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Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 2:20:25 PM   
ithuriel2


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According to the manual, 9+ Courts Level eliminates waste in any province. Am I right in thinking that 7+ Culture(Arts) Level achieves the same result ? The manual does not seem to be precisely clear on this issue.
It seems to me that it is more advantageous to develop Culture than Courts, yet the manual lays more emphasis on Courts development.


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Louis

"One might as well try to charge through a wall."
- Napoleon, on St Helena, regarding the British Infantry
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RE: Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 3:20:03 PM   
JoePirulo

 

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From the appendix, rule 10.6

More Courts Lower Waste
: Core provinces with 5 or more Courts, and conquered provinces with 7 or more Courts, do not cause Waste either, though they do suffer its effects.

So, if a nation possesses the same 40 provinces as above, but 5 are core • provinces with 5 or more Courts, only 35 provinces count towards the total, providing Waste of ((40-35)x2%)=10% in core provinces and ((40-35)x2%)=20% in conquered/protected provinces.
More Courts and Culture Exempts from Waste
: 7 or more Courts, or 5 or more Culture, in a province reduces that province’s Waste by -2% (from 4% to 2% for conquered/protected provinces, and from 2% to 0% for core provinces). 9 or more Courts, or 7 or more Culture, in any province reduces waste to 0%.
So, even with Waste of 10% in core provinces and 20% in conquered/• protected provinces, core provinces with 7 or more Courts neither contribute towards Waste nor suffer its effects, and likewise for conquered/protected provinces with 9 or more Courts. Note that provinces with high levels of Culture still cause Waste, even though the effects are mitigated.


I think courts are better, because provinces with 5 courts don´t count for the 30 provinces limit.

Max.

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RE: Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 3:20:18 PM   
morganbj


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Five courts is the magic number you should strive for in as many of your provinces as you can, if you're an expansionist country.  You get to have 30 non-protectorate provinces with no risk of waste.  Once you get 31, you'll see waste unless you have at least one province at 5 court level.  Building to level 5 courts in your provinces is easier than 7 culture.

The advantage of having 7 culture is that THAT province will not experience any waste, no matter how much waste you're seeing nationally.  So, if Russia is at 40% waste, but can get Moscow up to 7 culture, then the waste will come from the other provinces.  So, you still get the waste, you just get it elsewhere.

Now, here's the coup de gras.  High levels of culture do not act to reduce the national waste level, only courts do that.  So, while you're preventing those "cultured" provinces from contributing to waste with their own goods, the provicne is actually still adding to the national waste level of 2% per province if its court level is below 5.

That's why building courts is generally a better strategy.  But, if you just want to keep your high producing provinces safe, because you are expanding faster than you can build up to 5 courts in several provinces, then stack up the culture in those really good provinces that give you a lot of stuff.

Honestly, I never do that.  I always just build courts like crazy until they are at 5.  Then I shift the emphasis to culture.  I always play very long games.  Shorter games require more creative development schemes, depending on the country, and if you achieve Empire status, etc.

(in reply to ithuriel2)
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RE: Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 6:08:09 PM   
ithuriel2


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Sorry guys, but it is still as clear as mud to me.

"Five courts is the magic number you should strive for in as many of your provinces as you can, if you're an expansionist country. You get to have 30 non-protectorate provinces with no risk of waste. Once you get 31, you'll see waste unless you have at least one province at 5 court level. Building to level 5 courts in your provinces is easier than 7 culture."

O.K. Let me see if I have understood correctly. Just need ONE province at 5 Court level to avoid waste in 30 non-protectorate provinces ?

However - Re : Manual Page 15 -
"More Courts and Culture Exempts from Waste: 7 or more Courts, or 5 or more Culture, in a province reduces that province’s Waste by -2% (from 4% to 2% for conquered/protected provinces, and from 2% to 0% for core provinces). 9 or more Courts, or 7 or more Culture, in any province reduces waste to 0%."

I suppose it is a matter of interpretation but the quote from the manual (above) indicates one needs 9 or more Courts or 7 or more culture in ANY province to reduce waste to 0% - does this mean by "any province" all 30 non- protectorate provinces ?

Have to be honest, excessive mathematical computations within a game tend to spoil the fun of the game. I play for relaxation, to mentally switch off from onerous work responsibilities.



< Message edited by ithuriel2 -- 7/13/2009 6:15:19 PM >


_____________________________

Louis

"One might as well try to charge through a wall."
- Napoleon, on St Helena, regarding the British Infantry

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 4
RE: Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 6:13:16 PM   
ithuriel2


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Developing Courts and Culture uses up valuable textile resources needed for developing Barracks, Roads, and various units. I wonder if there is to much emphasis upon use textile resources, as it it not easy to build up a reasonable stockpile?

Perhaps the greater use of money for development would be more appropriate and balance things out more.

_____________________________

Louis

"One might as well try to charge through a wall."
- Napoleon, on St Helena, regarding the British Infantry

(in reply to ithuriel2)
Post #: 5
RE: Waste elimination - 7/13/2009 8:46:53 PM   
morganbj


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You can have 30 non-prot provinces with less than 5 courts and you'll see no waste.  At 31, you'll see 2% waste.  At 32, it becomes 4%.

Now if you have 32, and 5 courts in two of those, you still have only 30 that that count against you, so your waste drops to zero.

Now, let's assume that you've developed culture to the appropriate level in those 2 provinces, instead of courts.  Those TWO provinces will see no waste to their own production, but the other 30 will still see 4%, because you still have 2 more than 30 without the requsite number of courts.  That's why courts are better to develop than culture.  I ALWAYS develop courts first.  That's the ONLY way to avoid waste in countries that are larger than 30 provinces.  France almost always gets to 30 very early in the 1803 and later starting games.


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RE: Waste elimination - 7/14/2009 1:18:57 AM   
ithuriel2


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Ah ha ! Your explanation makes sense.
Yes - I've tried several scenarios as France, and the last time ran into awful waste problems due to a too rapid expansion., which is why it is such an issue right now.
The last game I was in constant war, not always of my own choosing, and concentrated on developing Barracks (and Docks), in order to improve units and to gain upgrades.
By the time I realised the waste problems I found it extremely difficult to dig myself out of the hole I'd gotten into.

Thanks BJ


_____________________________

Louis

"One might as well try to charge through a wall."
- Napoleon, on St Helena, regarding the British Infantry

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 7
RE: Waste elimination - 7/14/2009 2:32:42 AM   
morganbj


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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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Yeah, once you're at 24% or more, you've really got problems, unles you've got 5 level courts already cookin' in five or six provinces. Always get started on courts when playing France, almost sacrificing everything else. Once I run out of Textiles I'll build something else, but I'm always thinkin' "courts!"

Glad to help.

(in reply to ithuriel2)
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