weight relation between both sides. Unless you'd mark the titans to be dropped when choosing your team. But then they'd be dropped wether you want or not.
It is an interesting idea, and it has been asked in the past. But airdrops are supposed to be just a balance factor between human and AI.
BTW, it should be the team's leader to call for the airdrop, not any jock.

New weapons:
Well, campaigns do not make this game any more strategic. They just add a storyline to a series of battles. I don't see minelayers as a big addition to the game. In fact, I don't see them working at all - remember this is not a RTS game. About the nano-machines, IMO it sucks. C'mon, this is a serious game, not a "anything goes" type of game.

Scuba:
Notice that water in ToS is maxed at 3m deep. That's because titans and water don't mix. It increases heat dissipation, and that's about it. Creating underwater scenarios would mean creating a whole new set of weapons, as the current ones cannot be fired under water. And equipment, of course. For this, I suggest getting a submarine game.

Firestorm, cockpits *are* watertight, and you *can* eject in water, even in polar water, acid and lava. Man, I hope Larkin is reading this (grin).

Just my opinion. Like firestorm said, keep'em coming.

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- 6/3/2002 12:31:01 AM

LarkinVB

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I did read it, Iceman :)

In fact ejects in difficult ( or more than difficult ) terrain does
give severe modifiers.

I do regard the eject skill check no only as to escape the titan but the battle. so you get also mods for each enemy titans in you hex and others. Of course I could just dissallow ejects in lava - but isn't it more fun to pass the test ?

The damage a jock gets during ejects is based on the difference of his roll and what he did need to suceed so big lava mods will make it most likely to fail the check and get hurt.

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- 6/3/2002 3:23:44 AM

Thorgrim

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:)

It's just that I just had this battle where I ejected from a titan *totally* immersed in lava and the jock took the huge amount of 11 HPs of damage.

I just don't think that you should be able to eject from titans totally immersed in acid and lava and polar water. Although it's fun to pass the test, isn't it more fun to watch your opponent calling shots at your head and you can't escape? ;)

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:) - 6/3/2002 4:52:53 AM

Megrez

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Tnx for replying :)
Well... to say the truth, when I said "scuba-battles" probably I used the wrong word.
I wasn't meaning battles deep inside the water (anyway they could be interesting too), but battles on the water-surface.
I was meaning a map with more water-hexes (or swamp-hexes) than the terrain-hexes. Like you was in the caribbean sea.... some little islands and a great expanse of the sea.
The titans would be over the water (like now when they walk in water-hexes).
The fact that there are more water-hexes than terrain-hexes could be interesting, 'cause the titans would be quite costantly obstructed in their movements :)
There's already a Hell-scenary: so, why do you think a sea-scenary is so unrealistic? The same for the nano-ware weapon I proposed. :) (by the way.... I didn't say that using that weapon would be easy.... the use of that weapon could be conditioned to some factors which limit its massive use).
Anyway it was an opinion :)
I would like to know which are the improvments you want absolutely to see in a future version :)
Hope you reply,

Meg

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- 6/3/2002 8:05:08 AM

firestorm

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If that's all you ment, that's already possible. Go to the origional tileset, and make river up to 100 and hills/trees down to 0.

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- 6/3/2002 4:53:38 PM

Thorgrim

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It's not *that* easy firestorm. River only set the probability of the existance of a river (stream of water (-3m) hexes), not % of water hexes. You need the Map Editor to build such a map.

About the nano thing, how do you propose to take control of an AI jock? Would it join your team? Cause you can't control only part of an AI team. What if your team was already maxed? Also, with self destruct in WS this would be really nasty.
Besides, what's so realistic about nano-tech used to take control of people?

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- 6/3/2002 6:30:52 PM

LarkinVB

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thorgrim
[B]It's not *that* easy firestorm. River only set the probability of the existance of a river (stream of water (-3m) hexes), not % of water hexes. You need the Map Editor to build such a map. [/B][/QUOTE]

There are also more patches of water if rivers are
there !

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- 6/3/2002 10:59:09 PM

Thorgrim

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Sure, but I was refering to a mostly-water map.

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Tnx - 6/4/2002 12:21:48 AM

Megrez

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Firestorm, I tried that thing, which you suggested to me, in the past month (if I remember well), but it didn't work, basically for the reason described by Thorgrim.
Anyway I like the game in the way it looks like now: I was only talking about an hypothetical future improvement to ToS:WS.
If there will be a later version, maybe it will have some improvements; so, I'm only talking about the features I would like to see in it.
I think "scuba-battles", or better, "sea-battles", could be interesting.
About the nano-ware weapon I think I should explain better my idea:
Medium, Heavy and Assault titans [COLOR=royalblue]"are controlled with the help of a neural bridge, connecting the jock with its machine"[/COLOR]. So it means that these kind of titans are controlled with cerebral impulses. The nano-ware machines don't take control of the mind of the jock inside the titan: they only substitute the cerebral impulses of that jock with the impulses of the jock who fires the "nano-ware missile".
I mean that they make like a radio-link between the titan which fires the weapon and the titan hit by the weapon: while this link is active, the jock who fired the NW missile control the enemy titan instead of its jock.
So:
1) The Nano-Ware Missile doesn't work with all the titans (only with medium, heavy and assault models).
2) It's the jock who fires the weapon the one who control the hit titan; so no jocks are mind-controlled.
3) The jock who takes the control of a titan using the NW-missile probably has got different attributes and abilities from the "owner" of the titan, so he won't be able to pilot well that model and to use its weapons.
4) When you make a scanner-link it lasts only a few time: I was meaning that this kind of "control" lasts only a few time too.
5) Maybe also it could be added a modifier when a "move" or an "attack" is ordered to a titan under-control: so you have to do a skill check.
6) A Missile full of nano-ware machines should be very big, so the titan which uses this kind of weapon should be only able to carry a few ammos (example: max 2 or 3 missiles)
7) Moreover this weapon is very sophisticated, so the missile-launcher (and the ammos too) should be very expensive.
About Firestorm's magnetized mines:
That idea sounds similar to my idea of a grenade-launcher :) So I like it.
But my idea of mine layer is a little different :)

Well... I go to drink a camomile now :) I'm italian and Italy won with Equador 2-0 :) I'm veryyyy happyyyyy

Megrez

P.S.: Did someone already think about to make a poll on this forum about the most-wanted (dreamed) weapon? And, if so, where I can find the post?

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Re: Tnx - 6/4/2002 2:48:40 PM

Thorgrim

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Megrez
[B]P.S.: Did someone already think about to make a poll on this forum about the most-wanted (dreamed) weapon? And, if so, where I can find the post? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, Larkin asked for weapon ideas for WS. It's somewhere way down there, late november / early december I think.

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- 6/4/2002 3:02:11 PM

Thorgrim

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Now, about the rest, :)

Sea-battles, well, depends, there was this map in the early days of the Map Editor, which was an island in the middle of the map, obviously surrounded by water. All titans started in water, and had to reach the vulcano in the island. There were so many skill checks (whenever you moved or turned) that playing the map was an exercise of patience. Playing it with low level jocks was downright impossible.

Nano-ware, they are machines, how do you propose they replace *electrical* impulses? And sending thought patterns over radio links?! And controlling *two* titans at once?! What stops the jock from removing his neural link? Should I go on? ;)

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Re: Re: Tnx - 6/4/2002 3:07:26 PM

Thorgrim

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thorgrim
[B]

Yes, Larkin asked for weapon ideas for WS. It's somewhere way down there, late november / early december I think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Page 6, thread "Desperately missed weapon for ToS:WS" , Nov 7. Have fun :)

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Tnx for the link ;) - 6/5/2002 12:17:54 AM

Megrez

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Well...
I think I have to give a more detailed explanation.
To simplify my arguments I will re-describe the whole concept of the NW-weapon.
I will divide the explanation in some steps, and I will refer to the titan which fires the weapon as the "TITAN A", and to the hit titan as the "TITAN B".
Step 1: The weapon itself.
If I remember well, the maximum weight for a weapon in ToS is 12 tons (the autocannon 20): the NW-missile launcher should have a bigger weight than this one.
And it should occupy 3 slots. The number of the ammos should be very low (I think 3) and the price should be very high. Considering all these parameters, you should notice that, for a titan, it's not a weapon easy to carry (you cannot install it everywhere... maybe only in the cetral torso): and it's not also a decisive weapon ('cause it has got a few ammos only).
Step 2: NW-missiles' targets.
As I told you in another post, it should work well only with Medium, Heavy and Assault titans ('cause they have a neural device working as a man-machine interface, which permits to their jocks to pilot themselves).
Step 3: The Damage.
The NW-missile is very big. It hasn't got an explosive warhead, but it makes a little damage when it impacts the target.
It should be 4 o 5 damage-points. This is the only effect of this weapon on Recon and Light titans.
But on Medium, Heavy and Assault titans it has got a secondary (but important) effect.
Step 4: How the NW-missile works on big titans.
The TITAN A fires the NW-missile on its locked target.
When the NW-missile strikes the target, it releases a multitude of nanoware-machines on it.
These NW_machines penetrate inside the titan and attack its electronic systems.
Mostly the battle computer and the neural device.
The NW-machines attack this devices in two ways: 1) in a mechanic-way, damaging "physically" these devices 2) installing virus-softwares on these systems; viruses which deny or stop the neural connection between the TITAN B and its jock.
So, after a certain period of time from the moment in which the TITAN B is hit, the jock of that titan is forced to do a skill check: if he/she doesn't pass the skill check all these systems will be infected by the NW-machines; I propose that the period of time should be very long (for example 50/60 game-seconds).
To pass the check the jock should have a very high attribute in "Neural Sense", or a very high ability of "electronic warfare".
I think it should be also considered the quality of the battle computer: a better model will have better firewalls ecc.
If the jock pass the skill check, from that moment, at every 50/60 game-seconds, he/she has got to do another time the skill check ('cause the NW-machines are still resident on the TITAN B).
If the TITAN B is hit for 2 or 3 times with the same weapon, I think that it should be reduced the probability to pass the skill check.
If TITAN B's jock doesn't pass the skill check, the NW-machines stops the neural link between the jock and its titan.
So TITAN B is immobilized and it cannot fire with its weapon (but the engine is "on").
Periodically (at every 50/60 game-seconds) TITAN B's jock will be prompted to a skill check to re-gain the control of its titan.
Step 5: TITAN A's jock takes control of TITAN B.
If TITAN A is a Medium, Heavy or Assault titan (with a neural-bridge device) and if TITAN A's jock has got an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%), and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), TITAN A's jock will be able to try to take control of TITAN B.
In fact, after TITAN B is infected by the NW-machines, these machines exploit the internal systems of TITAN B (in particular the battle computer) to establish a link with the TITAN A: if all the requirements I told before are ok, after 20/30 game-seconds from the moment the TITAN B is immobilized, the TITAN A's jock will be prompted to a skill check.
If he/she won't pass nothing will happen, but he/she will be prompted another time after 20/30 game-seconds, and so on...
If he/she passes the skill check, that pilot will gain temporary the control of TITAN B.
There will be a radio-link between the battle computer of TITAN A and the infected computer of TITAN B: similar to the scanner-link that connects two titans of the same team.
The TITAN A-jock's tought-patterns will be sended from TITAN A to TITAN B with this radio link. Maybe Thorgrim don't like this, but it's technically possible :)
So TITAN B will be temporary a member of TITAN A-jock's team.
The neural-link sooner or later should stop, for 2 reasons: 1) the link could interrupt itself like the scanner link 2) TITAN B's jock could re-gain the control of its titan.
But in the meanwhile TITAN B is piloted by TITAN A's jock: and, if in ToS:WS there's the possibility to order the self-destruction of a titan,... well... TITAN A's jock could order also the self-destruction.
To say the truth, apart the 4/5 damage points, this is one of the reason that this weapon could be useful. Another it's the possibility to use TITAN B to fire at its old team's companions.
I hope this time my idea is expressed in a clear way (sorry again for my terrible english).
I know that it could not be appreciated, but it's an opinion :)
And it's not so unrealistic :P
Well... maybe a little....
But there are some other things a little unrealistic in this game, like the "hell-arena" :P Robots fighting in Hell? and you say that NW-machines are unrealistic?
Nahhhhh :)
Well.... maybe NW-missile will remain only an idea inside my mind :) But I like my idea :)

Meg :)

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- 6/5/2002 1:59:14 AM

Peter Yearsley

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A minor change that seems reasonable to me, but probably difficult to implement: when there is a deeply depressed land area right next to a river, if there's an explosive hit in the water hex, the water could overflow into the land hex, converting it (over time) first to swamp, then to, say, a max of 1 metre of water.

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- 6/5/2002 2:52:47 AM

firestorm

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The hell arena isn't nessacarily "hell", it's just somewhere really hot.
The problem I see now with your weapon, is that (as says the manual) Mediums and Heavies (assaults too?) are run [I]partially[/I] through the neural link. They're still controled manually too.
Also, it's hard enough for someone to drive *one* titan at a time, let alone 2. In addition, even if one managed to wrangle one of these things onto a smaller titan, they don't have a neural bridge to collect the brain signals.
No time to continue objecting, sorry... But i think i've explained my self fairly clearly.

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- 6/5/2002 4:45:11 AM

Megrez

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[QUOTE]The problem I see now with your weapon, is that (as says the manual) Mediums and Heavies (assaults too?) are run partially through the neural link. They're still controled manually too. [/QUOTE]

Yes... in fact the jock has got the possibility to re-gain the control of its titan, as I said:

[QUOTE] if he/she doesn't pass the skill check all these systems will be infected by the NW-machines; I propose that the period of time should be very long (for example 50/60 game-seconds).
To pass the check the jock should have a very high attribute in "Neural Sense", or a very high ability of "electronic warfare".
I think it should be also considered the quality of the battle computer: a better model will have better firewalls ecc.
If the jock pass the skill check, from that moment, at every 50/60 game-seconds, he/she has got to do another time the skill check ('cause the NW-machines are still resident on the TITAN B).
If the TITAN B is hit for 2 or 3 times with the same weapon, I think that it should be reduced the probability to pass the skill check..... Periodically (at every 50/60 game-seconds) TITAN B's jock will be prompted to a skill check to re-gain the control of its titan. [/QUOTE]

I was meaning that the jock inside the titan has got the possibility to hinder the nano-machines, 'cause he/she has still got the possibility to use his/her manual controls.

Then you say:
[QUOTE] In addition, even if one managed to wrangle one of these things onto a smaller titan, they don't have a neural bridge to collect the brain signals. [/QUOTE]

And this is true too. In fact I said:
[QUOTE]The NW-missile is very big. It hasn't got an explosive warhead, but it makes a little damage when it impacts the target.
It should be 4 o 5 damage-points. [COLOR=royalblue]This is the only effect of this weapon on Recon and Light titans. [/COLOR]
But on Medium, Heavy and Assault titans it has got a secondary (but important) effect......[/QUOTE]

I was thinking my last post was clear too (but maybe it wasn't) :)

Meg :)

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Post #: 18

- 6/5/2002 8:22:26 AM

firestorm

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hmm, point taken on the first part, but you misunderstood the second part. lemme restate:

Say the attacker is in a light. Lights have no neural bridge. How are teh brain signals picked up to be sent to the defending titan?

Even if you say the wepon won't fit on a light, it isn't true, probably. And if it was, that would be a balance issue. There is a recon design that packs an AC20, and a light that has 2 TBs and 2 S.R.M. 4's.

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Post #: 19

Yes :) - 6/5/2002 9:25:01 PM

Megrez

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You're true; I misunderstood your second argument.

[QUOTE]Say the attacker is in a light. Lights have no neural bridge. How are teh brain signals picked up to be sent to the defending titan? [/QUOTE]

Well... It's true that an attacker in a light titan has not the possibility to reach a radio-neural-link with the infected target.
So, if the attacker is inside a light titan, the only secondary effect of the NW-missile on a major titan (medium, heavy and assault models) is to immobilize it until its jock re-gain the control, 'cause the NW-machines work damaging the target also if there's not a connection with the attacker.

To summarize:
The NW-missile's damaging effects could be divided into a sequence of 3 levels:
1) [COLOR=green]first level[/COLOR]: the immediate impact damage (4 or 5 points of damage).
2) [COLOR=orange]second level[/COLOR]: after 50/60 game seconds, if the target is a medium, heavy or assault titan, it could be immobilized if its jock doesn't pass the skill check.
3) [COLOR=red]third level[/COLOR]: after another 20/30 game seconds, if the attacker is inside a major titan (medium, heavy, or assault) and he/she has got an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%) and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), and if in the meanwhile the hit target is a major titan too previously immobilized by the "infection" of the NW-machines, the attacker could gain the control of the hit titan if he/she passes a skill check.

So there are 4 possible situations (I will call the attacker titan as TITAN A and the the hit titan as TITAN B):
1) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan too: in this case the NW-missile produces only a damage of [COLOR=green]first level[/COLOR].
2) TITAN A is a recon or light titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of [COLOR=green]first level[/COLOR], and eventually also a damage of [COLOR=orange]second level[/COLOR].
3) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a recon or light titan: in this case the NW-missile produces a damage of [COLOR=green]first level[/COLOR].
4) TITAN A is a medium, heavy, or assault titan, and TITAN B is a medium, heavy or assault titan: in this case the NW-missile may produce a damage of [COLOR=green]first level[/COLOR], [COLOR=orange]second level[/COLOR] and [COLOR=red]third level[/COLOR].

As you understood very well, I intended this weapon to be used mainly by major titans.
In fact I proposed some parameters which make this weapon difficoult to be installed on a recon or light titan: anyway, as you said, it's still possible to install it on recon and light models.
But if you do that, the effect of the weapon is lowered.
Well then the NW-missile is a sophisticated weapon for sophisticated targets: the recon and light titans are quite "immune" from it; and they also cannot use it properly.

:) Meg

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 20

- 6/13/2002 5:33:41 PM

mccent

Posts: 6
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i was thinking of the ability to put hover jets under the titan to make it amphibious (or both land and water capable without the chance to fall down):cool: that would make that water battle pretty cool.:) but the hover jets would make it hard to get over mountains...
;)

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 21

- 6/19/2002 6:35:58 AM

mutt2050

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Missouri,USA
Status: offline

Ok Megraz the BIG problem I see with your nano weapon is this.
1> The jock of titan A would have to have the same neural interface system which means he would have to be in a big titan too, but whats worse is he is now spliting his neural interface between 2 titans. This has got to be hard on your head and would most likely cause a lapse in perseption. This would make operating either titan nearly imposible. If it were possible for the jock to operate both titan at the same time he would probably come out of it with half his brains scrambled from the combined sensory imput.
2>Nanotech is very percise and expensive. The cost of such a weapon would be more than the titan it's self. Plus the ammo would cost millions to produce. It is a good base idea it just has too many draw backs to be an effective weapon. You could refine the idea in many was to make it more plausable. Instead of nanos just small robot that burrow into the internals and attack internal systems or perhaps ones that are programed to try and reach the cockpit and take out the jock himself. The latter being very worth while as you would be able to save the titan for salvage. Just remember there are no bad ideas just incomplet ones.

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 22

- 6/19/2002 9:27:07 PM

Thorgrim

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
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Not just that. Nanos would have to create a receiver/demodulator/decoder that would tap into the neural bridge and replace the link to the titan's jock. So why would the jock regain control after some time? Unstable nanos that break apart every so often?! Yeah right. Also, with so advanced tech, why wouldn't the nanos just right out *destroy* the engine or the heat reg or the life support? Or disable all weapons? Nope, nanos are way more powerful than what you're using them for, and you can't discard their power cause it suits you. Another detail, your "light" primary damage, 4 or 5 points, let me remind you that *each* SRM/LRM does 2 points, each NM 1 point, each GM 4 points. So what's so "light" about the NWM's impact damage?!
Seems to me you want some sort of mind control in the game. maybe adding a new race, with telephatic powers? ;) (it's a joke)
BTW, if it's so technically possible to send thought patterns over radio, how much does it cost such a system in Italy nowadays? ehehe

_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 23

Ennesima risposta (questa volta a mutt2050) - 6/20/2002 9:17:26 AM

Megrez

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
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To mutt2050:

Mmmm... Let's roll...

[COLOR=royalblue]Ok Megraz the BIG problem I see with your nano weapon is this.
1> The jock of titan A would have to have the same neural interface system which means he would have to be in a big titan too, but whats worse is he is now spliting his neural interface between 2 titans. This has got to be hard on your head and would most likely cause a lapse in perseption. This would make operating either titan nearly imposible. If it were possible for the jock to operate both titan at the same time he would probably come out of it with half his brains scrambled from the combined sensory imput.[/COLOR]

As I told in my last posts there are many possibilities if you use the NWM vector: one of these possibilities is that titan A (attacker) is a big titan (medium, heavy or assault) and that titan B (hit-titan) is a big titan too.
In this case the NWMs give to titan A's jock the possibility to gain the control of titan B.
You say that this is a very difficoult and dangerous thing... so you think it's impossible.
Yes... you're [COLOR=tomato]partially[/COLOR] true.
It's not easy to gain the control of another titan.
But it's not impossible.
As I wrote in other posts:

[QUOTE]if TITAN A's jock has got an high electronic warfare ability ( > or = 70%), and also a good indirect fire ability ( > or = 50%), TITAN A's jock will be able to try to take control of TITAN B.[/QUOTE]

I was meaning that, if a jock is not mentally prepared to tolerate the neural link, he won't be able to control the other titan (maybe also remaining mentally scrambled for a while).
We could discuss about establishing other limits.... but basically I think these limits I proposed are enough to balance the use of this weapon.
It's also true that is difficoult for a jock to pilot two titans in the same time.
And in fact I wrote:

[QUOTE]it could be added a modifier when a "move" or an "attack" is ordered to a titan under-control: so you have to do a skill check [COLOR=indigo](if you're the jock of titan A)[/COLOR].[/QUOTE]

We can discuss about this... I'm waiting your replies :)

About the other problem:
[COLOR=royalblue]2>Nanotech is very percise and expensive. The cost of such a weapon would be more than the titan it's self. Plus the ammo would cost millions to produce. It is a good base idea it just has too many draw backs to be an effective weapon. You could refine the idea in many was to make it more plausable. Instead of nanos just small robot that burrow into the internals and attack internal systems or perhaps ones that are programed to try and reach the cockpit and take out the jock himself. The latter being very worth while as you would be able to save the titan for salvage. Just remember there are no bad ideas just incomplet ones.[/COLOR]

I never said that nanotech is cheap :) On the contrary I wrote:

[QUOTE]this weapon is very sophisticated, so the missile-launcher (and the ammos too) should be very expensive. [/QUOTE]

I thought it would be useful to have a weapon like this also if it costs more than an assault titan costs itself:
actually the maximum number of jocks in a team is 8, and the maximum number of titan is 16. When you have 8 jocks and 16 titans in your team, and you have also a lot of money, you can replace the old titans, you can dismiss your old jocks and hire new jocks, you can repair the battle-damages, but you cannot expand your team.
So, sooner or later, you will start to accumulate money. And you cannot use it to overwhelm your enemies. This is good for a duel-like battle, 'cause the battle have to be balanced.
But if you think to a military campaign you have to admit that it really sucks if you cannot use all your money to overtake your opponents.
I proposed this weapon for the sequel of ToS:WS. They say that the new game has got kind of campaignes; so, if one day there will be a sequel, that sequel probably will have some more strategic aspects and this weapon should be very suitable.
About the weapons that damage internal systems I can say that sometimes ago it was proposed an EMP pulser, an entangler ray (for gyros and actuators), and also a smart missile able to hit the place where the engine is located.
Moreover in ToS v1.4 there's already the neutron blaster which affects the jock of the hit-titan. So I think that there are already good weapon-concepts that fit better for that kind of damages, and, if I change my idea in something else, the NWMs wouldn't have any reason to exist.

Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 24

- 6/20/2002 4:29:19 PM

Thorgrim

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
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About excess money, it's only in excess if your team is static in terms of titans. If you keep playing the same titans over and over again, you only need to worry about repairs, and replacing the occasional titan(s) lost in battle. But some players might want to change titans once in a while, and the game has to consider that. The database has 150 titans, 30 in each category. You can have up to 450. Experimenting is part of the fun.
Besides, v1.4 is know to be somewhat unbalanced in terms of money.

_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 25

- 6/20/2002 8:20:12 PM

mutt2050

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Missouri,USA
Status: offline

I never said it was impossible, I only said it was not practical. Such a weapon is a waste of capital if you look in to what it takes to make a nano. Each missle would cost millions and the benifits are to lacking along with the dangers to your own jock and the draw backs of such a weapon. I did say it was a good starting point for a weapon but it is too high tech for effective use on a battle field. It may be a good idea as a covert ops weapon, use it to steel mechs shut down at a base. In battle you have to remember the golden rule K.I.S.S. " Keep It Simple Stupid". Keep thinking them up though this is all apart of the fun of this game too.

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 26

To Iceman ;) - 6/20/2002 10:01:31 PM

Megrez

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
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To Iceman:

[QUOTE]Nanos would have to create a receiver/demodulator/decoder that would tap into the neural bridge and replace the link to the titan's jock. So why would the jock regain control after some time? Unstable nanos that break apart every so often?! Yeah right.[/QUOTE]

No...
The nanos aren't unstable.
The fact is that big titans (medium, heavy and assault) are partially controlled with the neural bridge, but they have also manual controls (as Firestorm maintained in an previous post).
The jock is not dead (and he/she isn't mind-controlled), and he/she is still inside the cockpit.
I don't think that he/she is powerless in the face of his/her defeat.
Probably the jock will try to re-gain the controls of his/her titan before it's too late, using the manual controls to bypass the battle-computer and the neural-bridge device (depending from his/her abilities and attributes).
Moreover if the battle-computer is very good (I mean a top quality computer) it will have some internal defenses like firewalls or antivirus (maybe also specific anti-nanos defenses).
Apart that, the radio link between the attacker titan and the infected one could be obstructed by natural obstacles (did it never happen to you to be with your cell-phone near to a hill or to a mountain? Do you know what happens usually?).
Due to these reasons I think that the jock of the infected titan should be allowed to try to re-gain the controls.
So I proposed a periodical skill-check (every 50-60 seconds of game-time).
Maybe my proposal it's much simplistic, but we can discuss about this if you have other ideas. :)

[QUOTE]Also, with so advanced tech, why wouldn't the nanos just right out *destroy* the engine or the heat reg or the life support? Or disable all weapons?[/QUOTE]

'Cause the purpose of this weapon is not to destroy the enemy; there are better and cheaper weapons to do that.
This weapon is designed to obtain the control of an enemy titan (medium, heavy or assault), which is a more strategical purpose.

[QUOTE]Nope, nanos are way more powerful than what you're using them for, and you can't discard their power cause it suits you.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's true, so if you want we can also discuss about other weapons based on nanos (with other purposes).

[QUOTE]Another detail, your "light" primary damage, 4 or 5 points, let me remind you that *each* SRM/LRM does 2 points, each NM 1 point, each GM 4 points. So what's so "light" about the NWM's impact damage?![/QUOTE]

Well... The missile which transports the nanos (from this moment I will call it as "vector") is not small: I was thinking about a "cruise"-class (or "tomahawk"-class) missile.
I think that SRM, LRM, NM and also GM are smaller than this type of missile (I think to them as "maverick"-class or "hellfire"-class missiles); but they have an explosive war-head so they make some points of damage.
A "cruise"-class missile filled with an explosive war-head would produce an higher damage (like an autocannon 20 I think).
But the NWM-vector hasn't got a warhead. So it cannot produces such an high damage. But it's a big missile and when it impacts its target it produces a sort of light damage (I thought like a punch of a light or medium titan).
Maybe it's not a "light" damage if you compare it to the damages produced by other types of missiles in ToS, but you have to admit that a "cruise"-class missile with an explosive war-head should make more than 4-5 points of damage; in addition to this, NWM-vector launcher has got low ammos (I proposed 2 or 3), so it cannot strike the enemy-titans many times as the SRM or LRM.....
Moreover 4 or 5 points of damage are enough to justify a penetration inside the armour of the hit-titan.

[QUOTE]Seems to me you want some sort of mind control in the game. maybe adding a new race, with telephatic powers? (it's a joke)[/QUOTE]

I don't believe in telephaty... sorry :p

[QUOTE]BTW, if it's so technically possible to send thought patterns over radio, how much does it cost such a system in Italy nowadays? ehehe[/QUOTE]

Well... Probably it would cost a capital.... But to say the truth also a nuclear engine should cost a capital (and in ToS titans are equipped with nuclear engines).

[QUOTE]About excess money, it's only in excess if your team is static in terms of titans. If you keep playing the same titans over and over again, you only need to worry about repairs, and replacing the occasional titan(s) lost in battle. But some players might want to change titans once in a while, and the game has to consider that. The database has 150 titans, 30 in each category. You can have up to 450. Experimenting is part of the fun.
Besides, v1.4 is know to be somewhat unbalanced in terms of money.[/QUOTE]

That's true... but I think that another way to use the money should be to acquire extravagant weapon-systems or expensive equipping.... it's only an idea which is different from yours :)

Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 27

- 6/21/2002 7:46:28 AM

Thorgrim

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
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Ok, I don't want to be blunt, but your weapon is useless. Check the neural bridge. It helps the jock in *piloting* the titan, it has no effect in its *weapons*. So you can't use the controlled titan's weapons. What can you do with it then? Besides cheating (swimming in a pool of lava or acid, running off a cliff, fleeing the battle), nothing! So you're using a titan that costs zillions to *temporarily* freeze an enemy, a limited (low) number of times, with no other use in battle - a dead weight actually. More, to program such a weapon would take more time than what it would be worth in terms of adding to the game.

Oh, and I found your cell-phone example amusing. You mean you, controlling my titan, will lead it around a mountain so *I* can regain control?! Nice talking to you Megrez.

_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 28

reply 1 - 6/21/2002 10:40:14 PM

Megrez

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline

[COLOR=crimson]To Iceman:[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Ok, I don't want to be blunt, but your weapon is useless. Check the neural bridge. It helps the jock in *piloting* the titan, it has no effect in its *weapons*. So you can't use the controlled titan's weapons.[/QUOTE]

You say that.... but I wrote different things :p
In fact "my" NWMs infect both the neural bridge and the battle computer: and the battle computer is used to point all the weapons.
I don't know what are the features of "your" NWMs... but "my" NWMs permit the attacker-titan also to obtain the control of the weapons.
I always talked about "[COLOR=sandybrown]to gain the controls[/COLOR]" not only "to pilot".
So an infected titan could be used also to fire at its team-mates.
Next time, when you give a critique of my ideas, read better what I wrote down ;)
Apart that you write:

[QUOTE]What can you do with it then? Besides cheating (swimming in a pool of lava or acid, running off a cliff, fleeing the battle), nothing![/QUOTE]

Well... also if I cannot use the weapons there are other things that I can do... not only the things you're remembering me ;)
Example:
1) I can order to the infected titan to jump, and then I could leave it fluctuating in the sky until its jump-ports finish their charge. So the titan will collapse to the surface.
2) I can eject the enemy jock
3) I can order to the infected titan the self-destruction (if the new version of ToS:WS will have this improvement)
So, also without the use of the infected-titan's weapons, NWMs are quite lethal.

You continue:

[QUOTE]So you're using a titan that costs zillions to *temporarily* freeze an enemy, a limited (low) number of times, with no other use in battle - a dead weight actually. [/QUOTE]

That's not true :) the only case in which NWMs "freeze" the hit-titan is when the attacker titan is a recon or light titan, and the hit-titan is a medium, heavy or assault titan.
Moreover NWMs don't act only a limited number of times.... never said that :)
On the contrary I wrote:

[QUOTE]If the jock pass the skill check, from that moment, at every 50/60 game-seconds, he/she has got to do another time the skill check ('cause the NW-machines are still resident on the TITAN B).[/QUOTE]

I was meaning that, also if the jock re-gain the control of its titan, until the battle is finished and damaged titans are repaired at the factory, it's impossible to remove the NWMs. So they remain active until the end of the battle.
And at every 50/60 game-seconds the jock have to do a skill-check to keep the control of his/her titan.
So, try to imagine about a recon titan which has got the NWM-vector and a close combat weapon (like a flamethrower), and to an assault titan full of powerfull weapons and with an heavy armour.
The recon will strike the assault with the NWM-vector, and then it has to hold out against the assault until the NWMs freeze it (20/30 seconds of game-time). When the assault is "frozen", the recon starts to make called-shots to the assault's cockpit with the flamethrower, killing the enemy-jock: and it wins the battle :)
So my weapon permits to a recon titan to beat and assault model if it is used properly: it doesn't seem to me my weapon is so useless :)

You say also:

[QUOTE]More, to program such a weapon would take more time than what it would be worth in terms of adding to the game.[/QUOTE]

Mmm.. maybe it's true that to program NWM's vector it would take a lot of time, but I proposed it for the sequel of ToS:WS. I think they have all the time they need :) And maybe my weapon would add some "spicy" to this game (also if you don't think so) :)

And about the other thing:

[QUOTE]Oh, and I found your cell-phone example amusing. You mean you, controlling my titan, will lead it around a mountain so *I* can regain control?! Nice talking to you Megrez.[/QUOTE]

With that example I made in my last post I was simply meaning that if you're controlling another titan with NWMs, and somebody attacks your titan forcing you to escape, the connection between your titan and the infected one could be interrupted if you move behind a mountain or a big hill: but there other reasons which permit to the jock of the infected titan to re-gain the control of its machine; this is to balance the offensive potential of this weapon, which is very high (also if you don't think so).

Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 29

reply 2 - 6/21/2002 10:42:14 PM

Megrez

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Via Carrubbio 115/D, Monselice (PD), C.A.P. 35043
Status: offline

[COLOR=darkblue]To mutt2050:[/COLOR]
If you read this last reply to Iceman probably you will understand why the NWMs are not so useless during a battle, and why their benefits overtake the disadvantages.
Moreover my weapon is not so difficoult to use: if it is installed on a titan, the only thing that a joke has to do is to fire it to the target. NWMs do all the work :)
Apart that I don't believe in that "golden rule" :)
It's quite controversial about games, and it doesn't mean anything in the real world (ask to O.T.A.N.'s headquarters and to DARPA's bureau too :) )

Megrez

(in reply to Megrez)

Post #: 30